Autism speaks is wrong, you can't cure whats not messed up.

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dalurker
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09 Sep 2012, 10:24 am

Curiotical wrote:
dalurker wrote:
There isn't anything sinister of curing something that is a medical condition. Anyone who is part of a sane progressive society should agree with that. You are not talking of autism at all. It's like you're referring to personality, which has nothing to do with developmental disorders.


I'm sorry, but if you honestly believe that Autism has nothing to do with one's personality, then you are obviously an extremely deluded and uninformed individual.


Instead of basically calling someone out of touch, why not explain specifically how autism composes each and all autistics' personalities, and then how cure would endanger that? What is at state to one autistic's personality when another autistic gets a hold of gains in ability through cure, the same abilities that a few other fortunate autistics already have? What does something whose sole purpose is to eliminate mental disability, have to do with personality?



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09 Sep 2012, 10:29 am

STOP YELLING!

Your whole Species is below pity. So dogs can't type, and they rightly do not care. They are happy just being dogs, and that spreads to those around them. Dogs try to make the world a better place.

Autism seems as incurable as the common cold, as the latest research shows that mothers who get a Virus, produce antibodies, that cause immune system problems for the unborn child, which produces autism.

There is nothing to be done about a Virus Mutant.

Never in reality or fiction have people considered a problem and said, "This calls for an Autistic!"

I will never beat up Mike Tyson, I have limits.

I still have a few things I do better than most others, most likely because I do not have a social life, so I put more time in working. No matter how good I get, there are always people who are better, and thousands who could not kick Tyson's ass, but could kick mine.

I am much better than most of them at fixing machines. For that I do get calls.

It is unrealistic to want to be the Homecoming Queen and the Captian of the football team.

99% of people are not noticed at all, wattle through life in a rut, and die.

You had better enjoy dealing with what you have, because it is what you have.

Everyone is messed up, and there is no cure.

Being autistic keeps you out of a lot of the common shared unhappiness. You do not know the misery and suffering you miss.

An hour of spinning the wheel on a toy car is more bliss than most ever know.

Everyone who has not produced endless free energy and cured cancer, is a total waste of time and space.

Behold! The end is near, and it is much too late to repent!

Have fun playing with the universe, because it is having fun playing with you.



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09 Sep 2012, 12:35 pm

dalurker wrote:
Curiotical wrote:
dalurker wrote:
There isn't anything sinister of curing something that is a medical condition. Anyone who is part of a sane progressive society should agree with that. You are not talking of autism at all. It's like you're referring to personality, which has nothing to do with developmental disorders.


I'm sorry, but if you honestly believe that Autism has nothing to do with one's personality, then you are obviously an extremely deluded and uninformed individual.


Instead of basically calling someone out of touch, why not explain specifically how autism composes each and all autistics' personalities, and then how cure would endanger that? What is at state to one autistic's personality when another autistic gets a hold of gains in ability through cure, the same abilities that a few other fortunate autistics already have? What does something whose sole purpose is to eliminate mental disability, have to do with personality?


Uhh you kinda of called a lot of people 'out of touch' with your comment about how anyone who is part of a sane progressive society should like they idea of curing autism. Also as its already been said we are born with autism, so we develop as autistic individuals.....removing the autism would involve so many drastic changes to neurology and genetics it would essentially change them into someone else.

Also what are these abilities you keep referring to that anyone who opposes a invasive cure supposedly has? It is possible to have a disorder and prefer the idea of learning to live with that disorder instead of having people either try to push them into normal behavior through behavioral therapy or alter their neurology and/or genetics in an attempt to rid them of their autism.

And again I have to question what makes you think you can speak for what you consider to be low functioning autistics...many of them can communicate through sign language, even electronic devices or I imagine the lowest of low functioning at least has different reactions to things like distress with unpleasent things, enjoyment with positive things. You have no idea if these people want a 'cure' or if they'd prefer to just be left the way they are and simply have access to support and assistance with things they struggle with.

I don't think you are understanding autism is not just some simple disorder like say depression or anxiety, which if it gets treated in time can in fact go away though that is also provided someone has an environment in which to heal. Autism is a neurological/genetic difference....so to cure one of it neurology and genetics would have to be altered and since those thing also control personality it would in turn alter that persons personality.



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09 Sep 2012, 1:00 pm

dalurker wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

I don't think genetic variations occur after birth..........also what you're talking about might sound wonderful to you, but your talking about genetic modification, preventing genetic 'variations' and such like that is very disturbing to lots of people. Not to mention it almost goes along the lines of eugenics. I mean sure you aren't talking about killing people with autism...but I don't think there would be anything good about humans having the ability to prevent genetic variations or alter peoples genetics once they've been born I can only imagine the many ways in which that would be used wrong.

Maybe there doesn't have to be only 'complex treatments' why not look into ways to improve lives of people with autism, without trying to eradicate the autism?


Genetic variations remain throughout life if unaltered. I'm talking of handling some of them during development when they have certain roles. What is so disturbing? There is no logical reason to think of this as scary. What is so terrible of replacing unproductive variations of genes with functional ones? Not all genetic variations one has are essential to their unique identity. A lot of these objections to such treatments seem to be fear of drastic change. What do you consider improving lives? How much can you improve lives when ones lacks basic skills? Cure IS a way to increase quality of life. What kind of improvement of life is it to just end up dependent on family and the community well into adulthood, going through government agencies that deal with disability to get crappy, confusing low pay jobs due to truly not having any qualifications or enough ability to advance, while being talked to like a criminal by government bureaucrats. What improvement can there be when all ambitions and dreams and even preferences in pursing leisure, are eventually put in the toilet or cut down to pathetic size as they don't match up to one's "innate" abilities/strengths? I bet you're going to say society/community then would have to change and do something to make it turn out better. But not a lot of detail is often shown by those who say such things. What it comes down to for me is my ego and pride. I've become tired of it being eliminated and of being the weak person to be defended or manipulated by others.


Its disturbing because its altering someones very being, in an attempt to make them 'neurotypical' as though anything that's not neurotypical has to be wrong and therefore has to be eliminated. Also I myself have been studied because I had a bunch of blood tests done when I was a kid and they found I did in fact have some genetic 'variations.' It so happens I also have autism......I do not want my genetics altered to get rid of the autism and as a child I wouldn't have either in fact I was very afraid of having weird treatments and things forced on me if It was 'found out' that I was unusual in some way. So that is another thing that bothers me....what if these treatments you describe were forced on a child against their will, I feel that would be more traumatic than helpful for instance.

Also who are you to decide what a fullfilling life is for everyone....you argue that a cure is the only way to improve someones quality of life, well not all neurotypicals have a good quality of life so how would curing one of autism guarantee them a better quality of life? Also not everyone with autism lacks basic skills, some do and the ones who are too disabled to learn the skills should have help and support there is nothing wrong with that.......its called a sense of community when the more abled help the disabled.

Also though what makes you so sure digging around in someones genetics and neurology trying to replace flawed genes with better ones and re-wiring neurology to cure them is really going to work out well? There could be complications that make things worse for them. Take this for example if a mentally retarded person for instance has the mind of a child......living at home being supported by family is probably not something they see as negative.......My point being what's miserable for one type of person might not be miserable for another. I mean what if you then take that mentally retarded person and throw them into a regular work environment and push them to live a more 'adult' life well that to them might be way to overwhelming and scary. As for most neurotypical people they want to be out of their house and on their own and would hate to be stuck living at home.

Also lots of neurotypicals have crappy low paying jobs and such as well, so how would curing someone of autism prevent them from running into that problem. Thing is there is not enough demand for high skilled jobs as there are people looking for those jobs...its not like if you cure someone of autism that means they are going to go on to get a degree that lands them some high paying high skilled job.

Also I don't like being manipulated...and well if someone depends me where appropriate I don't really care, though I don't particularly like my lack of assertiveness. But that is just why this whole cure thing bothers me......what I should be willing to be cured if a cure is created just because some people have it in their heads it would make me a 'contributing member of society' no thanks I'll keep my differences and side with others who'd like to keep their differences.........why because society cannot change without neurodiversity. The very existance of people who function differently than neurotypicals challenges the way our society is set up and helps show that no its not necessarily the most healthy and instead of trying to fix everyone who cannot be assimilated maybe society should be assimilated to better reflect the actual people in it.



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09 Sep 2012, 1:21 pm

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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09 Sep 2012, 5:41 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Uhh you kinda of called a lot of people 'out of touch' with your comment about how anyone who is part of a sane progressive society should like they idea of curing autism. Also as its already been said we are born with autism, so we develop as autistic individuals.....removing the autism would involve so many drastic changes to neurology and genetics it would essentially change them into someone else.

What I say isn't equivalent to what they say. Being born with something doesn't necessarily make it beneficial or inherent to identity.

Quote:
Also what are these abilities you keep referring to that anyone who opposes a invasive cure supposedly has? It is possible to have a disorder and prefer the idea of learning to live with that disorder instead of having people either try to push them into normal behavior through behavioral therapy or alter their neurology and/or genetics in an attempt to rid them of their autism.

To communicate effectively with verbal and non-verbal language. To learn all kinds of things. To do basic activities many do daily. Well, I for one don't prefer living with it. I'm not a depressive. I loathe my lot in life.

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And again I have to question what makes you think you can speak for what you consider to be low functioning autistics...many of them can communicate through sign language, even electronic devices or I imagine the lowest of low functioning at least has different reactions to things like distress with unpleasent things, enjoyment with positive things. You have no idea if these people want a 'cure' or if they'd prefer to just be left the way they are and simply have access to support and assistance with things they struggle with.

First of all, we all know there are many who really are low-functioning. Not just considered to be. And I'm just talking of the realities that many of them face and of ways out of it. How can you speak for them or how can any of the successful aspies that dominate this anti-cure crusade do so either? And I basically lack a lot of functioning myself, so I think I have a right to speak of this topic. How many of them really communicate with sign language? Facilitated communication has been debunked long ago, and not that many are getting full unfettered communication with ipads. A lot of them are miserable. Countless descriptions have proven that autistics in childhood who struggle to communicate get very frustrated over it.

Quote:
I don't think you are understanding autism is not just some simple disorder like say depression or anxiety, which if it gets treated in time can in fact go away though that is also provided someone has an environment in which to heal. Autism is a neurological/genetic difference....so to cure one of it neurology and genetics would have to be altered and since those thing also control personality it would in turn alter that persons personality.

Are you understanding that? I'm not buying these sneaky but very faulty attempts to equate ability characteristics with personality. And I don't hold in high regard the "personalities" of those who would try to obscure those concepts for their own agendas.



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09 Sep 2012, 6:12 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Its disturbing because its altering someones very being, in an attempt to make them 'neurotypical' as though anything that's not neurotypical has to be wrong and therefore has to be eliminated. Also I myself have been studied because I had a bunch of blood tests done when I was a kid and they found I did in fact have some genetic 'variations.' It so happens I also have autism......I do not want my genetics altered to get rid of the autism and as a child I wouldn't have either in fact I was very afraid of having weird treatments and things forced on me if It was 'found out' that I was unusual in some way. So that is another thing that bothers me....what if these treatments you describe were forced on a child against their will, I feel that would be more traumatic than helpful for instance.

It is not someone's very being. There are lots of aspects of neurology and genetics, and not all of them make up their psyche. Aptitudes/skills are just that, but are indispensable means with which to live. Neurotypical doesn't really exist. It's just a construct. Forced on a child? I guess one better not force vegetables on a child and let them eat ice cream for dinner, or not force any of the other things they're told to do. Children don't have complete authority over themselves. I don't know if you are satisfied with your situation without drastic treatments or not. It's not for me to decide that. But many aren't satisfied with their own.

Quote:
Also who are you to decide what a fullfilling life is for everyone....you argue that a cure is the only way to improve someones quality of life, well not all neurotypicals have a good quality of life so how would curing one of autism guarantee them a better quality of life? Also not everyone with autism lacks basic skills, some do and the ones who are too disabled to learn the skills should have help and support there is nothing wrong with that.......its called a sense of community when the more abled help the disabled.

Nobody has a fulfilling life when chained by mental disability. Let's talk realistically. Not all neurotypicals had the strengths they needed to fulfill their dreams/goals. Let's not get complacent with the bandwagon of pessimism and sadness that widespread suffering promotes. Not all think progress is impossible. Help and support isn't going to make up for the opportunities one lost out on or will help their sense of pride. Your idea of community seems like paternalistic hierarchy where the strong defenders of the weak, the do gooders, enhance their reputations and egos in view of their communities, while the weaklings have their own aspirations ignored and are expected to be submissive and grateful for whatever they are handed down.

Quote:
Also though what makes you so sure digging around in someones genetics and neurology trying to replace flawed genes with better ones and re-wiring neurology to cure them is really going to work out well? There could be complications that make things worse for them. Take this for example if a mentally retarded person for instance has the mind of a child......living at home being supported by family is probably not something they see as negative.......My point being what's miserable for one type of person might not be miserable for another. I mean what if you then take that mentally retarded person and throw them into a regular work environment and push them to live a more 'adult' life well that to them might be way to overwhelming and scary. As for most neurotypical people they want to be out of their house and on their own and would hate to be stuck living at home.

If you're so skeptical, why don't you look up some of the research that has and is going on. They wouldn't be doing this if the goal was impossible. You are really considering relative valuation of situations to unreal and extreme levels. There are basic things that are ubiquitously regarded as bad due to nature and the instincts that arose from nature. The rest of what you said doesn't even address the point and is very condescending. By what you refer to as neurotypical, the very high functioning activists who started this anti-cure pro-disability crusade, would have to be considered neurotypical too. Neurotypical doesn't mean non-disabled.

Quote:
Also lots of neurotypicals have crappy low paying jobs and such as well, so how would curing someone of autism prevent them from running into that problem. Thing is there is not enough demand for high skilled jobs as there are people looking for those jobs...its not like if you cure someone of autism that means they are going to go on to get a degree that lands them some high paying high skilled job.

One problem at a time. There are some jobs that aren't being filled due to lack of workers with the necessary skills for them. There are some on and off the spectrum that had to abandon career goals due to not having the aptitudes to learn the subjects.

Quote:
Also I don't like being manipulated...and well if someone depends me where appropriate I don't really care, though I don't particularly like my lack of assertiveness. But that is just why this whole cure thing bothers me......what I should be willing to be cured if a cure is created just because some people have it in their heads it would make me a 'contributing member of society' no thanks I'll keep my differences and side with others who'd like to keep their differences.........

Don't spoil it for me and the others who want it.

Quote:
why because society cannot change without neurodiversity. The very existance of people who function differently than neurotypicals challenges the way our society is set up and helps show that no its not necessarily the most healthy and instead of trying to fix everyone who cannot be assimilated maybe society should be assimilated to better reflect the actual people in it.

That's nonsensical rhetoric drummed up by a small group that wants to screw up the goal.



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09 Sep 2012, 7:04 pm

dalurker wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I don't think you are understanding autism is not just some simple disorder like say depression or anxiety, which if it gets treated in time can in fact go away though that is also provided someone has an environment in which to heal. Autism is a neurological/genetic difference....so to cure one of it neurology and genetics would have to be altered and since those thing also control personality it would in turn alter that persons personality.


Are you understanding that? I'm not buying these sneaky but very faulty attempts to equate ability characteristics with personality.


dalurker, have you ever spent any time around other Autistic people? It doesn't sound to me like you have. My sister is Autistic, as are all of my friends. I spend a lot of time around other Autistic people and one thing I have learned is that Autism really does shape every aspect of our personalities. I stand by my point that to deny this fact shows that you are either uninformed or utterly delusional.

I agree with Sweetleaf in that you obviously do not understand the concept of Autism. It may surprise you to learn that Autism isn't a simple, black and white disorder characterised exclusively by disabling characteristics. To claim that it is is basically to insinuate that I am socially anxious, that I'm easily upset, that I obsess over things, that I stim and that I am a perfectionist, but other than experiencing those problems, I'm perfectly "normal" and that if those problems were somehow removed, I'd be a Neurotypical. This is wrong because the very way that I think and the way that I perceive the world are both completely different from the way that Neurotypicals do these things.

I hope that clarified things for you. If you would like me to continue; don't expect another exciting installment until later tomorrow.


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09 Sep 2012, 7:25 pm

This has been an extremely informative discussion. I highly recommend it for those interested in learning about wide ranging views that exist in the Autism community.


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09 Sep 2012, 7:36 pm

Curiotical wrote:

dalurker, have you ever spent any time around other Autistic people? It doesn't sound to me like you have. My sister is Autistic, as are all of my friends. I spend a lot of time around other Autistic people and one thing I have learned is that Autism really does shape every aspect of our personalities. I stand by my point that to deny this fact shows that you are either uninformed or utterly delusional.

What does that even have to do with the issue of curing impairments in ability?

Quote:
I agree with Sweetleaf in that you obviously do not understand the concept of Autism. It may surprise you to learn that Autism isn't a simple, black and white disorder characterised exclusively by disabling characteristics. To claim that it is is basically to insinuate that I am socially anxious, that I'm easily upset, that I obsess over things, that I stim and that I am a perfectionist, but other than experiencing those problems, I'm perfectly "normal" and that if those problems were somehow removed, I'd be a Neurotypical. This is wrong because the very way that I think and the way that I perceive the world are both completely different from the way that Neurotypicals do these things.

I didn't make that claim that you describe. The disabling characteristics, which impair even basic skills, are saddled on a large proportion of those on the spectrum, with a small percentage of those on the spectrum benefiting from vast amounts of ability and aptitude, having not been permanently touched by disability. If you care so much about your fellow autistics, why don't you share your huge collection of ability with those on the spectrum who currently go without it? The very high-functioning aren't complaining of lacking their autistic personality while they indulge in their huge sets of abilities/aptitudes/"gifts", which they didn't toil to earn.



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09 Sep 2012, 8:57 pm

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It's not fair to expect people with disabilities to contribute more than they can....regardless of if that means its unfair to other though I do not see how not expecting an autistic person to go past their limits is unfair to others. How does that even really effect others or their quality of life?

For your second example it would seem anxiety is the issue that person should have treated, autism and anxiety aren't the same thing....And I could be wrong but I don't think its necessarily anxiety that would prevent someone with autism from speaking. But using that example no the PC police should not arrest people for not falling in love with him.......but at they same time they should not arrest him for having anxiety issues that get in the way of initiating interaction with females. Also what if this individual isn't even interested in finding a mate? should they be forced to overcome the anxiety for the purpose of finding a mate?


It's not fair for either, so how we address it? It does impact others, from quality of work to moral to he has to be part of the team so how do you give him work to do if he's only there once a week.

Second paragraph.

How do you treat the anxiety? Drugs? Therapy? What if the anxiety is caused by the aspergers making it difficult to understand the social cues and other aspects of the situation.

I think you misunderstood the example. I never suggested he should be in trouble for not speaking. Also, if he doesn't want to find a mate or overcome his anxiety, that's fine.

I think you'll find though, the majority of people would rather overcome the anxiety and find someone.



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10 Sep 2012, 1:40 am

Per the link below from the IACC, surprisingly, the Simon's foundation provided by far the most amount of money for Autism Research, in the US, for private organizations in 2010 at 53M, opposed to Autism Speaks 18M, and lists the other private organizations in the US and the dollar amounts donated as follows:

CARD 906K, ARI 386K, ASF 245K, OAR 91K, Safeminds128K, and SAARC 70K.

The total amount of money reported funded for Autism Research in the US in 2010 was 408M, with approximately 335 million dollars funded by10 government organizations, as listed in the linked report below.

Interestingly while autism speaks receives a huge amount of attention for their role in funding research they only fund 4% of the autism research in the US, and Autism research is ongoing in 50 countries across the globe, that in totality contribute hundreds of millions of dollars to autism research in addition to the 408 million dollars reported in 2010, in the US.

There are many subgroups of autism identified by potentially different causes including immune system dysfunction and mitochondrial dysfunction.

There is research ongoing to determine effective treatment for a rare subgroup of individuals on the spectrum associated with abnormal mitochondrial dysfunction, with nutritional supplements as a potential remediation for symptoms, or cure if one wants to describe remediation of symptoms as a cure.

There is also stem cell research that has been FDA approved for a potential remediation of symptoms.

Autism Speaks has nothing to do with either of these research projects, specific to what one could define as research for a cure or remediation of symptoms for select subgroups of individuals on the spectrum.

All the autism spectrum technically is, is a moving target of defined and described diagnostic behavioral impairments determined by organizations like the American Psychological Association APA.

There are potentially an almost unlimited number of causal factors that work together, to contribute to the associated behavioral impairments defined by the APA DSM organization, including developmental, genetic, environmental, epigenetic, and cultural factors.

However, any potential cures for what is defined as subgroups of Autism Spectrum disorders can only fully be measured by remediation of the described behavioral impairments, as the causal factors that work together underlying those behavioral impairments will never completely be understood as they can be potentially influenced by culture and it's byproducts from the time a child is born which is well beyond the potential of full understanding as every human being has a different cultural experience and is influenced by different cultural byproducts.

This is a big part of the reason why when one identifies a person on the spectrum they only identify one expression of an almost unlimited number of human variations of the spectrum. Those variations will soon be described by the APA DSM organization as one complex spectrum, with the new label of Autism Spectrum Disorder.

Autism speaks has a loud marketing voice for awareness efforts, but in reality they play a very small role in funding autism research, as well as determining how the spectrum will be defined and described in the future by the APA DSM organization. 4 percent of the funding for research in the US, is a small sliver of that pie.

Again, it is interesting that Autism Speaks gets most of the research attention in autism online communities, when the organization plays such a small role in funding research. The organization is provided a great deal of additional free advertising as they continue to gain that spotlight, from individuals on the spectrum.

It is likely that Autism Speaks appreciates that continued free advertisement, as every highlighted article with that topic brand name, is another opportunity for one skipping through the forums on various internet sites to do a search on that brand name and see the first three pages of articles from Google that all provide positive information for the Autism Speaks Brand name, even one on the first page that sounds like it might be bad, as well as opportunities to make financial contributions. Other organizations could use some of that free advertisement.

The largest private autism research organization funding three times as much Autism research, the Simons Foundation, doesn't require the extra free advertisement as the funding is provided by the billionaire founder, that controls the destiny of his foundation, with his own money.



http://iacc.hhs.gov/portfolio-analysis/2010/index.shtml#table2-note2



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10 Sep 2012, 10:28 am

http://iacc.hhs.gov/portfolio-analysis/ ... ble2-note2

Question 7: Infrastructure and Surveillance – Subcategories by Funding
(Total Funding: $50,847,064)


I humbly suggest investment in new innovative technology ie FMRI, MRI, CAT, Hybrid combinations, and other brain scanning technology designed specifically for (Autistic) children and (Autistic Children/Autistic Adults) who may have co-morbids or other conditions that prevent traditional brain scanning.


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10 Sep 2012, 1:39 pm

dalurker wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Uhh you kinda of called a lot of people 'out of touch' with your comment about how anyone who is part of a sane progressive society should like they idea of curing autism. Also as its already been said we are born with autism, so we develop as autistic individuals.....removing the autism would involve so many drastic changes to neurology and genetics it would essentially change them into someone else.

What I say isn't equivalent to what they say. Being born with something doesn't necessarily make it beneficial or inherent to identity.

I didn't say it does...also though maybe I should re-word. Its not 'something' like a disease its not a specific illness that can be isolated to a single cause its a difference of neurology so that alone makes it rather different then an illness that can just be gotten rid of. Changes to neurology would have to be made.

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Also what are these abilities you keep referring to that anyone who opposes a invasive cure supposedly has? It is possible to have a disorder and prefer the idea of learning to live with that disorder instead of having people either try to push them into normal behavior through behavioral therapy or alter their neurology and/or genetics in an attempt to rid them of their autism.

To communicate effectively with verbal and non-verbal language. To learn all kinds of things. To do basic activities many do daily. Well, I for one don't prefer living with it. I'm not a depressive. I loathe my lot in life.

So anyone who opposes the invasive cure has these abilities? that is odd since last I checked I do struggle with communication, verbal/non-verbal language and struggle to do many basic activities. I am miserable most of the time but that does not mean I have to want to be cured of my autism......I don't think that would improve my life. But that is my personal opinion, I cannot decide for anyone else if they should want a cure or not.

Quote:
And again I have to question what makes you think you can speak for what you consider to be low functioning autistics...many of them can communicate through sign language, even electronic devices or I imagine the lowest of low functioning at least has different reactions to things like distress with unpleasent things, enjoyment with positive things. You have no idea if these people want a 'cure' or if they'd prefer to just be left the way they are and simply have access to support and assistance with things they struggle with.

First of all, we all know there are many who really are low-functioning. Not just considered to be. And I'm just talking of the realities that many of them face and of ways out of it. How can you speak for them or how can any of the successful aspies that dominate this anti-cure crusade do so either? And I basically lack a lot of functioning myself, so I think I have a right to speak of this topic. How many of them really communicate with sign language? Facilitated communication has been debunked long ago, and not that many are getting full unfettered communication with ipads. A lot of them are miserable. Countless descriptions have proven that autistics in childhood who struggle to communicate get very frustrated over it.

I know there are low functioning autistics, and I am aware of plenty of realities they face. Also I never said I could speak for them, nor am I 'successful'. My point was efforts should be made to understand their perspective, as in if they don't want to undergo risky treatments to be cured that should be respected.....it shouldn't just be assumed the low functioning autistics 'want' to be normal. Also while many of them cannot use proper verbal or non-verbal language there are other ways of communication than body language and talking...maybe some of those should be put to use.

I lack a lot of functioning to and I don't appreciate the implication that I'm some successful person who has it all trying to speak for people who have it worse. I am only suggesting the feelings of those with low functioning autism or higher functioning autism are taken into account when it comes to treatments or cures........what is so negative about me not liking the idea of things like potentially dangerous treatments being forced on low functionging autistics against their will? is it really so bad I think it would be best to get their perspective instead of just assuming they are miserable and want to be cured.

Also I am sure there are those who are miserable and those who get frusterated over not being able to communicate effectively.......hell that even describes me. My issue is more not communicating things correctly rather then an inability to speak at all though and I am pretty miserable. From my perspective however curing me of my autism would not make me less miserable over-all I think there are other approaches that can be used to help than a cure and that is my opinion. I also think since currently there is not a cure more of an effort to look into other approaches to help would be a good thing. Like maybe it isn't totally ridiculous to try and give people with autism a more positive environment to thrive in...maybe educate society, and look into what things do improve the lives of autistic people aside from a cure(they can still look for a cure, but since that may not even ever be possible they should be researching what helps autistic people rather than simply how to get rid of autism or prevent it from occuring in future generations.

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I don't think you are understanding autism is not just some simple disorder like say depression or anxiety, which if it gets treated in time can in fact go away though that is also provided someone has an environment in which to heal. Autism is a neurological/genetic difference....so to cure one of it neurology and genetics would have to be altered and since those thing also control personality it would in turn alter that persons personality.

Are you understanding that? I'm not buying these sneaky but very faulty attempts to equate ability characteristics with personality. And I don't hold in high regard the "personalities" of those who would try to obscure those concepts for their own agendas.


Ok you lost me there......I am not being sneaky nor do I have my own 'agenda' I am expressing my opinions on cures and treatments of autism. So I think you're taking this a little far. Autism is more than 'ability characteristics'.



Sweetleaf
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10 Sep 2012, 1:59 pm

dalurker wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Its disturbing because its altering someones very being, in an attempt to make them 'neurotypical' as though anything that's not neurotypical has to be wrong and therefore has to be eliminated. Also I myself have been studied because I had a bunch of blood tests done when I was a kid and they found I did in fact have some genetic 'variations.' It so happens I also have autism......I do not want my genetics altered to get rid of the autism and as a child I wouldn't have either in fact I was very afraid of having weird treatments and things forced on me if It was 'found out' that I was unusual in some way. So that is another thing that bothers me....what if these treatments you describe were forced on a child against their will, I feel that would be more traumatic than helpful for instance.

It is not someone's very being. There are lots of aspects of neurology and genetics, and not all of them make up their psyche. Aptitudes/skills are just that, but are indispensable means with which to live. Neurotypical doesn't really exist. It's just a construct. Forced on a child? I guess one better not force vegetables on a child and let them eat ice cream for dinner, or not force any of the other things they're told to do. Children don't have complete authority over themselves. I don't know if you are satisfied with your situation without drastic treatments or not. It's not for me to decide that. But many aren't satisfied with their own.

For one neurotypical does exist, it means one has normal neurology....take a psychology class if you don't believe me. Also yeah genetics and neurology pretty much do determine ones psyche, physical characteristics and pretty much every aspect of them, that is scientifically proven so I am not going to debate over that.

Also having a child eat vegtables to get nutrients....is quite a bit difference then forcing a neurological/genetic change on them regardless of how they feel all in the name of making them normal. Those are two very different things, and while children don't have full authority...that doesn't mean its ok to treat them like objects with no feelings or perspectives of their own.


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Also who are you to decide what a fullfilling life is for everyone....you argue that a cure is the only way to improve someones quality of life, well not all neurotypicals have a good quality of life so how would curing one of autism guarantee them a better quality of life? Also not everyone with autism lacks basic skills, some do and the ones who are too disabled to learn the skills should have help and support there is nothing wrong with that.......its called a sense of community when the more abled help the disabled.

Nobody has a fulfilling life when chained by mental disability. Let's talk realistically. Not all neurotypicals had the strengths they needed to fulfill their dreams/goals. Let's not get complacent with the bandwagon of pessimism and sadness that widespread suffering promotes. Not all think progress is impossible. Help and support isn't going to make up for the opportunities one lost out on or will help their sense of pride. Your idea of community seems like paternalistic hierarchy where the strong defenders of the weak, the do gooders, enhance their reputations and egos in view of their communities, while the weaklings have their own aspirations ignored and are expected to be submissive and grateful for whatever they are handed down.

Again with trying to assert that anyone who disagrees with you is irrational. Also I think there are people with mental disabilities that might disagree that they don't have a fullfilling life. That is not up for you to say, you personally feel your disability is preventing you from having a fullfilling life......that does not mean everyone else feels the exact same way about their situation.

Also what the hell are you talking about I have clearly said my reasoning is due to wanting what is best for everyone, and now apparently its for my own ego? No the whole idea is instead of treating people with disabilities or other differences as garbage I think its best to try and create a society in which both neurotypicals and those with neurological differences and various disabilities can thrive and enjoy their lives. What i the hell does that have to do with hierarchy or helping the weak in order to increase reputations and ego for those succeeding.........you're more describing everything I see wrong in the current society then what I would strive for in an improved society.


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Also though what makes you so sure digging around in someones genetics and neurology trying to replace flawed genes with better ones and re-wiring neurology to cure them is really going to work out well? There could be complications that make things worse for them. Take this for example if a mentally retarded person for instance has the mind of a child......living at home being supported by family is probably not something they see as negative.......My point being what's miserable for one type of person might not be miserable for another. I mean what if you then take that mentally retarded person and throw them into a regular work environment and push them to live a more 'adult' life well that to them might be way to overwhelming and scary. As for most neurotypical people they want to be out of their house and on their own and would hate to be stuck living at home.

If you're so skeptical, why don't you look up some of the research that has and is going on. They wouldn't be doing this if the goal was impossible. You are really considering relative valuation of situations to unreal and extreme levels. There are basic things that are ubiquitously regarded as bad due to nature and the instincts that arose from nature. The rest of what you said doesn't even address the point and is very condescending. By what you refer to as neurotypical, the very high functioning activists who started this anti-cure pro-disability crusade, would have to be considered neurotypical too. Neurotypical doesn't mean non-disabled.

Not sure what your implying there, and I was in no way being condecending so if I came off that way it wasn't my intention.

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Also lots of neurotypicals have crappy low paying jobs and such as well, so how would curing someone of autism prevent them from running into that problem. Thing is there is not enough demand for high skilled jobs as there are people looking for those jobs...its not like if you cure someone of autism that means they are going to go on to get a degree that lands them some high paying high skilled job.

One problem at a time. There are some jobs that aren't being filled due to lack of workers with the necessary skills for them. There are some on and off the spectrum that had to abandon career goals due to not having the aptitudes to learn the subjects.

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Also I don't like being manipulated...and well if someone depends me where appropriate I don't really care, though I don't particularly like my lack of assertiveness. But that is just why this whole cure thing bothers me......what I should be willing to be cured if a cure is created just because some people have it in their heads it would make me a 'contributing member of society' no thanks I'll keep my differences and side with others who'd like to keep their differences.........

Don't spoil it for me and the others who want it.

How is my personal disinterest in being cured of my autism going to spoil anything for anyone?

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why because society cannot change without neurodiversity. The very existance of people who function differently than neurotypicals challenges the way our society is set up and helps show that no its not necessarily the most healthy and instead of trying to fix everyone who cannot be assimilated maybe society should be assimilated to better reflect the actual people in it.

That's nonsensical rhetoric drummed up by a small group that wants to screw up the goal.


huh? how is that rhetoric and how is it anything drummed up by a small group who wants to screw up the goal? That was actually my opinion that I've come up with based on my own experiances, knowledge and research. How is it a bad thing to want a society that better reflects all its citizens than some ridiculous standard most neurotypicals don't even live up to? Also what is 'the goal' I was not aware all autistic people are to have the same goal.



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10 Sep 2012, 2:31 pm

dalurker wrote:
Curiotical wrote:

dalurker, have you ever spent any time around other Autistic people? It doesn't sound to me like you have. My sister is Autistic, as are all of my friends. I spend a lot of time around other Autistic people and one thing I have learned is that Autism really does shape every aspect of our personalities. I stand by my point that to deny this fact shows that you are either uninformed or utterly delusional.

What does that even have to do with the issue of curing impairments in ability?


It doesn't have anything to do with curing impairments in ability. The point of that post was to attempt to refute your claim that Autism is only characterised by dis/ability characteristics.

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I agree with Sweetleaf in that you obviously do not understand the concept of Autism. It may surprise you to learn that Autism isn't a simple, black and white disorder characterised exclusively by disabling characteristics. To claim that it is is basically to insinuate that I am socially anxious, that I'm easily upset, that I obsess over things, that I stim and that I am a perfectionist, but other than experiencing those problems, I'm perfectly "normal" and that if those problems were somehow removed, I'd be a Neurotypical. This is wrong because the very way that I think and the way that I perceive the world are both completely different from the way that Neurotypicals do these things.


dalurker wrote:
I didn't make that claim that you describe.


It seems to me that to say that Autism "has nothing to do with personality" and that it only entails ability characteristics is essentially to make the claim I described above.

dalurker wrote:
If you care so much about your fellow autistics, why don't you share your huge collection of ability with those on the spectrum who currently go without it?


I don't have a "huge collection of ability" and even if I did, how the hell would I go about sharing my abilities with other Autistics?!

:shrug:

Furthermore, your description of the anti-cure perspective as being "drummed up by a small group that wants to screw up the goal" is an outright lie. Most Autistics -regardless of their functionality- do not want to be "cured".


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