Heterogeneity of ASD

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Whale_Tuune
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01 Oct 2020, 12:45 pm

So, my entire discussion: women making these "discriminations" to keep themselves safe, means nothing to you?

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Jiheisho
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01 Oct 2020, 12:48 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:

So, my entire discussion: women making these "discriminations" to keep themselves safe, means nothing to you?

Sorry, you lost me. Are you suggesting that autism is defined by perceived inappropriate comments to women?

Whale_Tuune
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01 Oct 2020, 1:14 pm

Autism is not defined by inappropriate comments towards women, but inappropriate behavior that accompanies Autism can absolutely be inherently impairing. This was an example.

Traits such as lack of understanding nonverbal cues and situational cues lead to problematic behavior. Thus, my point was that many of the impairing characteristics of Autistic social deficits are inherently impairing.

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Jiheisho
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01 Oct 2020, 1:23 pm

Your definition does not actually follow the DSM-5. Nor does it represent many autistic experiences. Autistic traits don't inherently impair a person--it did not impair me during my Master's program nor has always been an impairment for me professionally or socially. I also have a very rich marriage. I have also read other autistic's experience and the research shows that some autistics have a successful life. So, no, there is no inherent impairment.

That is not the same is saying someone always has ASD. ASD is not going to go away and will always impact the person. But that does not mean it will always be an impairment. And the DSM-5 recognizes this.

ASD has also given me some advantages, particularly in my field. So, yes, it can be impairing, but it can also result in advantages. Just like many different psychologies.

vermontsavant
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01 Oct 2020, 1:35 pm

Why don't so called autistics who claim no impairment,just call themselves then extreme introverts and leave "autism" as for those who suffer everyday.

If your so f@#$ successful then what do you need the autism title for.

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Jiheisho
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01 Oct 2020, 1:37 pm

vermontsavant wrote:

Did I claim no impairment? Did I claim success?

Exactly what gives you the authority to decide who is "worthy" and who is not?

But please, tell me about my life and why I don't qualify?

Whale_Tuune
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01 Oct 2020, 1:38 pm

Quote:

I also have a very rich marriage. I have also read other autistic's experience and the research shows that some autistics have a successful life. So, no, there is no inherent impairment.

The DSM-5 has indicated that difficulties processing nonverbal cues and situational cues are part of the ASD diagnosis. I have discussed ways that these impairments can manifest that are inherently impairing.

The ASD diagnosis is not inherently impairing for you and some others. That's great, but you and some others are not the entire ASD spectrum.

This has been my entire point... that even if some people don't see their Autistic traits as inherently impairing, there certainly are ways that Autistic traits can manifest in inherently impairing ways for others.

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Jiheisho
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01 Oct 2020, 1:53 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:

Quote:

I also have a very rich marriage. I have also read other autistic's experience and the research shows that some autistics have a successful life. So, no, there is no inherent impairment.

Where did I state that ASD was just for me? Where did I state that ASD can't significantly impact people and be severely debilitating? I don't mind the conversation, but the personal attacks are not helpful.

I recognize the breadth of the spectrum. And that is my fundamental argument--you need to encompass the experience of everyone. Not simply narrow the definition because the disorder and its presentation is complex. How are you going to make sure those that need help can find that help? The problem I see is that the community is trying to divide the issue into small pieces to suit their own needs. However, if people want to slice the community up, I will always argue for taking the community as a whole and to look for solution for all members of the community.

vermontsavant
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01 Oct 2020, 2:05 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

Did I claim no impairment? Did I claim success?

Exactly what gives you the authority to decide who is "worthy" and who is not?

But please, tell me about my life and why I don't qualify?

I don't know you sir.

I was referring to the abstract arguments you were alluding to,commonly made by many people.
The "autism is left handedness" argument popular in ND culture.

I don't know you from Adam.I never even quoted your post directly.

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Jiheisho
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01 Oct 2020, 2:08 pm

vermontsavant wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

Did I claim no impairment? Did I claim success?

Exactly what gives you the authority to decide who is "worthy" and who is not?

But please, tell me about my life and why I don't qualify?

That is not my argument.

No, you did not quote my post, you just followed it with insults.

vermontsavant
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01 Oct 2020, 2:10 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

vermontsavant wrote:

Did I claim no impairment? Did I claim success?

Exactly what gives you the authority to decide who is "worthy" and who is not?

But please, tell me about my life and why I don't qualify?

That is not my argument.

No, you did not quote my post, you just followed it with insults.

I made no reference to you.

I made reference to argument in common modern use you appeared to be using.

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carlos55
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01 Oct 2020, 3:24 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

Whale_Tuune wrote:

Let's do a thought experiment. Autistic man speaks to neurotypical woman. He invades her personal boundaries, asks overly personal questions, puts her at ill ease. She tells others that he's creepy and to stay away from him.

I love thought experiments.

Let look at it in a different way:

Black man speaks to white woman. He invades her personal boundaries, asks overly personal questions, puts her at ill ease. She tells others that he's creepy and to stay away from him.

See the problem?

Quote:

This is why I said heterogeneity is an issue. If you are happy with your Autism, that is fine. My point was that you can't generalize your experience to everyone else.

You cannot generalize an individual experience to a general one. That is actually the very problem with discrimination: you tell the woman that she is just being emotional or the Black person they are being racist. That is why you study a population. Every population has variance--Oprah Winfrey does not represent a common Black experience and Temple Grandin does not represent a common autistic experience. That work is really important to find the patterns and issues that face groups. And usually that analysis finds a number of issues depending on the variability in the population.

First, I never said I was representing ALL autistic people (nor did I get a diagnosis because I was "happy"--I promise I will not judge your autistic experience if you do not judge mine :heart:

). I was illustrating that discrimination is not an abstract concept in our community. But you are also imply that unless something helps everyone, then we should not address issues that some face. There is no one solution. This is why it is critical to study our population so we can see how discrimination affects us. The same is true for all group--the problems people face depend on your position in the community.

I can understand your desire for a one-size-fits-all solution. It is very attractive. Autism, like life, is complex. Unless we are going to embrace that complexity, there cannot be a solution.

Your idea of society accepting behaviours is unlikely to work as Whale_Tuune gave the example of the NT woman`s encounter with the “creepy guy” who she is not aware is autistic.

Unless the autistic man wears a big sign, saying “I’m autistic”, how would she know he`s not a potential rapist? even if he does have a big sign on him, how do you know he isn’t sexually interested in her, are all autistic people a-sexual? No

So, what your asking is for people including women to accept risks with strangers who may have harmful intent simply because there is a chance, they may be harmless autistics.

The simple answer is it will never happen because these type of intuitions in assessing behaviour are hardwired in the human & animal brain. You may as well expect wild untrained animals to be tame when they never will be.

You compare racism with being autistic. Racism is one way, in the mind of the the person who`s racist. With autism its two ways the autistic person may be discriminated against by a minority out of ignorance or misjudging behaviour as Whale_Tunne said, but your ignoring the many overwhelming NTs that reach out to us but we can’t relate and form normal bonds. Our condition isolates us.

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firemonkey
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01 Oct 2020, 3:51 pm

vermontsavant wrote:

Good point. I think some self stigmatise so much that denying any impairment is an automatic process.

Jiheisho
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01 Oct 2020, 3:56 pm

carlos55 wrote:

Your idea of society accepting behaviours is unlikely to work as Whale_Tuune gave the example of the NT woman`s encounter with the “creepy guy” who she is not aware is autistic.

I am not saying society will accept behaviors. What I am saying is the opposite. One problem with the scenario given is that the woman can project the same feeling onto the situation under many conditions. Someone that has a fear of Black men may come to the same conclusion that the man is "creepy." It is a circular argument that is presented and a strawman.

Quote:

Unless the autistic man wears a big sign, saying “I’m autistic”, how would she know he`s not a potential rapist? even if he does have a big sign on him, how do you know he isn’t sexually interested in her, are all autistic people a-sexual? No

So, what your asking is for people including women to accept risks with strangers who may have harmful intent simply because there is a chance, they may be harmless autistics.

I am not saying that at all. If you don't feel comfortable in a situation, then you should leave. But likewise, social misunderstanding is always the burden of the autistic person is not a great position either.

Quote:

Most autistic people try masking anyway

The simple answer is it will never happen because these type of intuitions in assessing behaviour are hardwired in the human & animal brain. You may as well expect wild untrained animals to be tame when they never will be.

You compare racism with being autistic. Racism is one way, in the mind of the the person who`s racist. With autism its two ways the autistic person may be discriminated against by a minority out of ignorance or misjudging behaviour as Whale_Tunne said, but your ignoring the many overwhelming NTs that reach out to us but we can’t relate and form normal bonds. Our condition isolates us.

NTs reach out to other NTs and cannot form bonds.

I am not ignoring anything. I am simply questioning the underlying assumptions, which I obviously don't agree with. I would rather an open approach to the issues surrounding the autistic community. Redefining who and who isn't autistic does not solve a problem--you just have a population that are no longer classified as autistic that were before. How does that help?

Autism is a complex problem. I would like to discuss an encompassing solution. What are the issues that need to be addressed? Different members of the community will need different solutions. There will be issues that can have much broader solutions, like the employment law in the ADA. And I reject the argument that complexity is an impediment simply because solutions have been found in this and other complex policy and social situations.

quite an extreme
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01 Oct 2020, 5:46 pm

Hey guys fact is that Whale_Tuune is totally right with her claim. May be that some people just want to claim that they are 'autistic' whatever that should be because it's a bunch of seveveral totally different conditions. But there are also people who want help with problems which are caused by their very specific conditions and they can't find this if the are just called 'autistic'.
Some people have selective mutism. Do you wan't to treat those like emotionless people who have alexithymia and don't even know that? Or like the overly empathical people who have problems with the emotions they feel that belong to all the other people around? And the latter ones the same as people who lack empathy at all and don't get the emotions of anybody and for this don't care emotional rules and cause others bad feelings?
Currently it seems that autism means nothing but just the resignation of a shrink who is unable to help people with specific problems that they face in social situations because of their mental incompatibility to common people. But for helping people you have to know their specific problems und for this to name them.
That's why Whale_Tuune is totally right whith her claim except for those who are totally happy with their label 'autism' and don't really want to improve nor any treatment that really helps them. Once we really want to help autistic people then we need to sort out the specific problems and look for the reasons and the most successful treatments of those.

@Whale_Tuune: I once made a poll here and found that only a third of the people here like to get rid of ASD. That means that only a third of the people suffers enough that they even would like to improve. :roll:
And even a lot less are looking for ways to improve because they were always been told that autism can't be cured. Found myself being a total exception for doing just this. But there are nearly always ways to improve. :wink:

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Whale_Tuune
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01 Oct 2020, 6:33 pm

Quote:

Redefining who and who isn't autistic does not solve a problem--you just have a population that are no longer classified as autistic that were before. How does that help?

What I had been getting at was breaking "Autistic" into more specific labels, or at least using a classification system which was designed to give more precise descriptions of someone's problems. So that we can have more tailored solutions.

Not simply leave a fraction of people without a diagnostic home.

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