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XenoMind
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11 Jan 2018, 4:47 pm

Piobaire wrote:

Translating to the normal human language from "SJW speak":
"It's fine to discriminate against people that SJWs don't like"



demeus
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11 Jan 2018, 5:03 pm

All Google employees are what is called "At Will" employees. That means that as long as there is not a law against the reason why they are firing you, they can fire you for any reason at all (or are not even required to give a reason). I doubt Damore can win against Google but my bet is that Google will pay him to just walk away and he probably moves on to doing consulting work where his customers do not have to acknowledge that he is doing work for them.

Many people find themselves in situations vs their employer. I remember a parent who was on this board years ago who was a CPA and her firm made her do some accounting tricks where were not considered legal under the threat to being fired. She did them in such a way to cover her own rear end and then found another job (with an organization who works with persons with developmental disabilities). Her boss was actually shocked that she would quit her job over something like that.

The problem can come in though in that even those on the high end of the spectrum can misinterpret workplace demands on what to say and not say and the consequences have be devastating. That is why I think many of those on the high end of the spectrum end up being independent contractors and/or consultants. It has its down sides but you do not have to worry about company politics as much.



Chronos
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11 Jan 2018, 8:25 pm

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I read all 10 pages of the memo and wrote a piece by piece commentary of it at the time. Why do you ask?

I doubt that. Could you point me to the source for this conclusion? "He was fired for making comments that, if permitted at Google, would have served to make the company more hostile towards women."


No. Do you know why? Because men doubt women all the time. It doesn't matter what it's on or how valid her authority on the matter or invalid his. He will doubt her experiences because he didn't experience them. He will doubt studies he himself demanded to see because they do not jive with his ideas, and the more evidence that is mounted against them, the more he will double down on his doubt of her.

You doubt me because you and I have come to different conclusion on the matter. You think that if someone read what you read and has reasonable reading comprehension skills, they will come to the same conclusions as you, but you interpret Damore's words from of someone who has lived life as a male....if we are to believe your profile claim and I interpret it as someone who has lived life as a woman. I know first hand how the general congregation of women view Damore's comments. They view them as a negative misrepresentation of them. If you want the evidence to that, consider the outcry from women that his comments have garnered.

But I am not going to play the "Prove a woman's reality to a man" game.



Aristophanes
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11 Jan 2018, 9:35 pm

Damore didn't fit their 'company culture' which if you've had to get a job in the last decade you'd know is your #1 most important trait to the company, not what you can do. As for Google this should be no shocker whatsoever, if you're outraged it's manufactured or you weren't paying attention: Google has a slightly liberal company culture they tuck under the phrase 'Do no harm'. They're constantly promoting the 'good' work they do ('good' in quotations because it's debatable), and if Damore didn't get the gist that's his own stupidity at play to how company culture and corporate politics work. Also, if you think that's unfair ask yourself this: how long would a tree-hugging liberal last at a gun manufacturer while trying to push his gun-control agenda on his bosses? Answer: not long at all. If you think your politics don't have an effect in your workplace you're just kidding yourself: if you value your job keep your politics to yourself during work hours and don't discuss them with your work colleagues after hours. Also of note the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits workplace discrimination based on religion, national origin, race, color, and sex-- politics is NOT covered.

Edit: Oh yeah, Google's also getting sued on the opposite end for pay based gender discrimination against women. So they're getting it from both ends here, and all Damore and the gender discrimination suit tells me is that Google is now big enough to be a payout target.



Last edited by Aristophanes on 11 Jan 2018, 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

XenoMind
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11 Jan 2018, 9:40 pm

Chronos wrote:
You doubt me because you and I have come to different conclusion on the matter.

I doubt you because you can't give a good answer to a very simple question. That's how it works among engineers. If somebody can't give a reasonable answer, then nobody is going to take her or him seriously, regardless the gender.



XenoMind
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11 Jan 2018, 9:46 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Also, if you think that's unfair ask yourself this: how long would a tree-hugging liberal last at a gun manufacturer while trying to push his gun-control agenda on his bosses? Answer: not long at all.

So you didn't read the Damore's memo, too.



Aristophanes
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11 Jan 2018, 9:53 pm

XenoMind wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Also, if you think that's unfair ask yourself this: how long would a tree-hugging liberal last at a gun manufacturer while trying to push his gun-control agenda on his bosses? Answer: not long at all.

So you didn't read the Damore's memo, too.

Actually I did, and this one phrase is what got him fired more than anything to do with his facetious gender argument (oh pay disparity isn't gender bias, it's a whole list of other things I invented last night):
Quote:
Confront Google’s biases.
I’ve mostly concentrated on how our biases cloud our thinking about diversity and inclusion, but our moral biases are farther reaching than that.
I would start by breaking down Googlegeist scores by political orientation and personality to give a fuller picture into how our biases are affecting our culture.


He's attempting to change corporate culture, which is an affront to the power structure itself. When your employer asks you for suggestions they want you to mimic what they've already outlined as the appropriate answers, not go coloring outside the lines on your own. Again corporate politics 101, and 'company culture'.



XenoMind
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11 Jan 2018, 11:48 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Actually I did

Probably skimmed it a minute ago?

Aristophanes wrote:
He's attempting to change corporate culture

No he isn't. What he's doing is trying to help his bosses achieve their public goals by correcting some mistakes in the corporate policy (what can be a risky endeavor, but even in an ultra-right-wing gun manufacturing company you wouldn't get fired for trying to do that once). What is quite different from the word "pushing" as it implies that you're doing it systematically.

"Below I'll go over some of the differences in distribution of traits between men and women that I
outlined in the previous section and suggest ways to address them to increase women's
representation in tech
without resorting to discrimination."



Chronos
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11 Jan 2018, 11:55 pm

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
You doubt me because you and I have come to different conclusion on the matter.

I doubt you because you can't give a good answer to a very simple question. That's how it works among engineers. If somebody can't give a reasonable answer, then nobody is going to take her or him seriously, regardless the gender.


You would think that if you have only ever been a male in tech but if you have been a female in tech you would know that sometimes no amount of logic or reason will be taken seriously or heeded if it comes from you.

About four years ago, I was on a project that was a phenomenal failure because two male "engineers" would not heed the laws of physics as told them by a female with significantly more experience and knowledge than themselves, not that it mattered because any person who just finished their lower division physic series should have known them.

Like I said though, I don't expect a man to understand the female experience. I'm not going to waste my time trying to show you something that is right in front of your face and that you can't see. I can see it and that's good enough for me, as it is for all the other women who can see it. We don't need men to validate out experiences. I think you would find it astounding the unbelievable BS that women have to deal with if you were to suddenly wake up as female though.



Last edited by Chronos on 12 Jan 2018, 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

XenoMind
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12 Jan 2018, 12:02 am

Chronos wrote:
sometimes no amount of logic or reason will be taken seriously or heeded if it comes from you.

Well, I have this feeling rather often. The problem: I'm not a female.

Chronos wrote:
Like I said though, I don't expect a man to understand the female experience.

Now that was very chauvinist and female-centric. If you said something like that about women (being a man), the feminists of the world would have smashed you like an egg.



Last edited by XenoMind on 12 Jan 2018, 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chronos
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12 Jan 2018, 12:05 am

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
sometimes no amount of logic or reason will be taken seriously or heeded if it comes from you.

Well, I have this feeling rather often. The problem: I'm not a female.

Chronos wrote:
Like I said though, I don't expect a man to understand the female experience.

Now that was very chauvinist and female-centric.


If you wish to think that but why should I expect him to unless perhaps he is transexual and has been living as a male for quite some time?

Yes, female experiences are female centric. That is the entire point. Likewise, male experiences are male centric.

While we are on the topic, there isn't a single cis male gynecologist who knows what menstrual cramps or child birth feels like no matter how many decades they have been in practice. In fact the predominantly male medical community used to think that menstrual cramps were psychological because they couldn't find a cause for them. That is an absolutely ridiculous conclusion to women who have experienced them though.

The men doubted because they didn't have the benefit of experience. Having the benefit of experience, it would be a ridiculous thing to doubt.



XenoMind
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12 Jan 2018, 12:51 am

Chronos wrote:
Yes, female experiences are female centric. That is the entire point. Likewise, male experiences are male centric.

Not necessarily. As I pointed out, your statement that "no amount of logic or reason will be taken seriously or heeded if it comes from you" solely due to you being a female is just wrong. Men do the same to other men, and rather often.



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12 Jan 2018, 2:01 am

Aristophanes wrote:
When your employer asks you for suggestions they want you to mimic what they've already outlined as the appropriate answers, not go coloring outside the lines on your own. Again corporate politics 101, and 'company culture'.

^^^^
This


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Chronos
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12 Jan 2018, 4:17 am

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Yes, female experiences are female centric. That is the entire point. Likewise, male experiences are male centric.

Not necessarily. As I pointed out, your statement that "no amount of logic or reason will be taken seriously or heeded if it comes from you" solely due to you being a female is just wrong
.

No it isn't wrong. It is something that myself and other women have experienced first hand. This brings us back to my initial point. What makes you think you that you, as a male, are qualified to speak to a female's experience? You are not. By what logic do you think you can determine what I or another woman has been subjected to or experienced? Or even another person's experience if you are not that person or were not present or were not attentive to it if you were? You have not lived a day as female but you know what it's like to live as female and be related to as female and be treated as female? How does that work?

XenoMind wrote:
Men do the same to other men, and rather often.


Men may occasionally wrongfully disregard other men, but no it's not the same thing because the thing we were talking about is men disregarding women for the fact that they are female.



XenoMind
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12 Jan 2018, 11:11 am

Chronos wrote:
What makes you think you that you, as a male, are qualified to speak to a female's experience?

What makes you think that you, as a female, are qualified to speak about a male's experience?

Chronos wrote:
Men may occasionally wrongfully disregard other men, but no it's not the same thing

Goodbye logic.