When well meaning NT people misrepresent AS people.

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I hate when people make assumptions. That is probably the single thing I find most annoying about people in general. Someone being manipulative isn't a sign of anything really, because everyone does do it for one reason or another. Manipulation isn't even an inherently bad thing, it depends on what the intent is. Unless it's to the extreme of course, and totally based in selfishness, but that would be more indicative of antisocial personality disorder or another PD, not AS.

...yeah. This.
There are a lot of ways to be manipulative and acts of manipulation require more or less understanding of how people work. I have not run across a definition restricting manipulation only to malicious intent. But since the poster has now seemed to entirely withdraw from the conversation [???what the...???] we'll never know.

In common use, however, we do have to understand that people usually consider manipulation a bad thing, at least when applied to personalities and the actions of humans towards other humans. That is why I, as a parent, don't want the term getting attached to ASD, and am much happier having professional summaries assume that ASD children rarely are manipulative. Manipulation is considered something to be punished and suppressed, without ever letting the manipulator get what he wants. But when an ASD child is attempting to manipulate a situation, it is usually coming from a NEED, and treating the child as "manipulative" can prove disastrous.

Seriously, when it comes to the needs of the ASD community, you do not want people to see you as manipulative. It is, actually, a common assumption for some ASD behaviors, to attach the label manipulative, but that will mean you get beat further into a corner and have less chance of getting your needs met. It gets over applied far more often than it gets under applied. I realize that in the literal meaning of the word it does not always have to be a bad thing, but the way NTs are using the term: it IS a bad thing. I think you are MUCH better off letting the NTs over generalize on this one.

After I got diagnosed, I read the literature saying that people on the Autistic spectrum could not lie and manipulate. So through my teens I tried lying and being as manipulative as possible in an effort to "cure" myself.

Oh Dear. I did notice the word tried.

Yeah, I found it's not something that comes naturally to me....

Still, to some extent it does help refute these over-simplistic generalisations saying that people on the Autism spectrum are incapable of lying and manipulation, we're just as diverse as neurotypicals.

I don't understand why someone else who does not identify as being on the spectrum feels it is appropriate to dictate what is "better" for me, as a person who identifies as autistic, or for other people on the spectrum- the community as a whole. Yes, you are a parent but that doesn't mean that lying or manipulating- which is what one is doing [you] when altering the literal meaning of a word when one [you] knows and understand that the word in reality means something else- is appropriate.

Maybe presenting your kid as what they are and asking that people accept them rather than asking people put them on a pedestal would be more helpful and assist them further on in life.

Autistic people can be manipulative, be jerks, be rude, lie, cheat, basically be as unpleasant as any other person- neurotypical or not. To pretend we don't have that capability is to present us as some kind of untouchable, pitiful, fragile being- to be forever handled with the proverbial kid gloves.

Do you really want your child in a world like that? To be treated as some untouchable "angel" and not be seen as an actual human being, respected and valued for who they actually are? Treated for their talents, as people respond to them for the good *and* bad in them so they can continue to learn and grow?

...playing into the misconception of anything just continues the problem, letting it grow.
Honestly, you are part of the problem if you play into it- and you are encouraging those on the spectrum to do so rather than speak louder for what they want and need. It is an absurd notion.

And, seriously when it comes to the needs of the ASD community, I appreciate that you are a parent, but I am a person within the community. Though I don't represent the entire community, you sure as hell can't suppose what is best for an entire group of people and it's totally inappropriate that you assume you could. Particularly when you don't identify as part of that group. Particularly when you support the idea that the group cower and deny who and what they are rather than stand up and demand what they need.

It's offensive and patronizing. Oh Dear. Did you not realize that?

Excellent points SignOfLazarus!

To pretend that we aren't capable of lying and manipulation is lying and being manipulative anyway!

I think you need you need to check your priviledge before you prescribe what is good and what isn't good for us DW_a Mom.

I disagree, and feel DW_a_mom is just seeing things from a different (not patronizing) perspective. It's not about presenting people with ASD as fragile and incapable beings, but not playing to the homicidal loner who hides in the basement stereotype.

I do believe we can be manipulative or calculating, but it stems as much from a necessity of functioning as maliciousness. We have to process social engagement step by step, which may come across as the latter to the uninformed.

In this world of sound bites and short attention spans, why not focus on the positive?

If you had any idea how many good kids get labeled as bad kids, I think you would understand where I am coming from in this.

As adults, you can advocate for yourselves. It doesn't matter what the world thinks; you can set people straight about who you, uniquely, are.

But an 8 year old? No, they can't. And when they get labeled as manipulative, it is highly destructive. It is path they get locked onto that they may never get off of, and they will never understand why the world sees them so negatively. And it keeps people from being willing to meet their needs; it means that everything the child tries to get will be refused, because that is the protocol for manipulation: NEVER give into it. I have SEEN this. I KNOW how destructive it is for the kids. Get the parent to change their thinking, to believe it is highly unlikely their child is being intentionally and negatively manipulative, and everything gets better in the family.

I am sorry if this sounds preachy, but your advocacy isn't just about YOU, it is also about how it affects those children who can't advocate for themselves, and what the messages their parents hear will translate into. I know how NT parents think, even if I'm not really one of them (we have no idea what my ASD status is or isn't, just that I'm not quite like my diagnosed son, but nothing like my NT neighbors and friends, either).

As for changing the term of the word, *I* did not change it, SOCIETY already has. Calling someone manipulative has ONLY negative connotations in current, common usage. It doesn't matter what the dictionary says when everyone else sees the word as something else.

I am NOT saying you can't try to add some nuance to the literature, noting that as with everyone else, ASD individuals vary, but I AM suggesting you tread VERY carefully on this one, for the sake of the kids. I've seen a side of this that you all don't seem to be aware of, that is all.

I think our responsibility to autistic children is to allow them to articulate and argue for their own needs, and step out of their way when they become capable of doing so.

I don't think lying to make life easier for bigots is the best way forward. If autistic children have a hard life because their parents bigotry, then their parents are squarely to blame.

We aren't talking about lying, we are talking about what to emphasize and focus on. Nor are we talking about bigotry, but the way well-meaning people interpret a word and misunderstand their children.

People and real life have nuance; it isn't black and white. You have to consider and address the nuance if you want to have effective advocacy.

And an 8 year old autistic child, even a verbal one, is not going to be able to articulate his needs in a way the grown ups around him can understand. NO 8 year old child can. Shoot, even 14 year old and 17 year children have a lot of trouble with it. To say they need to be allowed to articulate and argue for themselves is unrealistic. Ideally, of course that is what everyone wants. But kids don't have enough language to properly express all the complicated feelings and thoughts they have. If my son could have, I would never have needed to join here, but he couldn't. And he was a VERY articulate child with an expansive vocabulary. But he couldn't understand his own feelings, much less articulate them. It has been amazing to hear the thoughts of adults with the same condition, I NEEDED to know what was going on in his head when he "needed" to pace, or "needed" to chew, couldn't exercise the self-control to stop a pending meltdown, or couldn't manage to complete a simple worksheet of problems he could easily solve. He was NOT able to tell me in a way I could understand or find actionable. So to think that no one has to advocate for the kids, and they just need to be allowed to advocate for themselves, is nuts. There has to be an interpreter. Not some big organization like Autism Speaks; to try to interpret for an entire population of kids is ridiculous. But for the one, individual, unique child.

ALL I've said in this thread is that if the NT world is going to make an assumption one way or another about if ASD kids manipulate (meaning the negative way the word is currently used in the NT population, when referring to individuals), it will be better for the children if the adults start from the assumption that negative manipulative behavior from an ASD child would be unlikely. And I do believe that it is unlikely, so it surprises me that anyone would be so vehemently opposed to that as a starting assumption.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 07 Oct 2014, 6:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

^^^ Well stated.

With the perception of that a lot of people want a Aspergers diagnosis to be like Sheldon of the Big Bang theory or to excuse bad behavior I am worried that fictitious disorder will be considered a comorbid condition of Autism , particularly what is colloquially known as Aspergers. I know the Blogger "Girl Outside the box" post Asperger diagnoses let down her guard down and went for psychiatric help on unrelated matter to a generalist who diagnosed her with a factious disorder. The "proof" she spoke well, she mimicked, her advocacy on Youtube. With that diagnosis on her record both her and her child was refused necessary medications

DWamom, you speak the truth. If only more parents thought like this.(Can you adopt me? Just kidding)
I'm not saying autistic people are incapable of manipulation, and I have seen a few people I suspect are ASD that could be quite manipulative.(In a negative sense) But from what I've picked up in these forums , and speaking only from my own experience, it's much less likely than in NT populations. I, and many people here are often honest to their own detriment.

But strangely enough, a lot of ASD people have to learn to "manipulate" people and situations just to survive. Society puts a negative spin on "manipulation" , but it also has a hypocritycal stance to honesty and integrity; which many ASD people adhere to: and builds stereotypes about people that are NOT LIKE THEM. So what does one do ? One either is a person of honesty and integrity; or one "plays the system " , whether efficiently or not. If one is going for a job interview, one does not answer truthfully to questions : ones gives "stock standard answer to stupid question that has nothing to do with the job." If form asks: " do you have a disability that could affect your performance " one writes "no" , because otherwise they will hire someone with no qualifications or experience, because they have preconceived ideas of what "disabled" people are capable of, and you will have no recourse as they will make up some excuse as to why you didn't get hired. If you are off sick due to depression, you tell everyone it was the flu, because depressed people are incapable. ( Despite you being the best worker in the department)

I'm not happy lying and manipulating, but sometimes, the alternative means you are unemployed, hungry and homeless.
They lie and manipulate, and the only way to survive is to do the same. I wish it were different.

Absolutely right!! ! You have to be manipulative in some ways to function in society. Since it's not innate to autistic people, it has to be learned (like other social skills), yet when Autistic kids try to do this, they are labelled and punished for doing so.

In this case DW_a_mom seems to be lacking in nuance.



It is the parents responsibility to educate themselves about autism as best they can so that they can respond to the childs needs in the most appropriate way. I don't think replacing one falsehood with another like you seem to advocate is the best way of doing this.

Many bigots have good intentions too



This is why parents have a responsibility to listen carefully to what the child needs, instead of speaking over them and making assumptions or prescriptions without listening. If they refuse to educate themselves or listen to their children, then they have failed morally.

I think some parents get addicted to being "campaigning mommies", assume they know best about their kids, and get on their own soapbox and spout their opinions without consulting other autistics or even their own children. Even when autistic kids come of age and are articulate, they are overlooked or pushed to the side by these parents.



Don't talk to me like I am one of your children, you cannot expect me to respect you and your position if you make condescending remarks like this. Like I have said before, as a neurotypical, you need to check your privelidge when talking to people on the spectrum.