Identity Politics and Autistic Guilt

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White? tick
Male ? tick
Middle class upbringing? tick
Privately educated? tick

Those would automatically get me labelled as 'privileged' , regardless of the social drift that's occurred due to my having a serious/severe mental illness and being on the spectrum.

Well, I do find it amusing that you are using an appeal to authority as the basis for you stating his ideas are correct. If your only defense of Peterson is his authority, then it is not for me to try again. Nice try.

However, as posted above, the idea that Marxism is the most destructive political/economic system devised does not really show much understanding of Marxism, the history of the Soviet Union and China (or dictatorial/fascist systems in general), or the destructive nature of other political/economic systems. Naturally, comparing Marxism to the two World Wars shows a great deal of irony as somehow it implies the wars were causeless and had no underlying political/economic drivers.

RIGHT ON!

WRONG!

Where did I say he was correct?  I only said he was "eminently qualified".

Evidence, please?

And how much of that background gives you advantages? And yes, your mental illness is not an advantage. Just as if someone was abused as a child will give the risk for worse outcomes. Do you think you would have had better outcomes if you were black, female, poor, and no education? I can tell you, that is very unlikely (but not impossible).

I think the problem with the concept of "privilege" is that it implies so advantage that is easily identifiable, like being born into royalty. That is not really what it is staying. Rather, these socioeconomic factors tip the scales. It does not mean a particular individual will not have a difficult life, what it states is certain variables will help or hinder your chances.

And I think this is difficult. I don't think I have an easy life, but I also recognize that others have more of a head wind. I was luck to be able to afford an education. I was lucky that my socioeconomic background gave me experiences not afforded to others. My autism certainly has not helped--there was/is a head wind there. It is hard to extract your own experience from this conversation sometimes.

And this becomes interesting in terms of disability. Do you think your illness has had no impact on your life? Do you think we should make no accommodations to disabled people? Because if you don't believe personal factors change outcomes, then you believe in meritocracy--your outcomes are solely decided by your effort and talent. Because there is plenty of evidence that disability does in fact cause negative outcomes that have nothing directly related to the disability. I don't think I am ready to give up the ADA.

This is it in a nutshell: is the world a level playing field?

^ Are you implying that white people should somehow share feelings of guilt for having been born white?

No.

(Sorry, but "white guilt" is not a logical construct and a kind of trope in some political circles: I am autistic and peer pressure as never been very effective with me. )

What we can do is recognize the imbalance in our system and try to make a more equitable world.

Sure, the system is imbalanced.  Yes, we should all try to make a more equitable world.

Let's start by getting thugs, drop-outs, junkies, and criminals to believe that education, knowledge, and understanding of STEM (or even HASS) courses are essential for the maintenance and growth of a civilized society.

It is impossible to produce a more equitable world when ignorant people are running wild and lawless in the streets.

Point taken. Leading or oft-quoted advocates would have been a better choice of words.

For me the whole 'privilege' thing is akin to the medieval 'trial by ordeal' whereby the chances of avoiding a negative outcome (being accused of being privileged for example) are negligible at best.

Certain factors which are due to an accident of birth are given a greater weighting than others where the individual may not have been so fortunate. In essence quite a degree of cherry picking goes on .

Last edited by firemonkey on 29 Jul 2020, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes, thank you! There is evidence that we can look to, we don't have to guess.

Everyone can have their own opinions, but not their own facts.

But the more important issue is the absolute horror that is racism in America. Fighting against racism is so important that I would not care if the people in BLM were all scumbags with whom I disagreed politically in every other way, I would still support BLM. (But in reality they are actually pretty great.)

It is complex, especially when you try to relate it to personal experience. And you are right that these are weighted in probability. Working in the social sciences, if the model is good (and cherry picking has no benefit), then outcomes can be pretty accurately predicted, at least for populations. But you are also right in assuming that models don't test for every variable--disability is not included in most general studies, but it does not mean that study does not have important information. And models cannot predict an individual outcome, just probabilities based on a populations.

And I think that is the point about a level playing field. We want to attempt to give everyone an equal chance. If you have a 100 yard dash, but some are allowed to start at the 50 yard mark and some have concrete shoes, then that is not good. Sure, a really fast runner could still beat a slow runner starting at 50 yards, but I don't think anyone would think it equitable. But sometimes it is also good to put a thumb on a scale. That is the point of the ADA and its accommodations for disability.

But as far as policy goes, it is a complex problem. How do you balance the personal with the collective? That is a debate that is older than this one. Do you target systemic issues or individual ones. It is tough. Generally it is a combination of both. Denying one in favor of the other simply does not work: it is not an either/or problem.

A lot of people don't understand the complexity of Jordan Peterson.
It is much easier to malign him than to try and see his point of view.

People can be rather simplistic when they simply swim in the shallows of mainstream philosophy.
Nature of the human beast not to put the effort into comprehensively investigating concepts.
C'est la vie

As you could tell by my previous reply to you, I wasn't interested in getting into a political cage fighting match.
However, I have had some caffeine and I a little more energised than usual.
Also, while you seem passionate, you also seem to be a reasonable person, hence my response here.

I'm in Australia.
I haven't been following the BLM in America to a profound degree.
My concerns are what is happening here in Oz.

I am outraged, and that very very rarely happens to me.

I am outraged by the Australian BLM.
I am outraged that the organisers of the Oz BLM are using the American tragedy to further their cause here.
I am outraged that they are corrupting the facts of what happens here in the Australian Corrective Services.
I am outraged at the stupidity of organising a protest in a pandemic.
I am outraged that they are putting vulnerable people's health and lives in danger.

I am disgusted to the point they have destroyed any goodwill I had for the Australia BLM movement.

You may crucify me at your leisure now.
<Pepe lies down on the cross provided, waiting for his hands and feet to be nailed>