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Chronos
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12 Jan 2018, 3:26 pm

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
What makes you think you that you, as a male, are qualified to speak to a female's experience?

What makes you think that you, as a female, are qualified to speak about a male's experience?

Chronos wrote:
Men may occasionally wrongfully disregard other men, but no it's not the same thing

Goodbye logic.


I would like to point out that you are editing my comments in a way that misrepresents them. In the futue, please qoute the entire comment. I have posted below my entire comment with the part you omitted in bold. What had actually been said was...

Chronos wrote:
XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Yes, female experiences are female centric. That is the entire point. Likewise, male experiences are male centric.

Not necessarily. As I pointed out, your statement that "no amount of logic or reason will be taken seriously or heeded if it comes from you" solely due to you being a female is just wrong
.

No it isn't wrong. It is something that myself and other women have experienced first hand. This brings us back to my initial point. What makes you think you that you, as a male, are qualified to speak to a female's experience? You are not. By what logic do you think you can determine what I or another woman has been subjected to or experienced? Or even another person's experience if you are not that person or were not present or were not attentive to it if you were? You have not lived a day as female but you know what it's like to live as female and be related to as female and be treated as female? How does that work?

XenoMind wrote:
Men do the same to other men, and rather often.


Men may occasionally wrongfully disregard other men, but no it's not the same thing because the thing we were talking about is men disregarding women for the fact that they are female.


So no, I did not speak to a man's experiences. I acknowledged experiences men claim to have that they are sometimes wrongfully disregarded by other men, and this is not the same thing as women being disregarded for the fact that they are women, nor does stating so speak to a man's experience, because men are not women and thus men can not be disregarded by for being women, with the exception of when another person thinks that man is a woman but the context here is a work place where that is unlikely to happen.



XenoMind
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12 Jan 2018, 6:18 pm

Chronos wrote:
So no, I did not speak to a man's experiences. I acknowledged experiences men claim to have that they are sometimes wrongfully disregarded by other men, and this is not the same thing as women being disregarded for the fact that they are women, nor does stating so speak to a man's experience, because men are not women and thus men can not be disregarded by for being women, with the exception of when another person thinks that man is a woman but the context here is a work place where that is unlikely to happen.

According to your own logic, you don't know if it's the same thing or not the same - because you can't experience both and compare.
And by they way, it seems that you don't know what is circular reasoning?



Chronos
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12 Jan 2018, 11:27 pm

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
So no, I did not speak to a man's experiences. I acknowledged experiences men claim to have that they are sometimes wrongfully disregarded by other men, and this is not the same thing as women being disregarded for the fact that they are women, nor does stating so speak to a man's experience, because men are not women and thus men can not be disregarded by for being women, with the exception of when another person thinks that man is a woman but the context here is a work place where that is unlikely to happen.

According to your own logic, you don't know if it's the same thing or not the same - because you can't experience both and compare.
And by they way, it seems that you don't know what is circular reasoning?


If you keep taking my words out of context, yes, it may seem like circular reason to yourself.

Perhaps you had best run this by a logistician or philosophy professor and they can explain to you why it's not circular reasoning, as I have no reason to believe anything I say here can appease you regardless of it's integrity, and to be honest, I have no desire or need to appease. You may continue to be of the opinions that you are of but it does not change the reality of what women have to contend with in the world nor does it negate my experiences or the experiences of other women (though it would be quite nice if it did). Additionally, it does not serve you well to continue to harbor such perspectives but for reasons I've not yet fully understood, evolution continues to make men such as yourself who fail to heed words from the source. It's not really any of my concern to be honest with respect to Damore and the Google issue. Google made the right decision.



XenoMind
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15 Jan 2018, 6:33 pm

Chronos wrote:
If you keep taking my words out of context, yes, it may seem like circular reason to yourself.

And once again, you're using emotional "arguments" instead of facts and logic.



Chronos
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15 Jan 2018, 8:50 pm

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
If you keep taking my words out of context, yes, it may seem like circular reason to yourself.

And once again, you're using emotional "arguments" instead of facts and logic.


If that is what you see in it then that is what you see in it. Perhaps I see your arguments in the same light.



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15 Jan 2018, 9:16 pm

Amaltheia wrote:
Interesting to note that the people who responded to Damore with (from the linked Guardian article) “You’re a misogynist and a terrible human. I will keep hounding you until one of us is fired. f**k you.” and “I intend to silence these views. They are violently offensive.” weren't fired. Apparently publicly expressing such sentiments and making threats is considered completely consistent with Google's core values.

My favorite, though, is “It has cost me at least two days of productivity and anger, and I am not even the target of its bigoted attacks”. Someone just admits that they hadn't done a lick of work for two days and that seems fine with their employer.


What?!?! 8O :evil:

How on Earth can a view be violently offensive? Beliefs and states of mind are, by definition, non-physical, and therefore cannot in any way, shape or form be "violent".

I know, I'm thinking too much like an "Aspie", but this whole business is just sickening. No one - EVER - should lose their job simply because they do not accept certain beliefs about the nature of reality that those who employed him hold as true. There ARE fundamental differences between males and females! Who in their right mind can deny this obvious FACT?!

He should sue the rotten, politically-correct, SJW, special-snowflake, easily triggered, utterly retarded bastards!



Chronos
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15 Jan 2018, 9:32 pm

Lintar wrote:
Amaltheia wrote:
Interesting to note that the people who responded to Damore with (from the linked Guardian article) “You’re a misogynist and a terrible human. I will keep hounding you until one of us is fired. f**k you.” and “I intend to silence these views. They are violently offensive.” weren't fired. Apparently publicly expressing such sentiments and making threats is considered completely consistent with Google's core values.

My favorite, though, is “It has cost me at least two days of productivity and anger, and I am not even the target of its bigoted attacks”. Someone just admits that they hadn't done a lick of work for two days and that seems fine with their employer.


What?!?! 8O :evil:

How on Earth can a view be violently offensive? Beliefs and states of mind are, by definition, non-physical, and therefore cannot in any way, shape or form be "violent".

I know, I'm thinking too much like an "Aspie", but this whole business is just sickening. No one - EVER - should lose their job simply because they do not accept certain beliefs about the nature of reality that those who employed him hold as true. There ARE fundamental differences between males and females! Who in their right mind can deny this obvious FACT?!

He should sue the rotten, politically-correct, SJW, special-snowflake, easily triggered, utterly retarded bastards!


Isn't there some aspect of social justice and political correctness in your own ideologies though in the belief that an employer should be tolerant of the the expression of thought of their employees regardless of any potential negative impact to the company and investors? And don't you think you yourself might come across as a triggered snowflake in your expression of anger that employees are not entitled to freely express themselves without being fired?



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16 Jan 2018, 11:35 am

Chronos wrote:
If that is what you see in it then that is what you see in it. Perhaps I see your arguments in the same light.

It's not "what I see". It's what is. The truth is not relative.



Last edited by XenoMind on 16 Jan 2018, 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Xaira
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16 Jan 2018, 2:54 pm

Gosh. I'm new to this forum and this debate was quite a fun read. So much tension and many opposing stances yet everyone remains civil (no emotional explosions or name-calling).

I was trying to find a safe place to voice my own opinions on this topic. I tried to on reddit and I was called sexist and misogynist (oops). I do admit my language can be a bit coarse at times. If so, I don't mind being called out on it, I just don't feel it's right to bully others just because they disagree.

Anyway, this community looks great! 8O



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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16 Jan 2018, 3:06 pm

Xaira wrote:
So much tension and many opposing stances yet everyone remains civil (no emotional explosions or name-calling).


Lintar wrote:
He should sue the rotten, politically-correct, SJW, special-snowflake, easily triggered, utterly retarded bastards!


No emotional explosions. :lol:



Amaltheia
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16 Jan 2018, 3:48 pm

Chronos wrote:
Isn't there some aspect of social justice and political correctness in your own ideologies though in the belief that an employer should be tolerant of the the expression of thought of their employees regardless of any potential negative impact to the company and investors? And don't you think you yourself might come across as a triggered snowflake in your expression of anger that employees are not entitled to freely express themselves without being fired?

So you're saying that comments such as “You’re a misogynist and a terrible human. I will keep hounding you until one of us is fired. f**k you.” and “I intend to silence these views. They are violently offensive.” are perfectly acceptable to Google and its investors?

Is that in general? Or only when directed against people you personally don't like?



Xaira
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16 Jan 2018, 5:44 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Xaira wrote:
So much tension and many opposing stances yet everyone remains civil (no emotional explosions or name-calling).


Lintar wrote:
He should sue the rotten, politically-correct, SJW, special-snowflake, easily triggered, utterly retarded bastards!


No emotional explosions. :lol:



Oops. I meant calling other forum-users names. XD



Chronos
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16 Jan 2018, 7:53 pm

Amaltheia wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Isn't there some aspect of social justice and political correctness in your own ideologies though in the belief that an employer should be tolerant of the the expression of thought of their employees regardless of any potential negative impact to the company and investors? And don't you think you yourself might come across as a triggered snowflake in your expression of anger that employees are not entitled to freely express themselves without being fired?

So you're saying that comments such as “You’re a misogynist and a terrible human. I will keep hounding you until one of us is fired. f**k you.” and “I intend to silence these views. They are violently offensive.” are perfectly acceptable to Google and its investors?

Is that in general? Or only when directed against people you personally don't like?


If I were saying that, I would have said that. Please do not imply I have said things that I didn't say. I recommend including the entire conversation chain when easily feasible so as to avoid taking someone's words out of context rather than going out of your way to edit the context out.

As for the above comment that you seem to have attributed to me, that was not my comment and I have made no comment on it other than this very comment I am making now.



Chronos
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16 Jan 2018, 8:00 pm

XenoMind wrote:
Chronos wrote:
If that is what you see in it then that is what you see in it. Perhaps I see your arguments in the same light.

It's not "what I see". It's what is. The truth is not relative.


It may or may not be depending on the "truth" one is speaking of but if it were not, what cedes you the authority to determine what is truth, over someone else, and by what means does a man who has been a man all of his life determine that he has more authority on the female experience and female perspectives than an actual female?



Amaltheia
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17 Jan 2018, 1:07 am

Chronos wrote:
As for the above comment that you seem to have attributed to me, that was not my comment and I have made no comment on it other than this very comment I am making now.

Seriously? You're just going to flat out lie?
You do realise that people can just scroll up and see the quoted comment with you as the poster.

Chronos wrote:
If I were saying that, I would have said that. Please do not imply I have said things that I didn't say. I recommend including the entire conversation chain when easily feasible so as to avoid taking someone's words out of context rather than going out of your way to edit the context out.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.
Lots of people — you among them — defend Google's decision to fire Damore because he said something "offensive", but pass over these other comments in complete silence. There are no reports that the people who made them have been fired. But none of these people are calling for them to be fired or even disciplined for much more blatantly violating Google's stated policy of promoting "a culture of 'psychological safety' among its staff, believing it imperative that employees feel empowered to voice ideas without feeling embarrassed or judged."

It's a rather blatant double standard.

I'm sure there's a word to describe such an immunity or advantage that sets a few above the rules applied to everyone else.