‘Music’ film with nonverbal autistic lead, directed by Sia

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carlos55
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22 Nov 2020, 2:53 pm

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Dvdz wrote:
In the tweet that I linked to, Sia said she casted these 13+3, so they are actors. There are 41 cast members listed on [url="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7541720/fullcredits/"]IMDB[/url]. This means 39% (16/41) of the cast are neuroatypical, or neurodiverse as you say it.

You are welcome to believe that this is the bare minimum.


They don't get special social kudos for hiring people with disabilities anymore than a company does for hiring non-caucasians. Like I said, her waving that tidbit around like she deserves pats on the back, is akin to a pubic figure making racist remarks and then pointing out the people of color on their staff.


Let's get back to the actual issues that are causing upset in the ASD community:
1) Her responses to community members and how that has spurred similarly hateful responses from her supporters.
2) The way the main character is portrayed in the film and how that impacts the mainstream's perception of autism.


Your 2nd point justifies what i just said before:

2) The way the main character is portrayed in the film and how that impacts the mainstream's perception of autism.

You don’t like it because it depicts severe autism? you only want high functioning autistic characters who save the world by being a human calculator then breaking the secret terrorist code or have other mythical magical powers? Is that really a portrayal of autism?

Do advocates really think they can fool the public with this kind of deception?, autism is so common now that almost everyone has either been to school with, related to, lived near, worked with or known a parent of someone with autism.

Also imagine the outrage using someone severely disabled to act out a part of a severely disabled person with intellectual disability, (even if it was possible) who / how would consent be given?

Would it be fair viewers making judgements about them? I could imagine the producers being subjected to lawyers & social workers not to mention human rights activists & media criticism, it would end up more extreme than a Borat movie.



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22 Nov 2020, 3:02 pm

carlos55 wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Dvdz wrote:
In the tweet that I linked to, Sia said she casted these 13+3, so they are actors. There are 41 cast members listed on [url="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7541720/fullcredits/"]IMDB[/url]. This means 39% (16/41) of the cast are neuroatypical, or neurodiverse as you say it.

You are welcome to believe that this is the bare minimum.


They don't get special social kudos for hiring people with disabilities anymore than a company does for hiring non-caucasians. Like I said, her waving that tidbit around like she deserves pats on the back, is akin to a pubic figure making racist remarks and then pointing out the people of color on their staff.


Let's get back to the actual issues that are causing upset in the ASD community:
1) Her responses to community members and how that has spurred similarly hateful responses from her supporters.
2) The way the main character is portrayed in the film and how that impacts the mainstream's perception of autism.


Your 2nd point justifies what i just said before:

2) The way the main character is portrayed in the film and how that impacts the mainstream's perception of autism.

You don’t like it because it depicts severe autism? you only want high functioning autistic characters who save the world by being a human calculator then breaking the secret terrorist code or have other mythical magical powers? Is that really a portrayal of autism?

Do advocates really think they can fool the public with this kind of deception?, autism is so common now that almost everyone has either been to school with, lived near, worked with or known a parent of someone with autism.


No.

That was never my point. You have misunderstood. I am asking others to give their thoughts on the portrayal.

I'm not sure what have you the impression that I favored "high functioning" austistics. Perhaps you have made erroneous assumptions about my functioning level? If so, I would ask that you refrain from such baseless acts.

The actress's portrayal has nothing to do with functioning labels.



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22 Nov 2020, 3:29 pm

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Dvdz wrote:
In the tweet that I linked to, Sia said she casted these 13+3, so they are actors. There are 41 cast members listed on [url="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7541720/fullcredits/"]IMDB[/url]. This means 39% (16/41) of the cast are neuroatypical, or neurodiverse as you say it.

You are welcome to believe that this is the bare minimum.


They don't get special social kudos for hiring people with disabilities anymore than a company does for hiring non-caucasians. Like I said, her waving that tidbit around like she deserves pats on the back, is akin to a pubic figure making racist remarks and then pointing out the people of color on their staff.


Let's get back to the actual issues that are causing upset in the ASD community:
1) Her responses to community members and how that has spurred similarly hateful responses from her supporters.
2) The way the main character is portrayed in the film and how that impacts the mainstream's perception of autism.


Your 2nd point justifies what i just said before:

2) The way the main character is portrayed in the film and how that impacts the mainstream's perception of autism.

You don’t like it because it depicts severe autism? you only want high functioning autistic characters who save the world by being a human calculator then breaking the secret terrorist code or have other mythical magical powers? Is that really a portrayal of autism?

Do advocates really think they can fool the public with this kind of deception?, autism is so common now that almost everyone has either been to school with, lived near, worked with or known a parent of someone with autism.


No.

That was never my point. You have misunderstood. I am asking others to give their thoughts on the portrayal.

I'm not sure what have you the impression that I favored "high functioning" austistics. Perhaps you have made erroneous assumptions about my functioning level? If so, I would ask that you refrain from such baseless acts.

The actress's portrayal has nothing to do with functioning labels.


Ok I apologise AuroraBorealisGazer if I came across directed to you, if you don’t hold such views and was asking the general question, however it is a valid criticism of many advocates who I suspect do indeed hold such views.



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22 Nov 2020, 5:12 pm

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
They don't get special social kudos for hiring people with disabilities anymore than a company does for hiring non-caucasians. Like I said, her waving that tidbit around like she deserves pats on the back, is akin to a pubic figure making racist remarks and then pointing out the people of color on their staff.


Let's get back to the actual issues that are causing upset in the ASD community:
1) Her responses to community members and how that has spurred similarly hateful responses from her supporters.
2) The way the main character is portrayed in the film and how that impacts the mainstream's perception of autism..


I'm not sure what exactly you wanted her to do. What should she have done? What does she need to do in order to prove that she did the best she could?

Now, I watched the trailer, and I had the same reaction as many others here. The main character's performance felt inauthentic, it felt like mocking.

But I wondered how I came to that impression. I'm not non-verbal and I don't know any non-verbal autistics. So my reaction was based only on what I've seen on the internet. Whether you are non-verbal or know any non-verbal people, it is impossible to know for sure if there is an autistic person out there who behaves exactly like the main character in the trailer because if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person.

Some people have an issue with the story of the film, which is apparently about guardianship. But why is this a problem? Surely there are some autistic people out there for whom guardianship is the best option.

Should the experiences and stories of some autistic people not be shown because it doesn't conform to the majority?



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22 Nov 2020, 7:12 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Ok I apologise AuroraBorealisGazer if I came across directed to you, if you don’t hold such views and was asking the general question, however it is a valid criticism of many advocates who I suspect do indeed hold such views.


Thank you Carlos. I wish I was more familiar with the many advocates out there. Perhaps what you said is the case for some. Maybe it's human nature to want to see characters that the individual can relate to, so if these people present in a certain way they may favor the types you described.

I would like for all of the many different presentations of ASD to be represented throughout shows/films whenever possible. Though maybe that's still selfish of me because I can relate to most people on spectrum in some way. I've heard others on here say that that's not universal, so I don't know. But mostly I just don't want the allistics to use us as inspiration porn to make themselves feel good.



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22 Nov 2020, 7:27 pm

Dvdz wrote:

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted her to do. What should she have done? What does she need to do in order to prove that she did the best she could?


She could have not lashed out at the autistics that expressed discomfort with the film. Her responses showed disregard for their concerns.

Dvdz wrote:
Now, I watched the trailer, and I had the same reaction as many others here. The main character's performance felt inauthentic, it felt like mocking.

But I wondered how I came to that impression. I'm not non-verbal and I don't know any non-verbal autistics. So my reaction was based only on what I've seen on the internet. Whether you are non-verbal or know any non-verbal people, it is impossible to know for sure if there is an autistic person out there who behaves exactly like the main character in the trailer because if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person.


Of course we are all different. Consider that it may have not felt authentic because it's hard to fake authenticity, especially when she based her act on meltdown videos.I've also read that it's incredibly hard for neurotypicals to fake issues with eye contact. It may be subtle things like this that give it away.


Dvdz wrote:
Some people have an issue with the story of the film, which is apparently about guardianship. But why is this a problem? Surely there are some autistic people out there for whom guardianship is the best option.

Should the experiences and stories of some autistic people not be shown because it doesn't conform to the majority?


No all stories should be shown (in my opinion). I have read that people took issue with it actually being all about the guardian, and not the autist. Both are valid perspectives, but it did make me realize that I don't recall ever seeing the latter and it would be really nice to see.



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22 Nov 2020, 8:51 pm

Maddie Ziegler: Mogul in Training - Marie Claire

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To prepare, she studied documentaries about autism and watched YouTube videos by parents who recorded their child’s episodes. “What I realized during this film is that everyone on the spectrum is different,” she says. “Everyone is unique and beautiful in their own way.”

I loath parents filming their children at low moments. Such a horrific invasion of privacy. That Zeigler looked at videos could have definitely given her a warped view of autism. Without knowing which documentaries she watched I can't make a final judgment. Hopefully, it was not "I Am Autism".


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22 Nov 2020, 11:00 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Maddie Ziegler: Mogul in Training - Marie Claire
Quote:
To prepare, she studied documentaries about autism and watched YouTube videos by parents who recorded their child’s episodes. “What I realized during this film is that everyone on the spectrum is different,” she says. “Everyone is unique and beautiful in their own way.”

I loath parents filming their children at low moments. Such a horrific invasion of privacy. That Zeigler looked at videos could have definitely given her a warped view of autism. Without knowing which documentaries she watched I can't make a final judgment. Hopefully, it was not "I Am Autism".


Thank you for the article. It was the verification I was hoping to find about the YouTube videos comment.

I agree, the specific documentaries she watched are important. Some could be helpful, while others could not.



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22 Nov 2020, 11:16 pm

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
She could have not lashed out at the autistics that expressed discomfort with the film. Her responses showed disregard for their concerns.


From what I saw (https://twitter.com/Sia/with_replies and hopefully it's arranged chronologically for you), she only started using "f**k" after people started to make up things about the project and had someone say to her "youre an ignorant twat and a disgrace to the disabled community get in the bin". Before that, she was trying to allay people's concerns. I don't see how the earlier responses are her lashing out and showing disregard.

Should she have flared up? Probably not. But I can certainly understand her frustration and she is just human after all.

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Of course we are all different. Consider that it may have not felt authentic because it's hard to fake authenticity, especially when she based her act on meltdown videos.I've also read that it's incredibly hard for neurotypicals to fake issues with eye contact. It may be subtle things like this that give it away.


My point about authenticity was that I was only basing it on my own personal experience. Whether you think it's fake or not also depends on your own personal experience. But just because we think it is inauthentic doesn't mean it actually is. It just could have been based on something outside our personal experience.

ASPartOfMe linked to an article where Ziegler.

Quote:
To prepare, she studied documentaries about autism and watched YouTube videos by parents who recorded their child’s episodes. “What I realized during this film is that everyone on the spectrum is different,” she says. “Everyone is unique and beautiful in their own way.”


Between these two sentences could be a whole other story about what else she did/learned. Prepare implies she did those things before filming. "What I realized during this film" implies she did/learned other things during filming, maybe from those 2 autistic consultants Sia had with her.

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
No all stories should be shown (in my opinion). I have read that people took issue with it actually being all about the guardian, and not the autist. Both are valid perspectives, but it did make me realize that I don't recall ever seeing the latter and it would be really nice to see.


Not sure where you read that from since not a lot of people have actually seen the film. However, the title of the film is Music, which is the name of the autistic character in the film, so the film might actually be about her instead of the guardian, but most probably some mixture of both.



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23 Nov 2020, 12:07 am

^ It's very human for someone to have a strong emotional reaction to criticism. That said, in my opinion, people of her status who have chosen the celebrity life have a responsibility to show restraint. Particularly when they are speaking with people who they are using for their content. Compared to her we are nobodies. She has the power: a voice that millions will listen to, and incredible wealth. We are just individuals, who likely possess ~1% of her power. It can be frustrating to be an individual confronted with mainstream productions that can do damage, but our voices are too small to make a difference. I don't agree with how some individuals who were angry lashed out, but I think someone with her power and vast support network should be cognizant of the damage their words can do.

Regarding authenticity: when it comes to performances, actual authenticity is not possible. They would have to be doing improv and not playing a part. Even an autist couldn't act in a role with genuine authenticity because they are being directed to do certain things and following a script. So when it comes to an actors portrayal of a character, authenticity is a perceived concept by the viewer. This means it's fairly subjective.



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23 Nov 2020, 10:20 am

No doubt many Hollywood stars are a bit arrogant and full of themselves whether provoked or not.

Just trying to imagine forcing someone with severe autism to act out the part of someone with severe autism like a performing seal at the circus.

Someone severely disabled dealing with all sorts of issues having to remember what to do at what time, dealing with the stress of the cameras and the long hours of shooting film.

Reminds me of the abuses of the Victorian freak shows.

Of course someone higher functioning could have potentially done it but given the gulf between Aspergers and severe autism is it much different from a neurotypical?

Just shows how clueless and detached from reality these people are.



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24 Nov 2020, 9:40 am

After watching the trailer again, what seems to be a clip from the movie, and some of Ziegler's previous videos with Sia, I have actually come to a different conclusion.

Ziegler's acting in the trailer is actually how she has always acted in Sia's music videos.







And in what might be an actual clip from the movie:



And when I watched the trailer again while keeping in mind what her normal acting looks like, I realised that Music was actually a funny/playful character.



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25 Nov 2020, 3:43 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I loath parents filming their children at low moments. Such a horrific invasion of privacy. That Zeigler looked at videos could have definitely given her a warped view of autism. Without knowing which documentaries she watched I can't make a final judgment. Hopefully, it was not "I Am Autism".


To be fair most first-time parents of autistic kids have no idea what to do and often face having to do things like film their kids and share to to get help.

My biggest gripe are with professionals who claim to be experts on autism and bleed us dry while giving cookie cutter advice. One of them made me purchase a camera to film my daughter having a meltdown. When I shared the film he refused to give advice and ghosted me (after charging 100s of dollars) saying I should see somebody else. I suspect he thought I did something unethical in filming (I had no idea).

I understand why parents do this type of thing and not its always to grab attention.



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25 Nov 2020, 3:45 am

carlos55 wrote:
No doubt many Hollywood stars are a bit arrogant and full of themselves whether provoked or not.

Just trying to imagine forcing someone with severe autism to act out the part of someone with severe autism like a performing seal at the circus.

Someone severely disabled dealing with all sorts of issues having to remember what to do at what time, dealing with the stress of the cameras and the long hours of shooting film.

Reminds me of the abuses of the Victorian freak shows.

Of course someone higher functioning could have potentially done it but given the gulf between Aspergers and severe autism is it much different from a neurotypical?

Just shows how clueless and detached from reality these people are.


How did you feel about NT child actress and Clare Danes portraying a severely autistic Temple Grandin?



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25 Nov 2020, 4:16 am

I had the other day uploaded a video on my YouTube channel to add in my 2cents explaining my side of the situation when Sia had published this Tweet that had caused offence to the world wide autistic community.



I did ask if Sia should apologise for all offences that she had caused towards the world wide autistic community, I honestly think probably won't. It's like after now that I had published this video, I've got over it after sleeping on it and it's probably be the only movie Sia will release.

There's bound to be more films relating to autism to be yet made in the future, these days it's just demand for autistic actors and actresses to take on the large autistic role. It would be like having an autistic actor Dan Ankroyd to take on the role as Raymond Babbitt in the 1988 film "Rainman" instead of Dustin Hoffman.

I AM SO OVER THIS CONTROVERSY FOR "MUSIC" NOW.


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25 Nov 2020, 5:21 am

Quote:
It's very human for someone to have a strong emotional reaction to criticism


Most people also feel bullied and attacked so they have a strong emotional reaction.


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