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pawelk1986
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02 Jul 2019, 5:07 am

I wonder why people with Asperger Syndrome are often presented as such to honest, almost saints. For example, I have an Asperger Syndrome, but I'm lying pretty well when I know that I will be better off the lie.

Sometimes it's better to lie to avoid punishment, or when the truth can hurt a lot other people.

Besides, you do not even have to lie, sometimes you can omit some things :mrgreen:



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02 Jul 2019, 5:09 am

I think biult-in honesty is an independent trait that makes Asperger's Syndrome more obvious, thus, more often diagnosed.

As I know some people with this trait very closely, I wouldn't equate built-in honesty to any kind of saintity. It's rather a form of impulsivity - one says things before thinking if they would maybe be better not said.


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Banjo54
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02 Jul 2019, 9:29 pm

For the longest time, I thought that people are typically honest. Now I know that's not the case. I honestly don't understand how or why NTs are so innately dishonest.
I rarely lie, because I rarely feel a reason to. When I do lie, I suck at it and it can be read. Most people with ASD, to my knowledge, are like this- which is definitely one of the positives of ASD.



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03 Jul 2019, 2:50 am

I tell the truth as I see it. So, if I'm saying something I believe it to be the truth. Others may disagree with my take on something, I have no control over that. I have told lies in the past, but I think I just don't care anymore. If someone asks me if they look fat and ugly, I would not say 'yes' and deliberately hurt their feelings though. In that respect, I would lie.


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03 Jul 2019, 3:08 am

I don't think people think we're saints for it. I think they find it annoying and offensive.

I've been thinking I need to tap into mine more. I mix with a lot of aspies and I'm easily offended but I try to 'keep the peace' then people don't know when they said something to offend me. Maybe if I tell them my values to begin with they'll be more careful. My fear is they still might not and then I'll be left really offended.

My mum calls it over and under. I'm oversensitive apparently. My stepdad's undersensitive and offends people a lot.

My lies tend to be weird. I used to answer as if I was part of my fantasy world. Not a lie as such but not the truth. Now my lies are more ways to mask and avoid trouble because of my social anxiety.

Honesty isn't always the best policy if you want to get on in society. But there has to be a balance between that and self preservation.


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pawelk1986
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03 Jul 2019, 4:33 pm

Banjo54 wrote:
For the longest time, I thought that people are typically honest. Now I know that's not the case. I honestly don't understand how or why NTs are so innately dishonest.
I rarely lie, because I rarely feel a reason to. When I do lie, I suck at it and it can be read. Most people with ASD, to my knowledge, are like this- which is definitely one of the positives of ASD.


Being terrible and lying in ASD how it can be good?
Being a good liar is an essential skill in life, not to mention the poker game! :mrgreen:



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04 Jul 2019, 1:32 am

I think because we take things literal. We are told we have to be honest and that lying is bad. Of course aspies can fib and make up stories. Plus we are bad liars but to be fair, many people are bad liars. Another reason is because of lack of social filter and not understanding how it will make another person feel.


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08 Jul 2019, 11:07 am

I've said this only about a billion times, but I just hate to lie and I'm not good at it, anyway. My true feelings tend to leak out of the proverbial cracks.

One exception is the "Tell a Blatant Lie" forum, where I go to make up crazy whoppers just for the fun of it. Naturally, it's easier online when you don't have to worry about eye contact. When NT people in most western culture don't make eye contact (or forcefully make it the whole time they're talking), people, it is usually because they're lying. But many aspies and autistics avoid contact even when being truthful. So of course, NTs think we're horrible. :(

Anyway, why is saying you're dishonest and a good liar seen as something to be "proud" of? What a world we live in when having a disorder that supposedly makes you unable is considered "wrong". :roll:



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08 Jul 2019, 12:12 pm

I am too open and honest. This in itself has led me into trouble.


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Benjamin the Donkey
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08 Jul 2019, 12:31 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
I've said this only about a billion times, but I just hate to lie and I'm not good at it, anyway. My true feelings tend to leak out of the proverbial cracks.

One exception is the "Tell a Blatant Lie" forum, where I go to make up crazy whoppers just for the fun of it. Naturally, it's easier online when you don't have to worry about eye contact. When NT people in most western culture don't make eye contact (or forcefully make it the whole time they're talking), people, it is usually because they're lying. But many aspies and autistics avoid contact even when being truthful. So of course, NTs think we're horrible. :(

Anyway, why is saying you're dishonest and a good liar seen as something to be "proud" of? What a world we live in when having a disorder that supposedly makes you unable is considered "wrong". :roll:


Agreed.


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barf
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09 Jul 2019, 6:48 am

Banjo54 wrote:
For the longest time, I thought that people are typically honest. Now I know that's not the case. I honestly don't understand how or why NTs are so innately dishonest.


I disagree that people (NT/ASD/other) are innately dishonest. Very, very few people are innately dishonest.

In psychology it is taught that our environments have a larger influence over us, than we typically do our environments; lying is typically institutionalised or learned behaviour. The locus of control is a related subject.

Take our economic environment (Capitalism) for example, it rewards dishonesty, amongst other deleterious behaviours, and does little to penalise them. That's my view anyway. I don't think ascribing dishonesty to some innate human condition is going to stand up to much scrutiny. People lie to 'get ahead', and just look at where lying got Trump... with a leader like that you can surely expect to see more dishonesty in society because we often mimic - but that doesn't make people innately dishonest.

I think any perception of honesty with ASD has more to do with simple impulsivity and spontaneity, and maybe also having 'no filter'. Good things if you ask me!



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10 Jul 2019, 2:53 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:

Anyway, why is saying you're dishonest and a good liar seen as something to be "proud" of? What a world we live in when having a disorder that supposedly makes you unable is considered "wrong". :roll:

I agree. "You're very honest!" "You're very rational!" Then I ask: Is being honest wrong? Is being rational wrong? Wrong, for me, is dishonesty and irrationality.


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10 Jul 2019, 3:36 pm

I am a devoutly honest Asperger Syndrome sufferer.
I think that the reason why some of us Aspies are so honest, can be because of a number of factors.

Firstly, I believe the first factor is being born with Asperger Syndrome, which affects
the way us Aspie's think is due to strong cognitive rigidity of thought, which is often present and can affect some of our physical behaviours in the physical world.

I think that literal interpretation and logic are other factors that make us more likely to answer honestly.

I believe that there are other factors that have an impact on why some ASD sufferers grow up to
be very honest.

I believe what values our parents teach us when we are growing up, and how they treat each other and others has an impact on what values that are installed in us that become permanent fixtures of our own values.

Other environments that we frequent can also have an impact on what values we develop.
Sometimes because we like the environment and values, and sometimes because we react against or even rebel against what is taught or forced upon us.

Personally, i had (or have) very kind and moral parents, who have rigidity of thought themselves, who hold very strong honest moral values, who taught them to me from day one, which in turn was likely handed down from their parents. So, i guess it was inevitable that i was going to grow up as a rigidly honest asperger.

To me, honesty, as well as other moral values are just right, fair, just. Values that i understand and put great value on.

Over my life, I have reflected much on this fact and still maintain my respect for honesty, fairness, kindness and I continue to rigidly adherence to these values even if it is to my detriment and to be honest, i do think that it has been to my detriment, at least in terms of material gain.

I believe that if i had not had asperger syndrome but still had the same other attributes (such as IQ etc). I could have chosen to become very dishonest, unfair, criminal, due to my intelligence, martial art training and cunning.

I am sure i could have been a very successful serial killer, bank robber, or perhaps chief of police (is there any difference?...)... I am pleased i am not any of these things. Thanks to honesty and other good moral values.

Now, whether being rigidly honest makes one saintly, i can not say. To be honest, my experiences
in the world of neural typical people. I would say that being honest does help a person to be perceived
as saintly, if anything, it is the opposite.

i would say that the people who are perceived as saintly, would more realistically be highly manipulative, dishonest and devious. Hell, the History of the Church of England is full of such people, who had double lives. To the public, they are one of the leaders of the church or political parties, but behind closed doors, they frequented the hell fire clubs and got up to devious ritual satanic abuse.... and debauchery...

To be honest, a high percentage of neuro typical people do not like people being honest, apart from if you just happen to be telling them something that will make them feel good.

People seldom want to hear objective honest analysis, as most people live in a world of arrogant self indulgent narcissism. They don't want to be told bad things, they want to be worshipped like Gods, Like Simon Cowell and celebrities try and get us to do on a daily basis...

In my experience telling people the truth about part of them seldom makes others happy, unless
they are completely objective ego less Buddhist monks. i.e.
even if they ask you a question about themselves.... if you answer "yes you are fat, ugly, stupid, with a big bum, and an idiot." is seldom objective honest criticism that they welcome.

Also, An honest man who is completely objective is in great danger for bursting such arrogant people's little bubbles and if you do, you are in great danger of them reacting negatively. This i think is part of why we don't get on with people..

honest men, especially those who understand the way the world presently works, and how certain unsavorary
people's minds work, are also in great danger, as they are a threat to the dishonest, criminal manipulators,
as honest wise people who can see what is going on can expose those around us who are ruthlessly exploiting
the people and the world around them. Con men's worst night mare basically.

This is why honest people such as myself get into so much trouble. Not for what i have done, but alas, for what
others are doing to the innocents in this world. it is not because i should be ashamed but because they should be, but they hide there shame by eliminating those who can expose them...

So, what can happen to honest people, is that one or more of the criminal manipulators works out how clever and honest you are, and then they will do all they can to smear your reputation in order to ruin people's respect for you,
so the criminal manipulators can then go back to getting up to their old tricks or extortion, fraud, murder, blackmail, rape etc....

I have lived around various types of people over the years, among honest people, criminal people, religious people, "professional" people, I have also experienced people in the entertainment industry and people in politics.

And have seen how many act, many with out consideration for anyone but themselves and their own profit, and many who have lied on mass in order to exploit their circumstance or what they see is as an opportunity. (often an opportunity that isn't even justly theirs).

I have witnessed to many of them to have been happy to lie, steal, take credit for others work and while they watch innocent people suffer from their criminal exploitation.

I have seen people pick up noble peace prizes for ideas and work that was not theirs, i have seen people make complete careers out of plagiarizing works without the penniless authors permission. I have seen the same people then victimise the people who they have stolen works from, and incite their fans to victimise their victims using slander. to cover up.

I have seen famous politicians incite their buddies in journalism and the entertainment industry victimise people who have saved their career, with the aim of inciting that person to commit suicide, all because the famous politician didn't want to admit that the person helped them. Shameless, your telling me, especially for a politician who only won back his credibility based on writings from his victim which was on the old fashion Abrahamic values such as moral integrity, honesty and justice.

And what do they achieve with their actions? sure they may be more famous and wealthier, and they may be
more connected to more famous people from their actions. But you know what.
They have proven themselves by their actions, and in their presence I can now sense something not good about them,
something slimey, something unsavoury, it is as if they have dirtied their own souls and fallen spiritually.

I often get this sense when i am around particularly slimey dishonest weasily people. just something about them that
i get a vibe from. a kind of slimey slithering manipulator cowardly sycophant kind of vibe. kind of brown tonged and shifty look in their eyes, that pulls up red flags in the back of my mind that say danger! this person is not what he proclaims to be.... i guess its a bit like having a sixth sense. although, this is only with really slimey ones.

These days, almost everyone thinks their a fly bad ass gangster who can "play" us all for fools...
so detecting everyone can be hard.... Sadly not every one can see... what slimey slug people they are....
sliming their way through the door, as their brown tongues wrap their way around your a hole and to tickle your ears, while they are abstracting the money and any other item of worth from your pockets while you are distracted.

Also, personally, knowing what such people have done in order
to get what they want from the situation, i realise that i like them less even though they are richer and more famous from their transaction. There actions basically prove to me that they lack moral integrity.

which is of high value to me. so sure, they may not care. but to me they prove that they are amoral.
Not what the world needs at the moment i think.

I think that Asperger Syndrome people are God's solution to a world of people who have all gone bad.
We are here to put the world right, and sort out those who haven fallen or allowed themselves to fall prey to temptation. (Get back Satan... from the hearts of the innocents .... lol sorry, just getting a bit overly religious and theatrical).... (bit of a mork and mindy moment)....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 1293015162



inkgirl
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10 Jul 2019, 7:02 pm

I always try to be honest, and if I accidentally deceive someone by omitting part of the story, I feel very upset because I lied. I am also a Christian, so I believe that lying and deceit are sins, but even if they weren't sins, I think I would still have trouble lying.

I hate it when people lie and deceive other people, because to me, the truth is the most important information anyone can have. Because I have black-and-white thinking, I categorize things in terms of good and bad, right and wrong, true and false. To not know whether or not something is true drives me crazy. I HAVE to know, and if I don't, if feels like my world is shifting on me.



inkgirl
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05 Aug 2019, 8:33 pm

For me, the stereotype is true. I almost never lie. If there's something I don't want to say, I may omit some parts of the story, but I try to always remain truthful and not lie or deceive. I don't like omitting the truth. I'm terrible at lying, because I always tell people I lied after the fact.

When I was a kid, I was known as always being truthful, and being "unable" to lie, because I always told the truth. Because of this, it was rare that I would be blamed for anything, because I was the "goodie two shoes" of the household.



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06 Aug 2019, 3:30 am

inkgirl wrote:
I always try to be honest, and if I accidentally deceive someone by omitting part of the story, I feel very upset because I lied. I am also a Christian, so I believe that lying and deceit are sins, but even if they weren't sins, I think I would still have trouble lying.

I hate it when people lie and deceive other people, because to me, the truth is the most important information anyone can have. Because I have black-and-white thinking, I categorize things in terms of good and bad, right and wrong, true and false. To not know whether or not something is true drives me crazy. I HAVE to know, and if I don't, if feels like my world is shifting on me.


I feel that lying is standing on a false foundation which could collapse at any moment. I did used to lie as a child before I learnt that it just does not work etc. I soon learnt that lies need more lies to cover them, and then more and it all got so complicated that one false move in ones mind and everything comes tumbling down. I became a Christian when I was about 13 when the Lord found me.

Where I get issues with is grey areas where I am forced to answer where I have to take a guess. It makes me panic inside. I want a yes or no situation where I know the truth and can say the truth. I also hate situations where others try to get me to lie to cover for them as it all comes tumbling down and it is my fault as I try to avoid answering directly as I want to e trustworthy for them, but I wznt to avoid all lies as well. It is a horrible position to be in as it is all in turmoil... How can people live like that? Maybe they can't and they have no peace? I don't know. I know (And this is another reason why I try not to lie, is that occasionally I get moments where my brain goes into an overload of pressure and my mind recalls the times when I have messed up... Is this a meltdown? I don't know. All I know is that they don't happen often, and they seem to happen at night (Or I don't notice so much in the day?) where I also have a claustrophobic feel and I want to get out! But out is in if you see what I mean? And daytime out feels more like out so it is less notideable to me... If they are a form of meltdown I probably get them about once a year? Maybe less? A gradual build up of pressure and stress i side my mind... Feels like exploding! I feel like screaming for it to go. Also, I have to be very careful I don't do anything stupid, as I once teied to write letters to correct my past when feeling like this and I don't think they would have gone down well and may have not made any sense. Once I was feelingnon the fringes like this and I went down the hill on my bicycle, put a letter in through the door of someones house and I cycled in the dark (With lights) and got back up the hill (3 miles ride each way... 2 miles of hill climbing of a mostly 1 in 5 hill with one part being a 1 in 4), and I seemed to get back as quick as I would if I did it by car! I don't know how I did it!
I got into trouble. The young lady was being teased as I had given her a lift home from work instead of her getting a bus. I had done it once or twice. Some of the other workers were making comments that we were an item. I felt for her that she would feel awkward. I wrote a note saying that it would be better if I didn't give her a lift (Can't remember exact words as I wasn't thinking straight. Is all a bluur to try to recall it). I didn't put my name on it as I assumed she would know straighr away, bur I put her name on the letter. I didn't know that she had a dissabled sister who was a bit fragile mentally at the time... What had happened is the young lady I worked with had an admirer who kept putting love letters through their letterbox and the dissabled sister would read them and pnic. Their mother was overprotective and called the police in each time (Despite the letters not addressed to the sister she would open them).
So when I put my letter in, the lady didn't think it was me... I got into so much trouble!
I have to really sit still and try to do nothing when I get into the pressure situations like this in my mind. I daren't shout. I daren't speak.. They are horrible to get. I feel like I want it to be daytime and head to town and watch people go about daily life so I can get rid of the claustrophobic feeling I get with the pressure as a night, when I am stuck inside, or if I do go out in the dark where theee is nothing there... No one to meet etc... It is soo pressurized inside my mind that "GRRRR!" I don't know how to release it... Yet, when it does release there is such calm and peace. Is like it never happened? Is like being in Heaven.... The feeling... Usually by the time peace comes I am ready to sleep.. And all is over. I am free! I wake up fine! Strange eh?


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