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ASPartOfMe
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25 Nov 2019, 3:19 pm

Over the years I have seen a lot of statements by neurodiversity opponents opposing what they think the ND movement stands for. Some of these perceptions are completely correct, some are partially correct, and some completely wrong. If you are a ND movement opponent I don’t expect you to agree with most of the positions below but it is not too much to ask to understand what the leading autistic rights/neurodiversity organization actually think.
https://autisticadvocacy.org/about-asan/position-statements/


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26 Nov 2019, 8:54 am

Pretty much confirms everything negative about Nd i ever said on here:

Nothing without us: who's us exactly? The individual making their own choices fine, but if referring to Autistic people as a whole many are unable to make a decision at all and many may not agree with their position on cure so its a flawed position.

Autism should not be cured in principal : Says who exactly? Was their a vote i missed? Does everyone agree? Do we all want to have autism? Who says it wont be cured for future generations? Who says there wont be effective treatment to releive many symptoms in 20-30 years?

Another flawed position, at least i say personal choice not dictating to others or pretending to speak for those that may not agree. I prefer the 360 degree policy of medical research for a cure whether now or 200 years, along with sociatal / employment changes.


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26 Nov 2019, 10:13 am

Many Autism rights groups portray themselves as victims of systemic oppression, ignoring those of us who do not suffer from *systemic* oppression but rather natural human exclusion that is endemic to human nature, misunderstandings, etc... Or do suffer from the condition itself and want a cure.

ASAN's stances other than the no-cure thing, which erases all the AS individuals who do want a cure, aren't bad per se. They're just not super effective imo for many on the spectrum.


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26 Nov 2019, 6:54 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:
Many Autism rights groups portray themselves as victims of systemic oppression, ignoring those of us who do not suffer from *systemic* oppression but rather natural human exclusion that is endemic to human nature, misunderstandings, etc...

"Natural human exclusion" is systemic oppression. Many people in general tend "naturally" to be prejudiced against people different from themselves (in whatever way: race, cultural background, economic class, etc. -- as well as neurology), or at least to have difficulty empathizing with people different from themselves, unless specific efforts are made to counter-balance this.


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27 Nov 2019, 4:31 am

mona wrote:
"Natural human exclusion" is systemic oppression. Many people in general tend "naturally" to be prejudiced against people different from themselves (in whatever way: race, cultural background, economic class, etc. -- as well as neurology), or at least to have difficulty empathizing with people different from themselves, unless specific efforts are made to counter-balance this.


The only main group who have difficulty "empathizing with people different from themselves" are groups like ASAN, that alienate and offend a large % of its would be supporters with crass insensitive policy statements that bear no distinction between the severity of symptoms or how large numbers of people feel about it.

I know this well as i saw my aunt have to bury her son with another neurological condition, given that some severe autistics live to 36 the principals are the same. What would people like her think when told theres a group campaigning against a cure for what her son died with?

ASAN casual assumption that everyone thinks the same as them and trying to form a movement while offending about half of your target members is as your president would probably say "not smart".LOL

For all its faults at least Autism Speaks maintains an intelligent neutral position in respect to cure.


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27 Nov 2019, 4:47 am

carlos55 wrote:
mona wrote:
"Natural human exclusion" is systemic oppression. Many people in general tend "naturally" to be prejudiced against people different from themselves (in whatever way: race, cultural background, economic class, etc. -- as well as neurology), or at least to have difficulty empathizing with people different from themselves, unless specific efforts are made to counter-balance this.


The only main group who have difficulty "empathizing with people different from themselves" are groups like ASAN, that alienate and offend a large % of its would be supporters with crass insensitive policy statements that bear no distinction between the severity of symptoms or how large numbers of people feel about it.

I know this well as i saw my aunt have to bury her son with another neurological condition, given that some severe autistics live to 36 the principals are the same. What would people like her think when told theres a group campaigning against a cure for what her son died with?

ASAN casual assumption that everyone thinks the same as them and trying to form a movement while offending about half of your target members is as your president would probably say "not smart".LOL

For all its faults at least Autism Speaks maintains an intelligent neutral position in respect to cure.


There's no such thing as a cure for autism. It has to do with neurobiological factors regarding the brain itself. You can't cure that, so you should rather focus on providing supports for the autistic people that are already her.



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27 Nov 2019, 9:53 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
Many Autism rights groups portray themselves as victims of systemic oppression, ignoring those of us who do not suffer from *systemic* oppression but rather natural human exclusion that is endemic to human nature, misunderstandings, etc...

"Natural human exclusion" is systemic oppression. Many people in general tend "naturally" to be prejudiced against people different from themselves (in whatever way: race, cultural background, economic class, etc. -- as well as neurology), or at least to have difficulty empathizing with people different from themselves, unless specific efforts are made to counter-balance this.


So there is a touch of ethnocentrism to every culture. This will probably be my college leftist indoctrination speaking, but the materials I've read in class suggest that systemic racism is a product of post-1500s colonialism that created concrete categories of race and consciously instituted oppressive structures put in place to arbitrarily disadvantage perfectly functional individuals.

By contrast, to demand acceptance of my classmates for example, in practice what would that look like? We can't carry on natural conversations, cross boundaries, misinterpret nonverbal cues, and frequently make others feel uncomfortable or even offend others. Our conversation styles aren't terribly reciprocal (I have to be very mindful of back-and-forth conversation, which is frequently mechanical on my part). We also struggle with executive functioning, time management, motor coordination. You can't chalk that up to systemic oppression.

I'm not saying that ASAN's policies aren't good, but that it's hard to portray oneself as a victim of oppression when "Autism" is not an arbitrary label with completely unjustified stigma. Yes, there are absolutely negative stereotypes that need to be combatted. Yes, we should absolutely be given more media and pop culture representation. Yes, we need to be able to design our own studies and policies, etc. But no one can deny that many of the things we struggle with are inherent and in need of correction.

ASD is a diagnosis given with disability in mind. I was 10 and given the dx because I couldn't function well. By contrast, racialized oppression established racial categories in order to form a concrete racist system.

I actually like the idea of Autism-friendly workplaces as you've suggested. My thing is that I am skeptical of overall society accepting us any time in the near future.


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27 Nov 2019, 10:40 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
Many Autism rights groups portray themselves as victims of systemic oppression, ignoring those of us who do not suffer from *systemic* oppression but rather natural human exclusion that is endemic to human nature, misunderstandings, etc...

"Natural human exclusion" is systemic oppression. Many people in general tend "naturally" to be prejudiced against people different from themselves (in whatever way: race, cultural background, economic class, etc. -- as well as neurology), or at least to have difficulty empathizing with people different from themselves, unless specific efforts are made to counter-balance this.


So there is a touch of ethnocentrism to every culture. This will probably be my college leftist indoctrination speaking, but the materials I've read in class suggest that systemic racism is a product of post-1500s colonialism that created concrete categories of race and consciously instituted oppressive structures put in place to arbitrarily disadvantage perfectly functional individuals.

By contrast, to demand acceptance of my classmates for example, in practice what would that look like? We can't carry on natural conversations, cross boundaries, misinterpret nonverbal cues, and frequently make others feel uncomfortable or even offend others. Our conversation styles aren't terribly reciprocal (I have to be very mindful of back-and-forth conversation, which is frequently mechanical on my part). We also struggle with executive functioning, time management, motor coordination. You can't chalk that up to systemic oppression.

I'm not saying that ASAN's policies aren't good, but that it's hard to portray oneself as a victim of oppression when "Autism" is not an arbitrary label with completely unjustified stigma. Yes, there are absolutely negative stereotypes that need to be combatted. Yes, we should absolutely be given more media and pop culture representation. Yes, we need to be able to design our own studies and policies, etc. But no one can deny that many of the things we struggle with are inherent and in need of correction.

ASD is a diagnosis given with disability in mind. I was 10 and given the dx because I couldn't function well. By contrast, racialized oppression established racial categories in order to form a concrete racist system.

I actually like the idea of Autism-friendly workplaces as you've suggested. My thing is that I am skeptical of overall society accepting us any time in the near future.

I could argue that while we should accept them homosexuals are inherently disordered because they are impaired from procreating, I could argue that being black is a disorder because they are prone to crime and shorter life span. Your left wing indoctrinators would not like that too much.

Racism comes from the same motivations as ableism fear of difference and not wanting to share.


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27 Nov 2019, 10:59 am

[quote"AsPartOfMe] I could argue that while we should accept them homosexuals are inherently disordered because they are impaired from procreating, I could argue that being black is a disorder because they are prone to crime and shorter life span. Your left wing indoctrinators would not like that too much. [/quote]

I suggest your simply stretching things to suit your narrative. At the end of the day someone's boss prob doesnt care if their employee goes home to a man or woman, they might care if their inefficient because they spend alot of their time Stimming for example.

As mentioned there's no comparison between being imprisoned in your own brain and disabled for it and being a member of a different culture some outsiders may think negativly about but able bodied and mind.


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27 Nov 2019, 12:01 pm

carlos55 wrote:
[quote"AsPartOfMe] I could argue that while we should accept them homosexuals are inherently disordered because they are impaired from procreating, I could argue that being black is a disorder because they are prone to crime and shorter life span. Your left wing indoctrinators would not like that too much.

I suggest your simply stretching things to suit your narrative. At the end of the day someone's boss prob doesnt care if their employee goes home to a man or woman, they might care if their inefficient because they spend alot of their time Stimming for example.

As mentioned there's no comparison between being imprisoned in your own brain and disabled for it and being a member of a different culture some outsiders may think negativly about but able bodied and mind.

A lot of bosses do care about who someone goes home to but it could get them in legal trouble if they voice these concerns or act upon them. It used to be accepted that if it was discovered you were a homosexual you would be fired because it would be bad public image for the company effecting the bottom line. It changed because the gays unlike the autistics did not accept the expert consensus of the time which was they were mentally ill deviants destined to a life of misery. The bosses that don’t care do so because they grew up at a time of acceptance and even if they don’t accept it publicly being labeled a homophobic company is bad for the bottom line.

Those psychiatrists thought homosexual misery was a an inherent part of the condition, the effects of stigmatization were not taken into account. Same has been true with ASD.

Homosexuality and race are not the same as autism, but there are also a lot parallels in regards to misery and thinking about these as well as reasons for misery.


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27 Nov 2019, 2:29 pm

The problems with crime being linked to race are environmental. My point is that as Autistics we are inherently wired such that we display functional deficits in the realm of social and executive function. Certainly comorbid health issues could be due to social isolation, but who someone goes home to or what race they are have nothing inherently to do with day to day functioning. Same cannot be said of AS.


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27 Nov 2019, 4:52 pm

Mona posted an interesting quote on the other thread from Neurodiversity founder Judy Singer. Basically, she said Neurodiversity was just about acceptance and understanding of disabilities:

quote :"But I never intended my passion for rights for Neurodiverse populations to mean that everything neurodiverse was inherently good! How absurd. I intended Neurodiversity to mean that we need to see more clearly when not just other people’s behaviours but also our own are “hardwired” and respond appropriately. It’s a call for careful observation, acceptance and understanding of difference, but not a call for “anything goes”."

viewtopic.php?t=382758

So clearly in the Hive “Groupthink” environment of the internet the original idea was twisted into something she never intended. Like many things that start out with noble intentions end up bad. Throw in some brittle ego`s, fear of the medical establishment and twisted logic with low empathy and the original idea gets corrupted and absurdly distorted.

Looks like pedophiles are jumping on the bandwagon of neurodiversity too, claiming natural difference. The brain is intrinsically linked to behaviour so its important for society that there`s a right and wrong in “brain wiring”. I guess when you open that can of worms all sorts of bad people start justifying their behaviour on natural difference.

https://hiveofluminosity.blogspot.com/2 ... sm-to.html


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27 Nov 2019, 8:05 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:
The problems with crime being linked to race are environmental. My point is that as Autistics we are inherently wired such that we display functional deficits in the realm of social and executive function. Certainly comorbid health issues could be due to social isolation, but who someone goes home to or what race they are have nothing inherently to do with day to day functioning. Same cannot be said of AS.

Environment can have a lot to do with autistic day to day functioning. Put an autistic in an environment where introversion is looked down upon, group activities and multitasking expected and demanded, where loners are looked upon with suspicion, where there is a lot of sensory bombardment the autistic is not going to function well his or her or they traits will be looked upon as deficits. This is the United States circa 2019. Put the same person in a society where eye contact is considered rude, loud indiscriminate talking to a stranger is considered rude and the same person will be more functional. There are societies where social rules are quite different from America's.

It will depend on the person and there are some autistic traits that especially if they are "severe" will render a person dysfunctional. I believe ND opponents greatly underestimate how much autistics are disabled by their environment compared to their autism.

This is why the question raised in the other thread about comorbids is so important. If epilepsy, depression, anxiety, stomach issues, executive dysfunctions, OCD and all the other conditions now considered common comorbids are actually autistic symptoms then autism is the horrible disease ND opponents claim it is. If the ND supporters are correct and these are not autistic traits then mental illness co morbids probably have a lot to do with being a minority. The physical ones would be related also because mental distress can cause physical illness.


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27 Nov 2019, 9:05 pm

We would likely commit social indiscretions in any society. Being Autistic means not picking up on social rules at all.

To "emancipate" Autistics you would have to completely change the way everyone socializes with everyone on a regular basis. Something that I don't see happening.


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28 Nov 2019, 4:38 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:
We would likely commit social indiscretions in any society. Being Autistic means not picking up on social rules at all.

Even going by the medical model this is literally not true. Disability does not necessarily mean inability.

We would likely commit social indiscretions because pretty much everybody does.

As for society making a difference I have experienced this.

Back in the 80s, I was able to obtain regular employment that I was increasingly unable to during the 90s and 00s. What changed? Back then if you worked at certain jobs you were expected to work alone. I was counseled a number of times that you and your boss do not have to like each other just be professional. The saying was "This is a place of business, not a social club". For a lot if not most jobs "Team Player" was not listed as a job requirement. The average candidate did not have to go through multiple interviews and personality tests designed to weed out nonteam players. While I was definitely "different" I think if I were assessed back then using the current criteria I would have been laughed out of the psychologist's office. By 2013 I was unemployable and my clinician said she had no problem diagnosing me with Aspergers.

My social and other mistakes did not go viral.

You can now "Ok Boomer" me :D


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28 Nov 2019, 9:46 am

AsPartOfMe wrote:
This is why the question raised in the other thread about comorbids is so important. If epilepsy, depression, anxiety, stomach issues, executive dysfunctions, OCD and all the other conditions now considered common comorbids are actually autistic symptoms then autism is the horrible disease ND opponents claim it is. If the ND supporters are correct and these are not autistic traits then mental illness co morbids probably have a lot to do with being a minority. The physical ones would be related also because mental distress can cause physical illness.


Im sorry to have to break it to you but all autistic people need to read more things written by scientists who have actually studied post mortem brains under a microscope and less from so called "social justice warriors", who wear rose tinted glasses and dont know what their talking about, or worse are spreading their own self serving agenda.

The scientific consensus among scientists in laymans terms is autism is the malformation of the brain caused by neuronal migration problems caused by as yet unknown environmental / genetic causes.

Under examination autistic brains are peppered with dead neurons that never reached their ultimate destination, one of the main effects among others of this, is a malformed cerebal cortex that leeks signals causing many of the main sensory overload associated with the condition.

Of course its a spectrum of severity or damage / malformation just a question of how bad.

Regarding co morbids and chicken and egg senario of what came first.

They say you can tell a persons character by the company they keep, well in autism thats especially true being co morbid with an alphabet soup of negative brain conditions ocd, adhd, anxiety, depression, bi polar , schizophrenia and others

Autism itself is co morbid in down syndrome in 1 in 5 cases.

At the end of the day i beleive people are welcome to beleive what they like provided they dont impose their beliefs on others.

One of the biggest issues with extreamist religions is they attempt to dictate on others like what women should wear, alcohol, sexuality and what people should do which is morally wrong.

Wanting to be cured or not is a personal thing (if it ever happens )and they have no right to impose their beliefs on the rest of us.


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