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XenoMind
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19 Nov 2017, 11:28 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Google core value is not diversity of opinion. He went against it.

He didn't. The memo was supposed to find the ways to increase the number of women working in Google, and that's perfectly in line with the Google's narrative.
You'd better read the memo before coming up with your conclusions about it, really.



ASPartOfMe
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19 Nov 2017, 1:24 pm

XenoMind wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Google core value is not diversity of opinion. He went against it.

He didn't. The memo was supposed to find the ways to increase the number of women working in Google, and that's perfectly in line with the Google's narrative.
You'd better read the memo before coming up with your conclusions about it, really.


He made the same mistake you are making and a lot of us autistics make, taking things literally and not understanding the "hidden agenda". I try and look at actions, not words, he was fired for his opinion. Google's actions demonstrate they clearly do not want diversity of opinion no matter what they say.


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XenoMind
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19 Nov 2017, 3:04 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
He made the same mistake you are making and a lot of us autistics make, taking things literally and not understanding the "hidden agenda".

Physician, heal thyself. :D

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Google's actions demonstrate they clearly do not want diversity of opinion no matter what they say.

It's not about diversity of opinions at all. You'd better read more carefully and write less.



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19 Nov 2017, 8:12 pm

XenoMind wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
He made the same mistake you are making and a lot of us autistics make, taking things literally and not understanding the "hidden agenda".

Physician, heal thyself. :D

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Google's actions demonstrate they clearly do not want diversity of opinion no matter what they say.

It's not about diversity of opinions at all. You'd better read more carefully and write less.


Diversity of opinion or more accurately the shrinking diversity opinion is completely what this is about. The shrinking diversity of opinion being allowed and expressed is a potential existential threat to America as we know it or knew it. Damore wanted the opposite, to increase the diversity of opinion. I have seen no evidence that he was fired for subpar work, there is really only one credible explanation for his firing, he said things that they personally found offensive or enough employees found offensive to be a morale problem or both. He did what they literally asked him to and was fired because that is was not what they wanted.

There is no healing myself, I was born autistic and will die that way.


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XenoMind
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20 Nov 2017, 12:46 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Diversity of opinion or more accurately the shrinking diversity opinion is completely what this is about. The shrinking diversity of opinion being allowed and expressed is a potential existential threat to America as we know it or knew it.

That's true.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Damore wanted the opposite, to increase the diversity of opinion.

Not really. His memo is not against affirmative action or something like that. This memo is, in fact, very feminist in its narrative. Believe it or not.



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09 Jan 2018, 6:15 pm

James Damore Sues Google, Alleging Discrimination Against Conservative White Men

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James Damore, the former Google engineer who was fired after he wrote a memo sharply criticizing diversity efforts at the company, has filed a class-action lawsuit against his former employer alleging that the tech giant discriminates against conservative white men.

Damore is joined in his suit by David Gudeman, a former Google employee who was fired in December 2016. Gudeman used an internal forum to question a Muslim co-worker's account of being targeted by the FBI on the basis of his religion and suggested that the FBI had legitimate reasons to investigate the co-worker. Google human resources fired him, saying it was unacceptable to accuse a colleague of terrorism based on their religion.

Gudeman had previously been cited by HR, according to the suit, after he saw a female Google manager's advice on how white men should respond to statements about bias and compared it to something "slave owners would have written for their slaves to help them understand how to interact with their masters."

The suit also says there are other potential class members and includes more than 80 pages of allegedly offensive or discriminatory posts made on a variety of platforms. The first item under "Anti-conservative postings" was an anonymous Kermit tea meme reading, "I think all of Trump's supporters are deplorable for backing an openly racist candidate, but that's none of my business." Under "Anti-Caucasian" postings was an anonymous comment telling white, male and/or straight people that "there are times to just shut up and listen. Try for some empathy. You'll learn


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XenoMind
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09 Jan 2018, 8:44 pm

Chronos
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09 Jan 2018, 9:11 pm

More than half of Google's workforce is made up of white males. I don't know what their political affiliation is. Google likes to position itself as progressive but progressive doesn't always mean liberal and a lot of people in STEM are actually conservative. If Damore's lawyer can win this case in court, legally, that would be very impressive. What may actually happen though is, Google may settle just to make Damore and others go away.

If Google did anything wrong here, it was giving Damore the impression that he could speak freely on any topic he wished without fear of punishment or losing his job.

I do agree, however, that it was appropriate for Google to fire him. Damore made a claim that women suffer higher levels of neuroticism and depression as an innate part of our biology. While this claim was based on studied in which women were surveyed and requested to self assess, and Damore was echoing the conclusions of the researchers, the researchers themselves came to a faulty conclusion and the study should have been rejected by the peer review process. I will bet money though that those doing the peer review were predominantly male.

Damore is not as innocent as some here might hope. He made pre-emptive attempts to quell any anger at what he was about to say by stressing that he was speaking in general terms and these things would not be applicable to all women, so he should have reasonably know that his memo might upset people, women in particular, and to that end, one must ask, how does one reason that upsetting women will make an environment more welcoming to them?

Damore was not fired for being white, or male, or conservative or a conservative white male. He was fired for making comments that, if permitted at Google, would have served to make the company more hostile towards women.



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09 Jan 2018, 9:38 pm

Chronos wrote:
Google likes to position itself as progressive but progressive doesn't always mean liberal and a lot of people in STEM are actually conservative.

Only if you understand the word "progressive" in a very strange way, because science and engineering are all about the progress.

Chronos wrote:
He was fired for making comments that, if permitted at Google, would have served to make the company more hostile towards women.

You didn't read the memo, did you?



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10 Jan 2018, 1:51 am

Concerning the flaws in the studies Damore cited, the studies merely asked men and women around the world about their levels of depression and anxiety and women reported higher levels than men. Because women reported higher levels across age groups and societies, the study authors concluded that these things must be innate to female biology. There are two problems here. The first is, women in the west tend to be more open with their feelings than men, and this might apply elsewhere as the concept that a man is supposed to be brave and strong mentally and/or physically, seems to be fairly universal. Second, the study failed to investigate what their depression and anxiety stemmed from. Rather than attempting to determine the actual cause of these emotions, the researchers hastily and rather sloppily chalked it up to biology. They failed to take into account burdens that females face across cultures, such as the significant restriction on freedom of movement and vulnerability due to physical and sexual abuse that arises from being the physically weaker sex. Cultural norms that further hinder a girl and woman's freedom to have control over her own life....for example, unwanted betrothals, diminished legal status as a person, fewer job opportunities. The burden of being the sex that has to gestate, birth, and care for children. It's not uncommon in the world for a man to run off, leaving his wife with the burden of raising, sometimes a significant number of children on her own. Napoleon Chagnon, in studying the Yanomami, noted that the older Yanomami women became, the more often they seemed to be in bad moods. Well why wouldn't they be? They don't get to choose their husband, live under constant fear of rape, must kill their babies if their husband's demand it, and are often beaten by their husbands for no reason other than the fact that he has decided to remind her of "her place". Why would anyone be happy under those conditions? Women in many parts of the world face similar plights.

Women in the west do not escape the burden of being female and are often subjected to many of the same things mentioned above. We get a lot of harassment and sexism that a lot of men fail to see because they aren't being subjected to it. Women face a lot of subconscious sexism and microaggressions in the workplace that their male counterparts don't, and are more often critiqued for our personalities rather than just our performance, and face harsher punishments in the workplace for transgressions or failure than their male counterparts. I'm not trying to imply by any means that men are not without their problems in life, I'm just illustrating problems women face that can lead to depression and anxiety. To top it off, women who both work and have children typically do double duty, often taking on 90% of the domestic and child care responsibilities when they work outside of the home the same number of hours as their partner. I'll admit this one thing women have some responsibility in because no one is really forcing them to do the dishes after a long work day except for their own standards. Never the less, some women see such things as things that must be done.

Damore spoke on an issue he was not qualified to speak on. Living life as a woman.



Last edited by Chronos on 10 Jan 2018, 5:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

Chronos
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10 Jan 2018, 5:00 am

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Google likes to position itself as progressive but progressive doesn't always mean liberal and a lot of people in STEM are actually conservative.

Only if you understand the word "progressive" in a very strange way, because science and engineering are all about the progress.

Chronos wrote:
He was fired for making comments that, if permitted at Google, would have served to make the company more hostile towards women.

You didn't read the memo, did you?


I read all 10 pages of the memo and wrote a piece by piece commentary of it at the time. Why do you ask?



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10 Jan 2018, 9:36 pm

Actual females share their actual experiences as business executives

Life is not a meritocracy where everyone is rewarded for being "good" or "skilled" some way.

Being skilled, high performing, or good at what she does is not enough to get a woman as high on the success ladder as it would get a man anymore than being nice is enough to get a man as many sex partners as it would a woman. Women don't have to be nice for a man to want to have sex with her and a man does not need to be competent at work to be approved of by others.



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League_Girl
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11 Jan 2018, 11:23 am

Okay, it seems like he was fired because too many Google employees got upset and it doesn't matter what he was trying to say. That is the way work places work.


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XenoMind
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11 Jan 2018, 4:45 pm

Chronos wrote:
I read all 10 pages of the memo and wrote a piece by piece commentary of it at the time. Why do you ask?

I doubt that. Could you point me to the source for this conclusion? "He was fired for making comments that, if permitted at Google, would have served to make the company more hostile towards women."