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androbot01
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27 Feb 2015, 11:00 am

Yeah, but it is possible over time for them to become familiar and accepting. Look at the popularity of Sheldon.

But you're right. There does seem to be something unique to autism that fills people with ... fear, disgust? I'm not sure. I hope familiarity leads to acceptance, but probably not in my lifetime.



aspiesavant
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27 Feb 2015, 11:15 am

BuyerBeware wrote:
"If you want to come to America, that's fine. But, if you want to come to America, you need to become an American."


That used to be the prevailing attitude, yes.

Today, however, that attitude is very politically incorrect.

Today, we're all supposed to embrace people of minority ethnic groups, minority religions, minority gender identities, minority sexual preference, etc.

If it's possible for society to consider transgender people as "normal", it should most definitely be possible for them to consider Autistic people as "normal".

BuyerBeware wrote:
By a margin of 38:1, they're the majority. Democracy rules.


There's no such thing as "democracy".

Plutocracy/oligarchy rules. And it is through the media and education system that the masses are socially engineered to embrace the plutocracy's agenda as their own.

BuyerBeware wrote:
They built the social structures, they wrote the rules, they have the privilege of doing so because they're on top and we're not.


They may be on top today, but I'm not so sure that has always been the case.

BuyerBeware wrote:
It's their sandbox. If we want to play, we're going to play by their rules.


I don't see why we should.

BuyerBeware wrote:
If we want to be liked, we have to be likable. If we want to be likable, we have to do what they want until and unless they choose to throw us a bone.


No one likes a spineless lap dog.

"Neurotypicals" and Autists alike tend to have far more respect for someone who stands up for himself/herself and what he/she believes in than a meek conformist.

BuyerBeware wrote:
It's a neurotypical world.


It used to be a straight world.
Gender used to be a binary notion.

Just the last two decades, public opinion radically changed in that area, even though the LGBT community remains but a small minority of the general population.

I see no reason not to at least try to change public opinion in our favor similar to how LGBT activists have been trying to do the same for their community.



ASPartOfMe
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27 Feb 2015, 12:34 pm

I understand and frankly very slowly coming to understand even more with our social issues and aversion to conflict it is going to take us longer then some of these other groups. Little chance is better then no chance at all. No chance at all if we say it's their world nothing we can do. If we do that not only will we not gain but we will lose the gains we have and it will be back to the 1950's sans the good economy of at least some merit hiring of those days. I saw on the news the other day in NYC a teacher was arrested and fired for attacking an autistic kid. This is not true everywhere many communities have supported the teachers that do this, but it is an example of progress. There are many powerful groups that want the definition of Autism to go back to those days and without resistance they are guaranteed to get what they want. I predict "nuerodiversty" supporter will equal fictitious disorder if this happens.

I grew in the old school days and have no desire to go back there.
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02 Mar 2015, 8:33 pm

Eh you could argue one way or the other because autism is a wide spectrum. For those who are severe, neurodiversity is wrong because the condition then becomes disabling outside of a purely social context; it becomes much more than "I can't achieve my full potential because people see me as different." because the condition would make it impossible to function even "in a vacuum" because of low intelligence, extreme sensory issues,etc. So in that sense neurodiversity is wrong. Now for those who are very mild, it may only be "bad " in the sense that your weaknesses are not the same as other people's. You may have the same level of weaknesses and strengths as other people, yet your weakness just happens to be different from most people's. So you are forced to live in a world that is not accommodating or understanding of your weakness. Yet, you may be better off than an NT - because perhaps you have a skill set that the average NT does not have. Now I agree, most people on the spectrum don't have such a wonderful prognosis (high unemployment), so in that case you are right.

Now the medical view is also right- it is an abnormality that should be diagnosed- just like being covered in purple fur would be. There should be a "cure" in the sense of making everyone with the "aspie neurotype" more able to function well in society (better at faking NT) while still having the "aspie neurotype".



Last edited by GoofyGreatDane on 02 Mar 2015, 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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02 Mar 2015, 8:41 pm

BuyerBeware wrote:
There's an easy answer for "What is it about autism".

It's the same answer as "What is it about XXX culture" or "What is it about XXX language."

Accommodating us forces them out of their comfort zone in a fundamental way.

They can be tied in knots to come into our comfort zone, or we can be tied in knots to come into theirs.

"If you want to come to America, that's fine. But, if you want to come to America, you need to become an American."

They're the majority. By a margin of 38:1, they're the majority. Democracy rules. They built the social structures, they wrote the rules, they have the privilege of doing so because they're on top and we're not.

It's their sandbox. If we want to play, we're going to play by their rules. If we're going to be accorded any consideration, to continue the metaphor, it's going to be because their mothers taught them to play nicely, and they like us and feel like doing as their mothers taught them.

If we want to be liked, we have to be likable. If we want to be likable, we have to do what they want until and unless they choose to throw us a bone.

It's not nice, it's not fair, and it's not really right. If the positions were reversed-- if the majority was on our side and the wiring currently known as "NT" was the 2-and-some-fraction-percent minority-- it wouldn't be nice or fair or right to them, and they would be the ones tied up in knots, shut out, and hurting.

That's the reality down here on the ground.

All the chest beating, head banging, and CO2 emission in the world isn't going to change that.

It's a neurotypical world. End of line.


That all sounds very self defeating...in other news societies are not solid they are more fluid and can thus be adjusted to better accommodate everyone within it. But people have to say something about it not just go along with BS like that and try to justify some kind of 'neurotypical' privilege...I think challenging that is better than going along with it but that's just me.


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Sweetleaf
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02 Mar 2015, 8:46 pm

GoofyGreatDane wrote:
Eh you could argue one way or the other because autism is a wide spectrum. For those who are severe, neurodiversity is wrong because the condition then becomes disabling outside of a purely social context; it becomes much more than "I can't achieve my full potential because people see me as different." because the condition would make it impossible to function even "in a vacuum" because of low intelligence, extreme sensory issues,etc. So in that sense neurodiversity is wrong. Now for those who are very mild- perhaps not even most aspies- autism/asperger's becomes more like being born with purple hair all over your body- the condition is mostly disabling only in the sense that you find it hard to reach your full potential because people think you are different. An aspie and an NT will both have strengths and weaknesses, but because the aspie's area of weakness is not typical, he or she will be judged more harshly than an NT would for his weaknesses. This can lead to underemployment. An aspie may immediately be seen as inferior simply because his deficiencies in nonverbal communication can make him look "different/retarded" in a photograph, or because he has a stutter or something. People will accept someone of a different nationality who has mild difficulties with social interaction and communication, but will not accept the aspie- why is that?

Now the medical view is also right- it is an abnormality that should be diagnosed- just like being covered in purple fur would be. There should be a "cure" in the sense of making everyone with the "aspie neurotype" more able to function well in society (better at faking NT) while still having the "aspie neurotype".


My autism is disabling in other ways aside from just the general social issues, my sensory issues are pretty severe and a number of other things...but I still do not see how that makes neurodiversity 'wrong' that's pretty much saying its wrong for people more disabled by it to exist which doesn't solve anything or provide help for any of those more severe issues....many who are more severely effected than your example of a very high functioning individual with aspergers still don't agree on your perspective.

Also no the goal should not be to make people on the spectrum better at faking being NT, that just defeats the whole purpose.


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aspiesavant
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03 Mar 2015, 5:39 am

GoofyGreatDane wrote:
Eh you could argue one way or the other because autism is a wide spectrum. For those who are severe, neurodiversity is wrong because the condition then becomes disabling outside of a purely social context; it becomes much more than "I can't achieve my full potential because people see me as different."


"Neurotypicals" range from mentally challenged to genius. The same applies to Autists.

I don't see why we should blame an individual being mentally challenged or otherwise incompetent any more on his/her Autism than we should blame it on him/her being "neurotypical".

My Autism is as much the source of my greatest strengths is it is the source of my greatest weaknesses. And from my perspective, it's not so much Autistic people but rather "neurotypicals" who are handicapped, due to their being far more prone to prejudice, sensitive to indoctrination, etc.

It's all in the eyes of the beholder, really. It's all a matter of perspective.

GoofyGreatDane wrote:
Now the medical view is also right- it is an abnormality that should be diagnosed


They used to say that about homosexuality.

Norms can change.



Fruglepug
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04 Mar 2015, 11:15 am

BuyerBeware wrote:


It's a neurotypical world. End of line.


That's what I was trying to say - thanks!



Sweetleaf
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04 Mar 2015, 11:34 am

Fruglepug wrote:
BuyerBeware wrote:


It's a neurotypical world. End of line.


That's what I was trying to say - thanks!


Trouble is that is hardly true....most societies however cater to neurotypicals, but doesn't mean it has to be that way or its then end all/be all state of things or whatever like some of you enjoy suggesting. It's a neurodiverse world, society ought to make way and get on with the reality check already.


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Acedia
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06 Mar 2015, 6:24 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
"Neurotypicals" range from mentally challenged to genius. The same applies to Autists.


No it doesn't, because intellectual disability is far more common in people with autism than it is in the general population.

Autism isn't a part of "neurodiversity", it's an abnormality, and I have no qualms with that. It's better to be honest about it rather than indulging romantic myths about autism.

Quote:
My Autism is as much the source of my greatest strengths is it is the source of my greatest weaknesses. And from my perspective, it's not so much Autistic people but rather "neurotypicals" who are handicapped, due to their being far more prone to prejudice, sensitive to indoctrination, etc.


Your supremacism is silly, and the irony being is that you might not even be on the spectrum. You're someone who has conflated a stereotype with a condition.

Lots of neurotypicals are nerds, humanists, outspoken against perceived injustices - while there are people on the spectrum that are none of those things and who are prejudiced, sensitive to indoctrination....



Jono
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07 Mar 2015, 6:25 am

Acedia wrote:
Quote:
My Autism is as much the source of my greatest strengths is it is the source of my greatest weaknesses. And from my perspective, it's not so much Autistic people but rather "neurotypicals" who are handicapped, due to their being far more prone to prejudice, sensitive to indoctrination, etc.


Your supremacism is silly, and the irony being is that you might not even be on the spectrum. You're someone who has conflated a stereotype with a condition.


First of all, how is this supremacism? Secondly, how do you know that he might not be on the spectrum? His profile actually says that he has an official diagnosis.

Acedia wrote:
Lots of neurotypicals are nerds, humanists, outspoken against perceived injustices - while there are people on the spectrum that are none of those things and who are prejudiced, sensitive to indoctrination....


So?



aspiesavant
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07 Mar 2015, 10:16 am

Acedia wrote:
aspiesavant wrote:
"Neurotypicals" range from mentally challenged to genius. The same applies to Autists.


No it doesn't, because intellectual disability is far more common in people with autism than it is in the general population.


So is genius!

In fact, the two greatest scientists of the 20th century are Alan Turing and Nikola Tesla. Both almost certainly were Aspies.

The same way women on average are more average than men, "neurotypicals" on average are more average than Autists. In that sense Baron-Cohen's notion of Autism as extreme masculinity definitely holds up!

Acedia wrote:
Autism isn't a part of "neurodiversity", it's an abnormality, and I have no qualms with that. It's better to be honest about it rather than indulging romantic myths about autism.


Genius may be an abnormality.

Acedia wrote:
Quote:
My Autism is as much the source of my greatest strengths is it is the source of my greatest weaknesses. And from my perspective, it's not so much Autistic people but rather "neurotypicals" who are handicapped, due to their being far more prone to prejudice, sensitive to indoctrination, etc.


Your supremacism is silly, and the irony being is that you might not even be on the spectrum. You're someone who has conflated a stereotype with a condition.


First of all, I have an official diagnosis. In fact, I got my diagnosis from one of my country's greatest experts in the field, just to be certain the diagnosis is reliable. For him, the diagnosis was pretty obvious.

Second, I'm a former Mensa member. I left the organization because I don't see the point of an organization based on IQ only and that impression didn't change as a member, but I do (still) meet the qualifications for membership.

Autism truly is as much the source of my greatest strengths is it is the source of my greatest weaknesses. I could generalize this by saying that every strength typically has a weakness to compensate it. There's very few "supermen" or "superwomen" out there with great strengths but few or barely expressed weaknesses.

Our bodies commonly compensate for the strengths we have with weaknesses of equal greatness. As such, great weaknesses commonly come with great strengths... and those with few weaknesses tend to have few strengths as well.

Acedia wrote:
Lots of neurotypicals are nerds, humanists, outspoken against perceived injustices - while there are people on the spectrum that are none of those things and who are prejudiced, sensitive to indoctrination....


Absolutely. I've met individuals who belong in both categories.

On average, though, Aspies tend to be more openminded and less sensitive to indoctrination.



HDLMatchette
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09 Nov 2019, 8:40 pm

Anybody who's skeptical of neurodiversity should really consider reading something from a mother of a high-support needs autistic: http://www.thinkingautismguide.com/2018 ... esand.html



Robert312
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24 Nov 2019, 5:06 pm

Throughout my life, I had trouble making friends, had bad luck in the romance department and have always been underemployed. My Aspergers is a disability that greatly affected my life. I now know why I had those problems. Like any other disability, measures need to be taken to educate people about this. The neurotypical status quo failed me and fails others like me; that is the reason for the neurodiversity movement. Things like tailoring jobs to fit the individual cam benefit everybody. Letting a night owl come in later could improve his effectiveness.


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ASPartOfMe
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24 Nov 2019, 6:59 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I don't know why we should have be given no quarter as far as others accepting and thus accommodating us when it is ok for these other groups to get that acceptance. Homosexuality was considered a disorder in the DSM. Homosexuals were considered unfit to teach because they would propagandize children. You could be arrested for having sex with a person of the same gender. Psychiatry believed homosexuals can never be happy or have a long term relationship. Back then there no way I or anybody who was not delusional would expect to see homosexual sex legal, never mind marriage. Some of my attitudes back then would be considered pre historic today. You may be right in that Autistics may never be accepted. I don't know, I can't foretell the future and neither can you. What I do know I have seen so many things that I was absolutely positive would never happen, but they did. That is why I won't give up.


In the 5 years since I wrote this Autism Speaks has added 3 autistic board members and dropped “cure” from its mission. We have seen lead autistic characters in a Hollywood blockbuster and in a hugely popular network TV show. An autistic teenager is leading a significant political movement. None of these things did I envision at the time I wrote the above.

While the OP has not posted here in a long time anti ND autistic activists Jonathan Mitchell and Tom Clements have had their articles published in mainstream publications. That autistic people instead of just NT researchers and charities with this view is being published is progress.

Recently John Elder Robison wrote that there is a place for both the medical and social model of disability. While I still agree with everything I wrote in this thread back then my view has evolved to accept that there are actual impairments involved with autism that co exist with the many things that are thought of as impairments that are not impairments because of majority judgements.


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26 Nov 2019, 3:29 pm

Look, the Neurodiversity vision is well-intentioned, and very appealing.

Would I love it if I waved around an "Autism Pride" flag and declared that I was simply an oppressed minority demanding respect and acceptance, everyone congratulated me and society dramatically changed so that we were all more direct and communicative with each other, didn't judge each other as "weird" or "crazy" and all danced off together into the sunset? Yes, of course I would love that.

Is it realistic? Absolutely not. People love the whole "autism acceptance" thing until it dawns on them that that means confronting people who make you uncomfortable every time they do so, because who knows? They might be autistic. Accepting and loving people who tick off all the NT boxes for mental illness or just being a jerk because they might be misunderstood Autistics.

Also, like others have said, some people do suffer with disability. It's not nearly as costly for society to stop being dicks to PoC or LGBT people, who really just suffer from unnecessary stigma due to an arbitrary label, than it is to try to accommodate all of us on the spectrum with our neverending diversity with regards to needs and behavior, so that none of us feel "disabled". And many do want a cure or at least better medical treatment for symptoms, but ASAN rarely gives them a voice...

I think the best way to go would be to find "pockets" of acceptance, community centers with rules and accommodations for those of us on the spectrum. They'd include AS, NTs with AS traits, empathetic NTs, etc. And self-disclosure would not be necessary to gain acceptance in that pocket of society. And those of us who want medical treatment can get it. (I'm not taking credit for that idea btw, a lot of users on here have discussed something similar.)


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