Page 19 of 20 [ 315 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20  Next

SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,533
Location: China

04 Jun 2022, 1:22 pm

^I think you don't understand what an Occam razor is.
In natural science research, when other models have data support, it is absurd to claim to use "Occam razor" to erase them.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.263.5147.641

Quote:
Verification and validation of numerical models of natural systems is impossible. This is because natural systems are never closed and because model results are always nonunique. Models can be confirmed by the demonstration of agreement between observation and prediction, but confirmation is inherently partial. Complete confirmation is logically precluded by the fallacy of affirming the consequent and by incomplete access to natural phenomena. Models can only be evaluated in relative terms, and their predictive value is always open to question. The primary value of models is heuristic.

https://nesslabs.com/occams-razor
Quote:
First, there is actually no empirical evidence that the world is simple, and therefore simpler solutions are more likely to be correct. In fact, many scientific theories have become more complex over time, as researchers would uncover new data.

For example, Ernst Mach—who advocated for a version of Occam’s razor, which he called the Principle of Economy—claimed that molecules didn’t exist because they were too small to detect directly. Einstein later published a paper on brownian motion, the random motion of particles suspended in a fluid—a more complex theory—which confirmed the reality of molecules. (Mach also once said “I don’t believe that atoms exist!” to which Einstein replied with a demonstration that marked a turning point in the acceptance of atomic theory—these two must have been great friends)

In The Meaning of Relativity, Einstein stated: “In my opinion the theory here is the logically simplest relativistic field theory that is at all possible. But this does not mean that Nature might not obey a more complex theory.”



In addition, tomboys or other individuals who do not conform to gender stereotypes are not completely consistent with trans.

Gender dysphoria is actually the anti stigmatization of gender identity disorder. In other words, Trans or Nb.
Its existence is as reliable as any other diagnosis in the DSM5 manual.


_________________
With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 04 Jun 2022, 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,387
Location: Poland

04 Jun 2022, 1:32 pm

Occam razor:
If a more complicated way and a less complicated way lead to exactly the same results, assume the less complicated one correct.

The world is not simple but complicating models has to improve the results - otherwise it's only unnecessary noise.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,533
Location: China

04 Jun 2022, 1:38 pm

^Yes, the question is what is "exactly the same results".
When there is obvious evidence that there may be other correlations, it cannot be claimed that the new model needs to be ignored because a model is simpler. (and this model can't even get data support)

I actually talk with him in two threads.
https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=406385&p=9053727#p9053727


_________________
With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,387
Location: Poland

04 Jun 2022, 1:45 pm

Ok, I'm speaking from the perspective of my speciality - physics. Here, results are rigorously measurable.

I find the argument of "Occam's razor" in this discussion used wrongly - gender dysphoria is observed in non-autistic people too, so claiming autism as a reason would require a separate explanation of gender dysphoria in NTs.
That would be cut out by Occam's razor.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,533
Location: China

04 Jun 2022, 1:54 pm

^Wonderful supplement.

I entered the biology contest in high school. Nearly half of my college major courses are biology.
I hope that biology is as full of concise logic as physics or math, but unfortunately, nature does not obey the laws we impose on it.


_________________
With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,317
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

fredpat
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jun 2022
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 25
Location: California

04 Jun 2022, 4:51 pm

Watch this video of this transgender kid with autism to understand the simplicity of the arguments.

Gender & Autism | with Ash and Raphael



Occam razor:
- Complicated identity ideology belief model that science or medicine cannot test or proof.
versus
- Common sense. Based on simple logic.

Which idea wins? Yes, the simple one.

There is no claim of autism as a reason of transgender, no. The reason are some traits that are even present also in neuro-typical people that are causing the transgender ideology adoption. Social isolation, lack social understanding, gender roles avoidance, over-sensory, social anxiety, depression, mental fixation, etc. Some of these trait makes people vulnerable to adopt the transgender ideology during early puberty.



Last edited by fredpat on 04 Jun 2022, 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,533
Location: China

04 Jun 2022, 5:02 pm

^You are making the argument I had made in this thread.

And my other argument is also based on common sense or simple logic. At least they are for me.
I have no medical training other than psychiatry. I think the concepts I use are common knowledge of biology in high school.

Multiple factors together led to a significantly higher incidence of LGBTQ in autism than in NT. Each factor contributes to the difference of statistical results.
I don't think false dilemma is very clever.


_________________
With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,317
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

04 Jun 2022, 6:16 pm

fredpat wrote:
The reason are some traits that are even present also in neuro-typical people that are causing the transgender ideology adoption.

Hmmm.


_________________
My WP story


SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,533
Location: China

04 Jun 2022, 7:22 pm

MaxE wrote:
fredpat wrote:
The reason are some traits that are even present also in neuro-typical people that are causing the transgender ideology adoption.

Hmmm.

This time it is not a matter of personal opinion.
https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=406385&p=9053882#p9053175
fredpat wrote:
My daughter identified as transgender since 13 years old. She is autistic, high functional / aspergers.

I began to think about the experience of a child.


_________________
With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,387
Location: Poland

05 Jun 2022, 2:10 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
MaxE wrote:
fredpat wrote:
The reason are some traits that are even present also in neuro-typical people that are causing the transgender ideology adoption.
Hmmm.
This time it is not a matter of personal opinion.
https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=406385&p=9053882#p9053175
It's a matter of using the word "ideology" in this context. Interpreting LGBT as an "ideology" that abducts young people is a narrative of religious right here.
SkinnedWolf wrote:
fredpat wrote:
My daughter identified as transgender since 13 years old. She is autistic, high functional / aspergers.
I began to think about the experience of a child.
Me too.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 38
Posts: 5,406
Location: canada

07 Jun 2022, 9:50 pm

One thing I noticed about trans people, is that they have single parents, or brought up with a single parent, or a few that I have known.

So I am wondering, could that be a contributing factor possibly, as to what can cause a person to be trans, or no?



rowan_nichol
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jul 2016
Age: 58
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 736
Location: England

08 Jun 2022, 12:42 pm

Depends on ones sample size. Ones own circle of acquaintances is rarely large enough or representative of the whole population to give conclusions which can be generalized beyond that subset of society.

I also tread carefully around, because on far too many occasions people bringyup a family on their own seem to get chosen as a convenient target to blame for stuff.

Knowing how hard my grandmother worked to raise my mother on her own in late 1940s early 1950s raises the risk that someone expressing hostile attitudes to someone raising s family alone quickly finds any Friendship with me sorely strained.



HeroOfHyrule
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 May 2020
Age: 21
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 8,914
Location: Pacific Northwest

08 Jun 2022, 8:42 pm

ironpony wrote:
One thing I noticed about trans people, is that they have single parents, or brought up with a single parent, or a few that I have known.

So I am wondering, could that be a contributing factor possibly, as to what can cause a person to be trans, or no?

I don't have single parents and most trans people I know don't have single parents??? How the hell would that make someone trans?

Cis people reach so much for ways to somehow make trans identities a symptom of another problem and it's GD bizarre.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 38
Posts: 5,406
Location: canada

08 Jun 2022, 11:18 pm

HeroOfHyrule wrote:
ironpony wrote:
One thing I noticed about trans people, is that they have single parents, or brought up with a single parent, or a few that I have known.

So I am wondering, could that be a contributing factor possibly, as to what can cause a person to be trans, or no?

I don't have single parents and most trans people I know don't have single parents??? How the hell would that make someone trans?

Cis people reach so much for ways to somehow make trans identities a symptom of another problem and it's GD bizarre.


It seemed to be something I noticed in trans people I came across, so I was drawing a connection by something they had in common. I also though that because of this, maybe a single parent can make a child trans in the sense that they are getting the feel of just one gender from one parent, and thought maybe that's could have been what drove it as a result. But it was just a theory I had, what do I know. That's why I asked :).



SkinnedWolf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Mar 2022
Age: 23
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 1,533
Location: China

08 Jun 2022, 11:34 pm

ironpony wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
ironpony wrote:
One thing I noticed about trans people, is that they have single parents, or brought up with a single parent, or a few that I have known.

So I am wondering, could that be a contributing factor possibly, as to what can cause a person to be trans, or no?

I don't have single parents and most trans people I know don't have single parents??? How the hell would that make someone trans?

Cis people reach so much for ways to somehow make trans identities a symptom of another problem and it's GD bizarre.


It seemed to be something I noticed in trans people I came across, so I was drawing a connection by something they had in common. I also though that because of this, maybe a single parent can make a child trans in the sense that they are getting the feel of just one gender from one parent, and thought maybe that's could have been what drove it as a result. But it was just a theory I had, what do I know. That's why I asked :).

The statistical correlation between single parent families and trans may or may not be true. (I personally didn't find any available studies)

Even if they are related, that does not mean there is a causal relationship.
In addition to the reasons you think, other possible reasons:
A. The social pressure brought by atypical children makes it more easier for parents to divorce.
B. One of the guardians does not accept Trans/atypical sex expression.
C. The genetic factors that cause Trans also make it more difficult to maintain marriage or easy to make children born out of wedlock.
D. Stressed parents are more likely to have more mutations in meiosis or to provide an atypical uterine environment.
...


_________________
With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.