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OldManDax
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26 Sep 2014, 11:36 am

My former boyfriend, who may be on the spectrum as well, suggested to me that his granddaughter may be on the spectrum because she is manipulative. So I Googled "manipulation asperger" and found sites that caused me to write the following statement.

There is a lot of misinformation, outdated information, and downright wrong information out there about the spectrum. The more one does the actual research on the neurochemistry and neurophysiology of what is going on the more that becomes quite clear. Manipulation is not a sign of being on the spectrum.

"Don't take misbehavior personally. The high-functioning person with autism is not a manipulative, scheming person who is trying to make life difficult. Usually misbehavior is the result of efforts to survive experiences which may be confusing, disorienting, or frightening. People with autism are, by virtue of their handicap, egocentric and have extreme difficulty reading the reactions of others. They are incapable of being manipulative." (http://www.aspergersyndrome.org/Article ... h-Aut.aspx).

Also, this page (http://autism.lovetoknow.com/Asperger_K ... nipulation) has some interesting information that, admittedly, seems to contradict the above statement. Everyone manipulates. The reasons for the manipulation are what is important. When someone with AS is trying to figure out social interactions, especially without guidance, they may come across as manipulative when they are just trying to figure out how to navigate a situation that is overwhelming and confusing. There is no malicious intent.

For example, an AS adult who has had chronic problems navigating the workforce for years may give up ever having a decent paying, long term, interesting job. This can lead to fears of not being able to support oneself. This can lead to getting on disability or, if they are lucky enough to have a supportive or a least tolerant family, living with family. The classic 40 year old living in the basement of his parent's house may sometimes be attributed to AS. The person is not trying to manipulate, he is trying to survive.

I would also suggest that the "Asperger Kids and Manipulation" page referenced above is ill informed if not misleading when it suggests the child is exhibiting "confusion promotion." It states, "The child brings up topics that are related, but not really relevant." Persons on the AS spectrum often see connections between topics that most neuro-typicals do not simply because the AS brain is designed to process excessive amounts of information as apposed to blocking what the brain sees as extraneous information. Asperger Experts goes into this more. The AS person actually sees the connection. It's there. They are not intentionally trying to confuse the situation or manipulate.



calstar2
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26 Sep 2014, 11:46 am

I hate when people, even more when these people are also on the spectrum, like to pretend that all people with high-functioning autism are angelic beings who cannot tell lies or so much as hurt a fly. To be honest, I think the people that believe this tend to be so self-unaware and somewhat in denial. I would like to clarify that I'm 100% talking about people on the higher end of the spectrum.

I can and do manipulate; I know other on the spectrum who can and do manipulate. Everybody manipulates even if their intentions are not harmful. I manipulate to get my feelings across in a way that I'm capable of doing so and in a way that I know they will directly be addressed by the other person whom I want to acknowledge them. Actually, for me, manipulation always comes from a place where I am unable to effectively communicate but I need to get my needs met.



weloveautism
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26 Sep 2014, 12:39 pm

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Last edited by weloveautism on 27 Sep 2014, 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

calstar2
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26 Sep 2014, 12:44 pm

weloveautism wrote:
If you read what you said calstar2, you can see clearly that what you are doing is not manipulating - getting your feelings across is going to be naturally beneficial to you, and also to whomever you are relating them to, in order to have an honest, sincere relationship, which is also a trait of autistic people. You might cleverly convey your feelings to the other person, but from what I read, I do not see how they can be harmed by knowing how you feel.


But it also usually involves trying to evoke a specific response from them. You're right, though, maybe manipulation isn't quite the right word for it, but often times the other individuals do become unintentionally hurt/offended in some way. I will continue to claim that I've been manipulated by other people on the high end of the spectrum, though. Guilt-tripping into getting what they want is undeniably a form of manipulation.



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26 Sep 2014, 12:47 pm

Not all manipulation is bad and I think that word has been stigmatized people will try and sugarcoat it by denying it. I agree it can be unintentional.

That article in the first link is old because I remember seeing it when I was 15 and it was printed off in 1998 for my mother when she was getting information about AS to learn more about it when I was first diagnosed.


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weloveautism
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26 Sep 2014, 12:58 pm

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Last edited by weloveautism on 27 Sep 2014, 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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26 Sep 2014, 1:15 pm

I hate it when people say autistic people can't do this. Every individual on the spectrum is different. I know I have done my share of manipulation, guilt trips for one and having tantrums when I was a toddler to get my way and having crocodile tears and I was good at it. I suppose I lost this ability because I am not able to make fake tears. A small child sees their parent always comes to them when they cry so they learn if they want to their mom or dad or someone, cry so they learn to do fake crying. They may also see when they don't want something so they cry and don't get it, they learn if they don't want to leave or go to bed, cry so it won't happen. Supposedly an autistic toddle does't figure this out so they won't play their parents but I think it depends on the child with it because they're all different and we can't paint them all with the same brush saying none of them do it. Unless I was wrongly placed on the spectrum. :?


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weloveautism
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26 Sep 2014, 1:20 pm

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Last edited by weloveautism on 27 Sep 2014, 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

OldManDax
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26 Sep 2014, 1:30 pm

weloveautism wrote:
Well, trying to get a response is a whole thing in itself: I mean, if you are living with this person, and they are doing something you would like them to stop, for example stop leaving dirty clothes all over the house, then I would say it's pretty natural to get the response of stopping that from them, sometimes by clever means necessary. My point is that whatever you are doing, the result is going to be beneficial for both, but I can totally relate to what you said about them getting offended.
The thing is that so much of what they mean by "socializing" & co. is about changing oneself, one's behavior, one's everything in order to not be offensive to a more, and more demanding audience that seems to no longer be able to take the smallest little hint that perhaps they could improve their current state, with something we (autistic people) suggest.
I understand the difference between being rude, and being honest, but other people are not there yet, and so they get offensive because they are trying to ignore the indicators they get about their situation, and here we are, pointing it out. So if we suggest an improvement of some sort, it is usually met with resistance because they feel attacked, as if our intention was to make them feel badly about where they are, and not to sincerely improve their current situation.
I also understand feeling the need to explain to them that we meant well, and sometimes I found myself in the position of having to explain really basic things, but we just have to accept that unless they are willing to understand the difference between being rude, and being honest - which lies in our intention, something they find difficult understanding because they do not always have everyone's best intentions at heart - we can not explain it to them, it's just a waste of time. Eventually, they will have to learn this, because at this point, I am surprised there is anything left to say that isn't offensive to somebody.


Well stated.



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26 Sep 2014, 1:45 pm

calstar2 wrote:
I hate when people, even more when these people are also on the spectrum, like to pretend that all people with high-functioning autism are angelic beings who cannot tell lies or so much as hurt a fly. To be honest, I think the people that believe this tend to be so self-unaware and somewhat in denial. I would like to clarify that I'm 100% talking about people on the higher end of the spectrum.
.


100% just on the high end 0% on the low end really? Where on the spectrum someone is probably effects how it is done or how effective the manipulation is but not the intent. I find it hard to believe there are no people on the lower ends of the spectrum that do not have ability to be intentionally manipulative or people anywhere on the spectrum that don't attempt to manipulate not just to get basic needs met but for sadistic reasons.


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26 Sep 2014, 1:50 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
calstar2 wrote:
I hate when people, even more when these people are also on the spectrum, like to pretend that all people with high-functioning autism are angelic beings who cannot tell lies or so much as hurt a fly. To be honest, I think the people that believe this tend to be so self-unaware and somewhat in denial. I would like to clarify that I'm 100% talking about people on the higher end of the spectrum.
.


100% just on the high end 0% on the low end really? Where on the spectrum someone is probably effects how it is done or how effective the manipulation is but not the intent. I find it hard to believe there are no people on the lower ends of the spectrum that do not have ability to be intentionally manipulative or people anywhere on the spectrum that don't attempt to manipulate not just to get basic needs met but for sadistic reasons.


I don't have enough experience (basically none IRL, honestly) with it to feel that I can have opinions about it, so that is why I said that. Didn't mean to offend???



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26 Sep 2014, 2:13 pm

weloveautism wrote:
League_Girl, could you give me an example of manipulation you have done, please? I can not not be 100% honest about what I am thinking, so I am trying to understand what you are saying :)



When I was eight, I was so bored in a store while my mom was looking. I was so anxious to leave and it felt like torture being in that store. We were all expected to be on our best behavior. So I thought if I could walk funny and hang my head down and make a weird facial expression, my mom would see how I am "dying" and leave the store. This didn't wok and she just ignored it while I kept on walking that way. She told me days later that was just being a geek and other people will think "look, a geek."

I have tried running away a few times to make my parents feel guilty so I will get out of trouble but I always came home because I had nowhere to go. So this also never worked.

My guilt trip I have done was when I took something literal so I abused the taking days off privilege. I had no idea the intention for requesting days off for work was for appointments or something special like going to a wedding or school thing for your children. So I requested two days off for Werld Al Concert and this was before I found out about the real rules of requesting days off and I had already bought tickets and I couldn't waste the money so I told my boss I had tickets and I could always sell them if I don't go. I got the final last two days off and never again requested another day off.

This was rotten of me when I was a kid because sometimes I would try and get other kids into trouble by telling them to do things they shouldn't be doing and go tell a grown up so I could watch them get punished. This didn't always work because the kid was strong enough to say no and not give in or it backfired or I was caught because my mom saw it all.


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26 Sep 2014, 2:14 pm

I used to often chat with someone online who had severe AS and she told me she used to fake her meltdowns when she wanted to leave a store.


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26 Sep 2014, 2:28 pm

I don't think AS people are such sweethearts per definition. However, it's still misguided to think that certain (un)desirable behaviours are part of the spectrum when in fact they aren't.

If you say ''my brother is such an a*hole and he happens to have AS which complicates it/has some influence'' you don't see me complaining.

If you say ''my brother's an insensitive, horrible rude a*hole because of his AS'' after which people reply with ''yeah... they have murderous instincts don't they'' and ''they're so manipulative!'' I object.

I also object when people say ''he is gifted because he has Asperger's''.

That is all completely unrelated to me thinking AS people are such innocent sweethearts; I know better than that.


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26 Sep 2014, 2:55 pm

calstar2 wrote:
I hate when people, even more when these people are also on the spectrum, like to pretend that all people with high-functioning autism are angelic beings who cannot tell lies or so much as hurt a fly. To be honest, I think the people that believe this tend to be so self-unaware and somewhat in denial. I would like to clarify that I'm 100% talking about people on the higher end of the spectrum.

I can and do manipulate; I know other on the spectrum who can and do manipulate. Everybody manipulates even if their intentions are not harmful. I manipulate to get my feelings across in a way that I'm capable of doing so and in a way that I know they will directly be addressed by the other person whom I want to acknowledge them. Actually, for me, manipulation always comes from a place where I am unable to effectively communicate but I need to get my needs met.


But if you are anything like my son and the other kids talked about on the parenting board, your attempts to manipulate are usually quite transparent and, thus, not likely to have a negative result. We usually kind of know what you are doing and (with experience) even, sometimes, why you are doing it ;)

Sure ASD kids can lie, as well, but there are clear differences in the why and how of it, and many things NT parents think are lies most definitely are not.

What you want from people is for them to see each action CORRECTLY, the same way you intended it, and that is a huge problem for the NT population, which tends to interpret things very differently. It is a much better default to assume no harm intended, than to continuously assume harm when none was meant. The later is the problem more often than not when the NT-ASD communication differences play out in real life. So, we spend a lot of time getting people to drop that; it is really important for advancing communication.


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weloveautism
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26 Sep 2014, 3:04 pm

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Last edited by weloveautism on 27 Sep 2014, 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.