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Alexanderplatz
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08 Jun 2016, 3:27 pm

@darmok - this film looks like an excellent timely reminder, thanks for the link



ASPartOfMe
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09 Jun 2016, 1:50 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Of course people are going to take it personally if you call them names. While there is institutional privilige and ism's there is individual versions of these things also. And these insititutions are made up of individuals. If you are not part of the problem you should not be guilt tripped for it.


But if one is and merely refuses to recognize it they deserve to be identified as such, even if it hurts their tender feels. One who doesn't wish to be labelled in a certain way shouldn't behave in a way consistent with that label otherwise the label is applicable.


That might mean said individual is uninformed, it might mean said individiual is racist or actually privilaged, it might mean the individual just does not agree with whatever agenda the Social Justice Warrior is pushing or maybe the individual Social Justice Warrior ought to check thier arrogance. Some SJW's mocking others feelings, really?


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funeralxempire
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13 Jun 2016, 11:12 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Of course people are going to take it personally if you call them names. While there is institutional privilige and ism's there is individual versions of these things also. And these insititutions are made up of individuals. If you are not part of the problem you should not be guilt tripped for it.


But if one is and merely refuses to recognize it they deserve to be identified as such, even if it hurts their tender feels. One who doesn't wish to be labelled in a certain way shouldn't behave in a way consistent with that label otherwise the label is applicable.


That might mean said individual is uninformed, it might mean said individiual is racist or actually privilaged, it might mean the individual just does not agree with whatever agenda the Social Justice Warrior is pushing or maybe the individual Social Justice Warrior ought to check thier arrogance. Some SJW's mocking others feelings, really?


No doubt, everyone has blind spots and one shouldn't start from the assumption that malice is the motive behind someone's actions. That said, if an attempt to correct the behaviour was made and no change in behaviour resulted the next time around it's much more reasonable to assume the behaviour is intentional and that it should be confronted as such.

If the agenda one disagrees with is treating people with dignity, that's not a fault with said agenda, that's a fault within the person denying others basic dignity. And yes, bullies who intentionally offend others but get butthurt when they're called out for it are fair game for being mocked. If one can't 'take it' they shouldn't insist on 'giving it'.


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13 Jun 2016, 8:46 pm

I tend to part ways with the SJ crowd over a number of issues, most conspicuously their contempt for free speech. I feel like they don't think they need to persuade, they'll just use force, whether that's judicial/administrative force in the form of college government or "hate speech" laws were they exist, financial force in the form of boycotts, or more perniciously for me, pressuring employers of political opponents to fire them, or social force, usually the dreaded twitter mob in this case. I have nothing but contempt for those who would silence an opposing argument rather than defeating it with a superior one, and the number one promoter of that style of coercion these days is the social justice movement.

Then there's the racial and gender segregation they promote through their byzantine system of "allyship" and safe spaces, the constant catastrophism, the misuse of academic language in the form of thought termination cliches, and so on and so forth. Growing up, this was the kind of stuff I associated with the Christian Right, it's been a rude realization that it's the young progressive left I should have been worrying about the whole time.


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Barchan
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13 Jun 2016, 9:22 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Then there's the racial and gender segregation they promote through their byzantine system of "allyship" and safe spaces,


I notice you put the word "allyship" in quotation marks, do you have any specific issues with the concept of allyship you can clarify?



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13 Jun 2016, 10:41 pm

Barchan wrote:
I notice you put the word "allyship" in quotation marks, do you have any specific issues with the concept of allyship you can clarify?


The whole segregating people by race, gender, sexual identity, etc thing? This is another big issue I have with social justice, there's a whole plethora of 'it's different when we do it' rationalizations for behaviors generally condemned in other contexts. 'Only white people can be racist' type arguments are one of the better examples of this.


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16 Jun 2016, 8:23 am

As a hardcore lefty on the political spectrum, i say f**k political correctness and SJW's.


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16 Jun 2016, 10:51 am

einsteinmyhero wrote:
As a hardcore lefty on the political spectrum, i say f**k political correctness and SJW's.


Careful, if you try to sound any more edgy you might cut yourself. :lol:

(And I say that as someone who would typically be placed on the far-left and who's critical of excessive political correctness/the euphemism treadmill and occasionally critical of the SJW mindset, especially when it appears to be denying or doubting others agency in the guise of defending them.)


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16 Jun 2016, 11:41 am

I didn't know sjws were getting involved in the autism rights movement.

evilreligion wrote:
The difference being that feminism has already won most of its major battles where as the autism rights movement has barely started.


Whew! It's good to know I can stop worrying about getting raped and sexually harassed! All those little girls who were being married off to men 3 times their age and getting their vulva sliced off and their vaginas sewn shut must be relieved as well.



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16 Jun 2016, 11:50 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Of course people are going to take it personally if you call them names. While there is institutional privilige and ism's there is individual versions of these things also. And these insititutions are made up of individuals. If you are not part of the problem you should not be guilt tripped for it.


But if one is and merely refuses to recognize it they deserve to be identified as such, even if it hurts their tender feels. One who doesn't wish to be labelled in a certain way shouldn't behave in a way consistent with that label otherwise the label is applicable.


That might mean said individual is uninformed, it might mean said individiual is racist or actually privilaged, it might mean the individual just does not agree with whatever agenda the Social Justice Warrior is pushing or maybe the individual Social Justice Warrior ought to check thier arrogance. Some SJW's mocking others feelings, really?


No doubt, everyone has blind spots and one shouldn't start from the assumption that malice is the motive behind someone's actions. That said, if an attempt to correct the behaviour was made and no change in behaviour resulted the next time around it's much more reasonable to assume the behaviour is intentional and that it should be confronted as such.

If the agenda one disagrees with is treating people with dignity, that's not a fault with said agenda, that's a fault within the person denying others basic dignity. And yes, bullies who intentionally offend others but get butthurt when they're called out for it are fair game for being mocked. If one can't 'take it' they shouldn't insist on 'giving it'.


Attempting to persuade is life, the problem comes with tactics. While the agenda is radically different the bullying then mocking the people they bullied for hurt feelings is no different from what part of the Trump phenomenon is about, no different at all. And it is completly hypocritical coming from people demanding safe spaces. And as Dox alluded to the last thing minorities should be doing is restricting free speech.

This is about more then hurt feelings, this stuff is having real world consequences. Some things are actually offensive and these things need to be minimized, safe spaces and trigger warnings are legitimate concepts in relation to trauma/PTSD. But the Boy Who Cried Wolf effect is happening. If legitimate helpful terms are used too often they become meaningless and objects of scorn. America is all but paralyzed politically. There are a lot reasons for this, people bieng guilt tripped for the group they are born into and publicy shamed into conformity instead of reasonably persuaded is part of the explination.


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16 Jun 2016, 12:01 pm

starkid wrote:
I didn't know sjws were getting involved in the autism rights movement.


Yep we have derailed another thread, quilty as as charged

Here is the blog written by the OP describing what he believes are autistic SJW's
The cruelty of strangers


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funeralxempire
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16 Jun 2016, 12:57 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Attempting to persuade is life, the problem comes with tactics. While the agenda is radically different the bullying then mocking the people they bullied for hurt feelings is no different from what part of the Trump phenomenon is about, no different at all. And it is completly hypocritical coming from people demanding safe spaces. And as Dox alluded to the last thing minorities should be doing is restricting free speech.


I'm not sure the phenomenon are exactly identical, typically you don't see the pile-on response unless someone has been acting antagonistically and provoked it. Quite often those who complain about receiving that response have no problem with initiating hostility and insisting 'everyone agrees' with their stance, but then complain when many people aggressively condemn their position.

Condemning intolerance isn't the same as restricting expression of intolerance. One is free to say whatever they'd like, and others are free to agree, disagree or express condemnation of those ideas. Unless someone is violently interfering with another's expression it's unreasonable to insist they're actually restricting others free speech.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
This is about more then hurt feelings, this stuff is having real world consequences. Some things are actually offensive and these things need to be minimized, safe spaces and trigger warnings are legitimate concepts in relation to trauma/PTSD. But the Boy Who Cried Wolf effect is happening. If legitimate helpful terms are used too often they become meaningless and objects of scorn. America is all but paralyzed politically. There are a lot reasons for this, people bieng guilt tripped for the group they are born into and publicy shamed into conformity instead of reasonably persuaded is part of the explination.


I don't disagree that the notion of 'trigger warnings' and 'safe spaces' may be taken too far; there's a reason I don't post in The Haven. That said, someone who goes around jamming their metaphorical finger in everyone's eye doesn't get to insist that the people who are pissed about getting poked in the eye are overly sensitive. If one wishes to insist that all people in x demographic group are savages they're in no position to complain when the savagery of their own rhetoric is pointed out, or when the savagery committed by demographic groups they identify with is pointed out. Ultimately the goal should always be to persuade and not to bludgeon into conformity - but sometimes the only way to persuade someone to stop swinging their stick and to drop it is to give them a few whacks with your own stick to convince them that swinging their stick more will only prove to be a losing strategy. If publicly shaming people who insist on trying to publicly shame causes that behaviour to be modified, that's good enough. Simply demonstrating that a demeaning ideological position that formerly controlled the dialogue no longer does is worthwhile - even if it leaves supporters of that position feeling scorned/rejected/shamed. Treating white supremacists or homophobes as pariahs doesn't make them go away, but it does force the framing of arguments with them to be different going forward - it puts them on the defensive and forces them to be in the position of trying to persuade people to agree, instead of being able to treat apathetic people who haven't considered the argument thoroughly as 'silent allies'.


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16 Jun 2016, 6:07 pm

Not a reply here, but found some very good stuff on links in stuff linked:

"Social Justice And Words, Words, Words"
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/so ... rds-words/

"The Vacuity of Postmodernist
Methodology." - this paper is academic and I struggled with it, not really up my thinking style street, but anyone into philosophy reading should groove on it. The paper takes a pop at Foucault amongst others:

http://philpapers.org/archive/SHATVO-2.pdf



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17 Jun 2016, 1:23 am

^

Scott Alexander is amazing, I can't recommend SlateStarCodex enough, especially for aspies.


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17 Jun 2016, 2:04 am

andrethemoogle wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I agree a lot with you and the linked post.
My interactions with SJWs have been horrible.
I think they do harm, not good, for autism advocacy and autistic people.
They don't speak for me, I want nothing to do with them.


I've come to this conclusion too after thinking about it for a good couple months. They are all equal rights (which is good, because I am too, we're all human) until you have a disability or a personality disorder, then they'll pick you apart for it like vultures. Radicals always ruin things, always.

Also, if you don't agree with their philosophy 100% they will turn on you as well. I've learned this from experience with the whole gamer movement thingy (I don't care about it anymore, I'm neutral on it now, both sides have bad eggs)


Equal rights also unless you're white, male, conservative, Christian, or Herero.



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17 Jun 2016, 11:58 am

Galymcd wrote:
Equal rights also unless you're white, male, conservative, Christian, or Herero.


Go on, please educate us on how oppressed the straight white Christian man is...


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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う