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carlos55
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16 Oct 2020, 11:16 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:
starkid wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
starkid wrote:
What is the purpose of making such a point, though? Who is creating or trying to create organizations or movements that treat all autistic people the same?


Well Neurodiversity movement & ASAN for a start. They use "we" alot in respect to anti cure & potential biological treatments. They believe every autistic person feels the same way as them & claim to talk on behalf of all. Over the heads of those with different views or are unable to express a view.

Do you have any proof that ASAN as a whole and the neurodiversity movement as a whole (not just a few individual members) believe that? Any of these "we" statements on ASAN's website that clearly refer to all autistic people?


Saying "we" and "Autistic people" and conflating all of us with that diagnosis into one opinion/hivemind is dehumanizing.


Yes agree.

Everyone is free to have an opinion and speak for themselves.

Same for multiple people who join groups like ASAN that support a particular opinion that celebrates their autism as a difference nothing wrong with that.

Many just find it annoying when they assume everyone thinks like them or agrees with them on their disability and then try to lobby for their anti cure agenda over our heads claiming we all speak as one.

Even religions and political parties aren’t arrogant to assume everyone agrees with them so why ASAN & those like them.



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16 Oct 2020, 12:28 pm

^ It's the same with service users on mental health panels. They'll push for things that suit people at their level,and not give much consideration for others not at that level.


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madbutnotmad
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16 Oct 2020, 12:45 pm

I understand. People are upset with some people's attitudes towards people with a formal diagnosis.
I can understand that, especially as quiet a few people still hold the old fashion perception that people with autism have an intellectual impairment or retardation.

I am very high functioning, with an above average IQ, so am offended if someone treats me as if i have an intellectual impairment, which unfortunately does happen for example, in Autism Support Services, where people who have been working for many years supporting people who have an intellectual disability who used to be classified as having autism, suddenly started to offer services to people who do not have an intellectual impairment after Asperger Syndrome diagnosis was included in the umbrella ASD term.

My diagnosis actually distinguishes the type of ASD person i am. Autism Spectrum Disorder, asperger syndrome variety.

This does clarify my diagnosis. Which perhaps is important. No offense to anyone who does have an intellectual impairment. I personally see all sentient beings as equal, regardless as to level of wealth, looks, disability or IQ level.



Whale_Tuune
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16 Oct 2020, 6:42 pm

firemonkey wrote:
^ It's the same with service users on mental health panels. They'll push for things that suit people at their level,and not give much consideration for others not at that level.


The whole mental health system is a s**tshow to begin with. u_u


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cyberdad
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16 Oct 2020, 7:23 pm

madbutnotmad wrote:
I am very high functioning, with an above average IQ, so am offended if someone treats me as if i have an intellectual impairment, which unfortunately does happen for example, in Autism Support Services, where people who have been working for many years supporting people who have an intellectual disability who used to be classified as having autism, suddenly started to offer services to people who do not have an intellectual impairment after Asperger Syndrome diagnosis was included in the umbrella ASD term.


I don't think the public care about the level of distinction you are making. Like with "race" all they care is how you present to them,

For example, a very light skinned person with one distant black ancestor might not want to be considered "black:" since they are 75% white and can "pass" for white. A very high functioning person (like yourself) can pass for NT and likewise may not need to say they are considered autistic. In addition both the HFA and light skinned person risk offending the majority when expressing their inner thoughts as they are perceived to carry certain privileges that come with how they are perceived by mainstream society.

Secondly don't forget, while you may not need ASD services, there are thousands of parents of aspies who have been fighting to access government services for years which are not available prior to 2013 dues their diagnosis. These younger aspies have benefited financially so its a little disingenuous to ignore their needs.

It boils to a simple choice, if you are stigmatised by being lumped with people who are cognitively impaired then why do you need to mention your diagnosis? just tell people (if you have to) that you have mild Aspergers, nobody is going to interrogate you or care, frankly the average NT has no idea about the difference.



cyberdad
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16 Oct 2020, 7:25 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
^ It's the same with service users on mental health panels. They'll push for things that suit people at their level,and not give much consideration for others not at that level.


The whole mental health system is a s**tshow to begin with. u_u


On the flipside its not an endless bucket of money. Resources are naturally allocated where they are most needed.



EEngineer75
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16 Oct 2020, 10:35 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0321-0

"Overall, the push to understand heterogeneity is critical as we attempt to move towards precision medicine, which will need to be embedded in a person-centered, lifespan-informed, shared decision-making and collaborative planning of care to provide holistic support for each unique autistic individual."


Whale_Tuune wrote:
What does everyone think?

I'm not personally interested in political or social movements--except to say that I do appreciate the benefits of people efforts--especially when they are groundbreaking and positive, constructive, and/or helpfully informative.


I personally hope that finer classifications could help direct understanding, treatment, coaching, etc. I strongly think the future of medicine needs to include more "precision medicine." We're all very different in many ways--if even at any given point in time, much less in genes, epigenome, brain wiring, experiences, situational circumstances, etc., etc., etc. :D :( 8O 8) :oops: :jester: :afro: :salut: :nerdy: :albino: :batman: :smurf: :tired: :|


I also think parenting, education, employment, and really any interpersonal situation could benefit from more understanding of each individual's strengths, weaknesses, preferences, etc. :mrgreen: (Unless that understanding is asymmetric AND someone is taking advantage of the other party: :x )


And, while I am to understand that some folks have an aversion to being labelled, tested, or characterized externally, I do not: I'd love to know more about why my brain works the way it does, how it varies from others', and how I could benefit from this kind of knowledge in various endeavors. :nerdy:


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firemonkey
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17 Oct 2020, 4:11 am

cyberdad wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
^ It's the same with service users on mental health panels. They'll push for things that suit people at their level,and not give much consideration for others not at that level.


The whole mental health system is a s**tshow to begin with. u_u


On the flipside its not an endless bucket of money. Resources are naturally allocated where they are most needed.


How much a service user is doing as well as the average person.

1. 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 25 100 100 100 100 100 25
2. 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35

The 1st person gets the support more than the 2nd person. Although for the vast majority of time the 2nd person is faring less well.

That's the situation in the UK.


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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 133 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 47 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)


Edna3362
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18 Oct 2020, 11:09 am

8O I'm quite grateful about infos such as these.

In terms of discussion, anything to do with formal systems and it's resources allocation, insurance and several services or accomodations usually goes over my head.

Why? :lol:
From where I came from, only those who are, well, top 30% or so richest could only hope to ever keep up with western standards of treatment.
And I'm not one of them.


So any input of advice I give and sometimes take -- zero budgets or improvised, all of them.
Not because of stigma, anti-treatment sentiments, or this ego clinging identity, but out of sheer unavailability.

Therefore, situation from where I came from is this; there is no such thing as 'mental health support'. :lol: Because the idea of funding anything that resembles as such may not even exists.
So the supports that exists here are mostly informal, done through networks, favors and occassionally volunteering...



Advocacy is also different here; acceptance and tolerance here are easier, but implementations are harder if not less possible.
To implement, we (people from here) work around the system that just constantly fails us (me and people here).


What boggles me sometimes is that you guys from abroad had more resources, awareness, ideas and knowledge that I'm sure years ahead.

Yet the overall attitudinal and content of narrative contexts sucks.
And from what I observed this had little to do with semantics, let alone the English language issues with the word 'we'.

Perhaps you guys had to go deeper...
Learn more about the social dynamics and narratives, then how to tackle from the root causes of contexts.

Which narrative persists, which didn't.

A hint I can give is this;
Why autism is no longer associated with schizophrenia yet it is persistently associated with either intellectual disability or forms of ASPD?

Logically, autism should've leaned more with the resonating narratives of anxiety and learning disabilities.
Yet in narrative at large that didn't happened -- because that's not how humans take it to contexts.



Oh, and I'd say 'autism' is on the same classes or category as any learning disability; it's natural and yet environmentally imposed due to social changes.
Yet at the same time, there are gaps as to how to differentiate it from innate wiring to traumas and hormonal issues.


Personally, I'd fix my hormones I've been trying to cope against.
But wiring is another thing altogether -- in my own case I know how to adapt to it long ago.

The wiring itself didn't stopped me from accessing the skills I already had.
Yet issues, be it circumstantial or secondary consequences and effects from the wiring, do.


I'm already what many can consider 'HFA', yet I still considered myself trapped in my own body. :lol:
This is coming from someone without a major comorbidity. While I don't desire to be normal or be social -- I still desire to be competent.


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quite an extreme
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18 Oct 2020, 4:11 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:
The whole mental health system is a s**tshow to begin with. u_u

That's right and for this you are right. You are a lot like me but most people here are very different to us and don't even like the idea of finding ways to improve. We need to separate the different problems for finding the related reasons or helping the people to deal with them. I don't give a sh*t on autism as a community if it comes to this because that doesn't helps any of us to improve with our problems. The people here aren't the same way different to NTs nor do they face the same problems once it comes to social interaction with other people.


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EEngineer75
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19 Oct 2020, 12:32 am

Edna3362 wrote:
8O I'm quite grateful about infos such as these.

Yes, me, too.

(Pardon me while I break down what all interesting points you proposed in an effort to understand them.)

Edna3362 wrote:
Perhaps you guys had to go deeper... Learn more about the social dynamics and narratives, then how to tackle from the root causes of contexts.

Comment: Figuring out and tackling Root Causes! I wish society(ies)--and people, and doctors--did more of this. (I'm an engineer.)


Edna3362 wrote:
Which narrative persists, which didn't.

A hint I can give is this;
Why autism is no longer associated with schizophrenia yet it is persistently associated with either intellectual disability or forms of ASPD?

Logically, autism should've leaned more with the resonating narratives of anxiety and learning disabilities.
Yet in narrative at large that didn't happened -- because that's not how humans take it to contexts.

Oh, and I'd say 'autism' is on the same classes or category as any learning disability; it's natural and yet environmentally imposed due to social changes.
Yet at the same time, there are gaps as to how to differentiate it from innate wiring to traumas and hormonal issues.

If I understand a few of your later points:
1-You're saying that ASD "is persistently associated with either intellectual disability or forms of [AntiSocial Personality Disorder]".
2-...that ASD should logically be seen as various learning disabilities--impediments to learning the same things that most people might say are needed, everyday skills & capabilities.
3-"that's not how humans take it to contexts." -- That's not how NTs take it in their context.
4-"it's natural and yet environmentally imposed due to social changes." It is a result of "natural" ...differences in people... but also "environmentally imposed" (situationally dependent)... "social changes" (modern society?).

Are these accurate re-phrasings of those points?


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Edna3362
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19 Oct 2020, 1:12 am

EEngineer75 wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Which narrative persists, which didn't.

A hint I can give is this;
Why autism is no longer associated with schizophrenia yet it is persistently associated with either intellectual disability or forms of ASPD?

Logically, autism should've leaned more with the resonating narratives of anxiety and learning disabilities.
Yet in narrative at large that didn't happened -- because that's not how humans take it to contexts.

Oh, and I'd say 'autism' is on the same classes or category as any learning disability; it's natural and yet environmentally imposed due to social changes.
Yet at the same time, there are gaps as to how to differentiate it from innate wiring to traumas and hormonal issues.

If I understand a few of your later points:
1-You're saying that ASD "is persistently associated with either intellectual disability or forms of [AntiSocial Personality Disorder]".
2-...that ASD should logically be seen as various learning disabilities--impediments to learning the same things that most people might say are needed, everyday skills & capabilities.
3-"that's not how humans take it to contexts." -- That's not how NTs take it in their context.
4-"it's natural and yet environmentally imposed due to social changes." It is a result of "natural" ...differences in people... but also "environmentally imposed" (situationally dependent)... "social changes" (modern society?).

Are these accurate re-phrasings of those points?

Most points of your interpretations seems right. :)

Point 1 is 'how point 3 tends to sees it'.
Point 2 is 'what point 3 fails to see it as'.
The discrepancy between narratives of different sources.

:lol: It doesn't even have to be all NTs for a suspect.
But simply how crowds or the majority sees it based on their respective contexts, how it persisted and endured overtime, and how some points discarded and changed overtime.

There's always this funny way how a crowd sees it from how a person sees it...

EEngineer75 wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Perhaps you guys had to go deeper... Learn more about the social dynamics and narratives, then how to tackle from the root causes of contexts.

Comment: Figuring out and tackling Root Causes! I wish society(ies)--and people, and doctors--did more of this. (I'm an engineer.)

And it's not easy to tackle that even if it's root cause are identified.


One hypothetical example would be 'how would a nation can let go of their historical grudges and massive angst'?
And do they even actually want to?

How did this society hold and maintain it's grudges, it's misunderstandings, it's attitudes and way of being, it's negative percepts, it's reasoning over a certain memory or idea and for how long?
:lol: Anyone could've scaled this down, into relevant terms of medical/mental health/disabilities domain and narrow down specifically to autism.

But that's not my job. :twisted: I can only give ideas and let others fly with it.


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cyberdad
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19 Oct 2020, 1:23 am

quite an extreme wrote:
I don't give a sh*t on autism as a community if it comes to this because that doesn't helps any of us to improve with our problems. The people here aren't the same way different to NTs nor do they face the same problems once it comes to social interaction with other people.


I agree, but there are those on the higher end of the spectrum who want a community. Pretty sure this was a driving force behind Alex starting Wrong Planet in the first place. So there you go....you are still here so you do care :lol:



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19 Oct 2020, 1:26 am

firemonkey wrote:
How much a service user is doing as well as the average person.

1. 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 25 100 100 100 100 100 25
2. 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35 35

The 1st person gets the support more than the 2nd person. Although for the vast majority of time the 2nd person is faring less well.

That's the situation in the UK.


I get your point FM. At the end of the day its (ironically) NTs who decide who gets whatever funds are available, The Australian model called the NDIS operates on a needs model where money is allocated based on specific needs rather than budgetary constraints. However this model is limited by the incompetence of those reviewing applicants where my daughter who struggles with communication is deemed to high functioning to get 1cent of funding. I have had to pay out of my own pocket since she was a child.



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19 Oct 2020, 1:37 am

cyberdad wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
I don't give a sh*t on autism as a community if it comes to this because that doesn't helps any of us to improve with our problems. The people here aren't the same way different to NTs nor do they face the same problems once it comes to social interaction with other people.


I agree, but there are those on the higher end of the spectrum who want a community. Pretty sure this was a driving force behind Alex starting Wrong Planet in the first place. So there you go....you are still here so you do care :lol:

I don't want a community.

I want a place to exchange adaptive techniques, ideas and words to play around -- preferably with less pressumptious crap from anyone because of the knowledge AND the lack of knowledge of my diagnosis.

It just so happens a forum full of people from higher end of the spectrum -- usually their intent was; a less toxic social club, a safe space, or just for the hell of it -- had better chances of providing it. :twisted:


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cyberdad
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19 Oct 2020, 1:51 am

Edna3362 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
quite an extreme wrote:
I don't give a sh*t on autism as a community if it comes to this because that doesn't helps any of us to improve with our problems. The people here aren't the same way different to NTs nor do they face the same problems once it comes to social interaction with other people.


I agree, but there are those on the higher end of the spectrum who want a community. Pretty sure this was a driving force behind Alex starting Wrong Planet in the first place. So there you go....you are still here so you do care :lol:

I don't want a community.

I want a place to exchange adaptive techniques, ideas and words to play around -- preferably with less pressumptious crap from anyone because of the knowledge AND the lack of knowledge of my diagnosis.

It just so happens a forum full of people from higher end of the spectrum -- usually their intent was; a less toxic social club, a safe space, or just for the hell of it -- had better chances of providing it. :twisted:


You have been on WP since 2011 like me so you are part of an online community. Congratulations in case you didn't know.