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mango_prom
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17 Feb 2013, 10:16 am

You know, I've been treated like sh*t before, too. But the question is, can I attribute the prevalence of such behaviour to whether people are HFAs or not? Can we actually predict a tendency towards such actions based on being on the spectrum or not?

So do you have any good reason to conclude that high-functionin autism is negatively correlated with the traits and actions you attribute to NT-behaviour?



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17 Feb 2013, 12:15 pm

I think this thread cannot decide whether or not it is a serious deliberation on what to call people who are not autistic, or whether it's a joke. Both are fine. But the in-between can result in a lot of crap, such as degrading people and dehumanizing those who are different.

That shouldn't happen, especially among groups such as ourselves, who in the end really just want equal footing with everyone else. To push ourselves as higher just dehumanizes US in THEIR eyes.

And what's with the Us vs. Them crap? We're all human, whether we feel like it or not. We need to treat each other as such, no matter what makes us different.

Rant over. Call them whatever you want.



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17 Feb 2013, 1:48 pm

Great post!

My main issue with the term neurotypical is that many use it to differentiate HFA from everybody else, which ignores the vast majority of brain-related conditions. So if some really like the concept of neurodiversity, they have to apply it to things like depression,schizophrenia, mental retardation and so on, too. Doesn't happen because it would completely destroy the notion of AS-superiority. So the label NT makes really no sense at all.

Now if some perpetuate the AS vs NT-myth, it's basically the same as if a white supremacist defends his racial superiority or religious fanatics push their agenda by speaking for their religion as a whole. By dividing the world into 2 sides, I become involved personally because these people claim that certain traits and characteristics separate me from every non-autistic. And I'm not fine with that, just like many muslims don't agree with the notion of holy war. That way a minority can discredit their community as a whole, and I fear that if enough people perpetuate the whole autistic pride thing, it blows up in the opposite direction. How are we supposed to be tolerated and not being recognized as "different" if we use autism itself to define our identity in the first place and actually use a label ourselves?

Reading some of the bs in this thread...people calling non-autistic people "Pathetic Earthlings","Chimps" and so on...
That's a serious question now: What do you think would happen if someone with this attitude towards other human beings would be in a position of power enabling him to persecute "pathetic NTs" without having to fear any legal consequences? Would it be any different from all the dictatorships we've already seen?

And about the whole "I don't know any autistics who commit murder"-thing...I won't even talk about the possibility of HFA actually being more prevalent in criminals than in the normal public, wouldn't surprise me, but you can't even mention the idea on this forum. But let's just say that high functioning autism is just as frequent in criminals than with non-criminal citizens (which the data I know supports). If that's the case, what's the point of the AS vs NT-thing at all? You simply can not predict positive or negative attributes of humans by looking whether they're autistic or not.



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17 Feb 2013, 10:36 pm

Undergarment police. If their children have frequent accidents or they find out you're incontinent, they can be downright nasty. Anyone can be this way, but mostly NTs.


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18 Feb 2013, 12:18 am

mango_prom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I do agree with you, but I was hoping to get an explanation from Slave. Sometimes the best way to educate people about their personal bias is to get them to justify why it's necessary. I just wanted him to justify why it's necessary for people on the high end of the ASD spectrum to perpetuate the myth they have a seperate diagnosis because they can largely pass themselves off as superior to the rest of the autistic community.


I don't even think the problem is an opinion of being superior, but the reasons people have for these opinons. Simply put, if you have good reasons for being racist, homophobic, elitist towards others or whatever...it's fine for me as long as people don't pull these opinions out of their a** without using their brain at all. And I've never read any meaningful explanation of people talking bad about NTs or differentiating themselves from lower-functioning autistics. Just pointless rambling. I mean if they are so rational and smart, why doesn't it show in their posts at all?
And it's actually bad for the spectrum as a whole if "NTs" read that crap.


I have only ever come across a couple of NTs who read or contribute to the general forums. 99% of NTs on WP post on the parent threads. Usually their threads start with....I have a child.who was diagnosed with...can anyone help me!

I remain adamant the biggest losers of posters talking up Aspergers to emphasise difference from so called 'low functioning' people with autism are Aspies themselves. NTs views will always be either condescending, sympathetic or patronising regardless of how much we try and blow our own trumpets over how high functioning we are.



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18 Feb 2013, 12:25 am

mango_prom wrote:
Great post!

My main issue with the term neurotypical is that many use it to differentiate HFA from everybody else, which ignores the vast majority of brain-related conditions. So if some really like the concept of neurodiversity, they have to apply it to things like depression,schizophrenia, mental retardation and so on, too. Doesn't happen because it would completely destroy the notion of AS-superiority. So the label NT makes really no sense at all.

Now if some perpetuate the AS vs NT-myth, it's basically the same as if a white supremacist defends his racial superiority or religious fanatics push their agenda by speaking for their religion as a whole. By dividing the world into 2 sides, I become involved personally because these people claim that certain traits and characteristics separate me from every non-autistic. And I'm not fine with that, just like many muslims don't agree with the notion of holy war. That way a minority can discredit their community as a whole, and I fear that if enough people perpetuate the whole autistic pride thing, it blows up in the opposite direction. How are we supposed to be tolerated and not being recognized as "different" if we use autism itself to define our identity in the first place and actually use a label ourselves?

Reading some of the bs in this thread...people calling non-autistic people "Pathetic Earthlings","Chimps" and so on...
That's a serious question now: What do you think would happen if someone with this attitude towards other human beings would be in a position of power enabling him to persecute "pathetic NTs" without having to fear any legal consequences? Would it be any different from all the dictatorships we've already seen?

And about the whole "I don't know any autistics who commit murder"-thing...I won't even talk about the possibility of HFA actually being more prevalent in criminals than in the normal public, wouldn't surprise me, but you can't even mention the idea on this forum. But let's just say that high functioning autism is just as frequent in criminals than with non-criminal citizens (which the data I know supports). If that's the case, what's the point of the AS vs NT-thing at all? You simply can not predict positive or negative attributes of humans by looking whether they're autistic or not.


Can I be perfectly frank. You may be offended at Aspies being anti-NT. But I can tell you no NT in the history of the world has ever said (or will ever say) OMG! these Asperger people really hate us!

NTs operate in a world where people with disabilities are invisible. I do understand you may be sensitive that the behavior of some people with Aspergers (Anders Brevik or Adam Lanza) may rub off on us in the eyes of NTs. But I can tell you they just look at us people to be pitied and given help.



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18 Feb 2013, 5:48 am

cyberdad wrote:
NTs operate in a world where people with disabilities are invisible. I do understand you may be sensitive that the behavior of some people with Aspergers (Anders Brevik or Adam Lanza) may rub off on us in the eyes of NTs. But I can tell you they just look at us people to be pitied and given help.


About disabilities being invisible...I agree with that. But the term disability is problematic, since AS was always seen a bit "better" than full-blown autism. Just remember the sh*tstorm when news about the DSM-changes were released. And you know, while pity is debatable, being given help sounds just fine to me. I mean if I'm in a wheelchair, it's nice if people try to help me if I can't get somewhere on my own. If I'm deaf or blind, there are people out there working with alternative ways to communicate in order to give me more possibilities of participating in life.
That should actually be the goal for autism, too. It's kind of different since there are many wrong concepts about mental health and psychiatry out there. It appears to be more difficult for people to accept and tolerate neurological conditions opposed to physical ones. Maybe it's because if you see someone with Tourette's screaming or a schizophrenic talking to himself, you have pretty much no idea what's the cause of this, which might freak people out.

And that's one of the main reasons for many problems emerging from being high-functioning autistic. People don't know how to react to autism, but how should they? I understand them, lack of eye contact and body language are associated with negative character traits for a reason...simply because it works most of the time. Unless you're the exception.
And look at movies for example. I might be autistic, but even I know a "good" actor is someone who can copy these behavioural blueprints convincingly. It's automatic, humans simply work that way.

My point is, if we want "them" trying to understand and respect "us", we should do the same and not simply use phrases like "pathetic earthling", "sheep people" and so on.



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18 Feb 2013, 6:05 am

Chronos wrote:
mmcool wrote:
There was a word. "Normal". However some individuals took offence to the implication that they were not normal.


We can't say "normal" - as amongst neurotypicals there are social groups, sub-cultures, etc... that aren't considered normal to the normal people - yet they're not autistic. "Neurotypical" describes anybody who thinks and functions with 'normal' parameters.



riley
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18 Feb 2013, 7:44 am

mango_prom wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
Chimps?

Their behaviour mirrors that of chimpanzees very closely with all the hierarchy stuff, aggression and making loud whooping noises

It's impossible not to be constantly reminded of the similarities

A chimp can rip your arm off and an NT can do serious damage to you as well if sufficiently angered

As with chimps, giving them a wide berth is usually the best option in my opinion

You can watch them in their natural habitat on reality TV programmes like 'Jeremy Kyle' from the safety of your settee :D


Yeah we all know "NTs" are chimps, Jews are filthy rich and secretly rule the world, n*ggers are worhtless filth who deserve to be enslaved, women should stay at home and keep their mouth shut, catholics are child molesters and muslims all terrorists...did I miss anything?

On a more serious note, if you ever wanted some proof for the fact that there is no positive correlation between Asperger's and intelligence, just read some of the posts on this board (in before fluid intelligence crap...). It's such a joke, not every non-autistic hates people on the spectrum. Conversely, some posters on here create their little superior AS-dream world and hate on the rest of the world. It's even worse than "them". Some might hate things they're not used to, but that's still better than hating everybody.
There are lots of "NTs" which are more talented, intelligent and successful than many on the spectrum could ever dream of. And there's the opposite, too. Why rely on dividing reality into good/bad, black/white, AS/NT?
Deal with it, "you"...or "we", since my diagnosis apparently turns me into the next step of evolution are by no means superior to anybody out there.

http://youtu.be/wJYSu2OVCGM

:twisted:



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18 Feb 2013, 8:24 am

mango_prom wrote:
Yeah we all know "NTs" are chimps, Jews are filthy rich and secretly rule the world, n*ggers are worhtless filth who deserve to be enslaved, women should stay at home and keep their mouth shut, catholics are child molesters and muslims all terrorists...did I miss anything?

On a more serious note, if you ever wanted some proof for the fact that there is no positive correlation between Asperger's and intelligence, just read some of the posts on this board (in before fluid intelligence crap...). It's such a joke, not every non-autistic hates people on the spectrum. Conversely, some posters on here create their little superior AS-dream world and hate on the rest of the world. It's even worse than "them". Some might hate things they're not used to, but that's still better than hating everybody.
There are lots of "NTs" which are more talented, intelligent and successful than many on the spectrum could ever dream of. And there's the opposite, too. Why rely on dividing reality into good/bad, black/white, AS/NT?
Deal with it, "you"...or "we", since my diagnosis apparently turns me into the next step of evolution are by no means superior to anybody out there.


Way to put him/her in his place XD - you're my hero of the moment. :D


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18 Feb 2013, 5:41 pm

Thank you, mango_prom. I've been posting on WP a lot, and I mean, I suppose I've found it to be a largely fun and interesting experience, but whenever I come across that kind of anti-NT mindset, I want to scream. We're human first, neurotypical/diverse second.


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18 Feb 2013, 11:15 pm

mango_prom wrote:
My point is, if we want "them" trying to understand and respect "us", we should do the same and not simply use phrases like "pathetic earthling", "sheep people" and so on.


If we want NTs to understand and respect us then we need to understand and respect ourselves don't you think. We are all impacted by autism, some more than others. If there is a percieved deficit this can lead to bullying and ignorance causing frustration and anger at the NTs

Rather than worrying about what NTs think of us, we should ask ourselves "are we comfortable with who we are? I think that is more important. In order to adapt to this society we need to learn life skills to deal with NT society. This is an individual path we are on. What Adam Lanza or Anders Brevik or Joe Schmo did or said to NTs has no bearing on our own destiny or individual lives.



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18 Feb 2013, 11:29 pm

Yuugiri wrote:
We're human first, neurotypical/diverse second.

Spot on; couldn't have said it better.


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18 Feb 2013, 11:49 pm

The ABA Army of Hate. :lol:


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Drone
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19 Feb 2013, 10:59 am

Let's just start calling normal people "the others" and see where it leads.



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20 Feb 2013, 6:21 am

sheepletypicals, or boof heads.


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