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AspieDave
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27 Jan 2008, 11:21 pm

LMAO

Please... settle a bet for me. Are you French??

It's exactly as rational as someone asking me if I want a cure for something that's not a disease.


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TheFace
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27 Jan 2008, 11:26 pm

Image


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AspieDave
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27 Jan 2008, 11:29 pm

If you sell that sign I'm checking out your store....

:hail:


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NewportBeachDude
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27 Jan 2008, 11:30 pm

AspieDave wrote:
Hmmmm NewportBeachDude.... Call us the "silent majority", of the spectrum anyway... the hidden Aspie's in the world. I think that's who you're referring to, we're the ones who mostly aren't diagnosed, in most cases never heard of Asperger's except some bit on the news you ignored, and who have made accommodations with the NT world. :twisted:



Huh? Now that I read the post again, I have no idea of what you're talking about. What do you mean you're not diagnosed? A hidden Aspie? Are you saying that you have Aspergers, but have not been medically diagnosed, yet you chose to call yourself Aspie? Well, in my life we don't have to say our family is a silent minority of Autism. We are diagnosed. We do not have hidden Autism nor pretend Autism. :roll:

Sorry, but I'm surrounded by Asperger and Autism so the news bit doesn't fly. Again, peace be with you.

Elain_i, I do feel you have the right to speak up and not be hushed up. Your viewpoint is just as relevant as those who oppose you. It's important that people understand how vast the spectrum is and that no one party can speak for everyone, yet it doesn't make the minority who want a cure wrong for it.



ToadOfSteel
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27 Jan 2008, 11:35 pm

I'm going to let Magneto speak for me...



AspieDave
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27 Jan 2008, 11:49 pm

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I have been diagnosed, as has my wife and both sons. I know a dozen or more outside of my family who meet the criteria, but have never been diagnosed. I know at least 8 in my immediate "blood" family who have not been diagnosed.

Most people with Asperger's are not recognized or formally diagnosed. Most will never be. If they've gotten through 50+ years of life without a diagnosis, they most likely never will seek one. People seem to assume that all autistics suffer. Some do. Most do in some way. I did, but not physically. I don't have the sensory issues some do. I did suffer emotionally and psychologically when I was younger. I'm past that. What you will find, if you get to know an older Aspie around where you live, someone you get to know as a person, not a series of words on a screen, is that we don't consider ourselves broken. Not the ones who don't suffer the physical and sensory hurts others do. Mostly, we LIKE the way we are. We're professionals doing something we love, or we're a skilled tradesman, etc. Some are writers, artists, musicians. I would not change the way I am for anything. Except for the irritable bowel, but as I tell people "you know that phrase, I hate that guy's guts... well my guts hate me...". If it ever turns out having to deal with 9 miscarriages was related to the spectrum, then that I would get rid of too... I realize it's a foreign viewpoint to you, but to so many people I know personally, here where I live, we view the Autism Speaks program and site about the same way black friends of mine viewed the Klan. It's emotional. This is not abstract to us. This is our LIVES, and our children. I tried, I honestly did, I went there and checked the site and read the forums, and it made me physically nauseous.


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elan_i
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27 Jan 2008, 11:53 pm

NewportBeachDude wrote:
Elan_i, I do feel you have the right to speak up and not be hushed up. Your viewpoint is just as relevant as those who oppose you. ..


It's been interesting reading the views of others here, and surprising, and important. Views like the recent one's show, to me, the lengths some will go, including rather weak, irrational arguments, which they think are conclusive and of the greatest reason. The measure is always about the strength of arguments ... their detail, the ideas, the considerations, their clarity, and completeness. Just blurting out careless analogies that are only psychologically motivated isn't constructive.

As to who can tell the difference. Well people are different - some professors, for example, are better than others ... this is why the political science department at U-Chicago is incomparably better in all ways compared to the department at Ohio State University. The professors are of the highest quality. How? Their ideas, their written and verbal abilities to express them, etc.

Anyway, over time seeing various posts at wrongplanet I'm inclined to think that the opinions of many with Aspergers and autism are too biased to be considered rational considerations. It also seems that this website is biased, having as it's main purpose to be for people who view themselves to be on the Wrong Planet, and, that the planet they are on is not the best planet. This only creates a further divide between Asperger and NT people.



elan_i
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27 Jan 2008, 11:58 pm

AspieDave wrote:
What you will find, if you get to know an older Aspie around where you live is that we don't consider ourselves broken. Mostly, we LIKE the way we are. We're professionals doing something we love, or we're a skilled tradesman, etc. Some are writers, artists, musicians. I would not change the way I am for anything.


You like 'Anbund' and others have a persistent need to speak for 'We', which is psychological, and inappropriate.

Also, in my original post I outlined why, it seems, that you and others feel this way, and other factors that seem to be involved. And your reply? To ignore, and then simply re-state the same-old-story.

After 7 pages and 102 posts, no one has addressed or objected to my original post. You simply provide your same-old-same-old opinion, which is what I address in my original post.



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28 Jan 2008, 12:07 am

elan_i wrote:
And then many with autism write books and take part in this money seeking, to make money off of the autism community.

I like books. I own a few books by and about people with Asperger. I plan to acquire a few more. I've heard good things about Liane Holliday Willey. I have not heard that she is some kind of ruthless profiteer. There must be quite a few published authors, or aspiring authors, with Asperger. Must we assume that they are all out to amass a personal fortune by fleecing the "autism community", whatever one conceives that to be?

Caveat emptor and all that. :)



AspieDave
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28 Jan 2008, 12:07 am

elan_i wrote:

Quote:
You like 'Anbund' and others have a persistent need to speak for 'We', which is psychological, and inappropriate.


No, in my case (or I should say Our) it was the Royal "We". We are the Lost Dauphin. :joker:


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KristaMeth
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28 Jan 2008, 12:47 am

One thing I am tired of:

People who want to talk about controversial subjects, being called trolls. People who try their best to write a disclaimer stating that they don't want trouble and just want information, or to talk... having the word troll thrown at them like it should shut them up or something. Ridiculous and over used, people. Come on now.


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SleepyDragon
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28 Jan 2008, 1:27 am

I'll say it again. Someone seeking information in good faith, who genuinely wishes to engage in a dialogue, does not use phrases such as "lack of courage, and cowardice" and "depraved indifference".



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28 Jan 2008, 2:48 am

TrueDave, the only difference between this hypothetical cure and a change like puberty, is the fact that it's optional.

I am fully in support of a cure for those on the lower end of the spectrum. I don't really care about a cure for AS. If we have adapted enough so that we're meeting the standards of soceity, we're fine. If we want a cure, we ought to be able to get a cure, and if we don't want one, we say no. To re-iterate a previous point, to prove that the hypothetical cure is safe, I would take the cure, and then we'd certainly find out.

I worked hard, made a comittment, struggled to become as able as any other person. I made sacrifices, forced myself to endure, and never gave up. I earn what I get, be it the applause of an audience, acceptance from my peers, or a simple "thank you" from a stranger I did something kind for. Why? Because I had to prove to myself that it's me, not AS, that makes me who I am. And so, I did.

There is no one correct way to think or act, you're right. But there's a general guideline to follow, and certain things which are taboo. Everyone makes concessions to others regarding things like their skin colour, sexual orientation, religion, or social standing. Individualism is a desire to be different, but is normal not different? If everyone is different, who's normal? Normal isn't some kind of bad thing, and being different doesn't always have to be your main goal. It's you who's running your life, and you don't have to be different or normal if you don't want to.

Oh, your comment on NTs trying to be different seems a little sweeping...

2ukenkerl, you glossed over my points by picking issue with a few sentences to dodge the questions you don't want to answer. Are you different now than you were as a child? Yes. Are you different now than you were before puberty? Yes. Why do you believe that the cure is going to kill you, eat some people, and bite the head off of the Statue of Liberty? Okay, to be serious, why are you so solid in your belief that the hypothetical cure is going to kill those who imbibe it? I'm awaiting your response.

So, flight doesn't involve those concepts? The concept of gravity, the use of wings to glide, the engines, how it moves, the momentum it achieves, and every other aspect of the way your average modern airplane actually flies? Hm. I'll use trains from now on, then.

If that's what you really believe, then what's the point of splitting hairs? "Oh, I'm for curing certain parts of autism, but not autism, because autism has good to it." The most severe cases of Autism generally aren't Aspergers Syndrome with a dozen cormorbids. Autism is not a set of Operation where you can pull out the stuff you don't want and leave the stuff you do want.

Hypothetical it is, but tell me; If the idea of a cure is kept back, and never becomes anything more than an idea, then is that not in effect preventing a cure from being started?

Inventor, history's very open to interpretation.

An attack on those who hate the curebies? The people who pick fights with "Curebies" are mouthy Aspies like yourself who can't get enough of the anger out of their system that they may think there's soemthing wrong with you. I've been on the anti-cure side of the fence, and it's not pretty. I've been that mouthy Aspie. I should've looked closer before spitting out the bile I spat. "Curebies" want what's best for their children. They want them kept out of institutions, out of group homes, out of constant care. They want their kids to be able to be as happy and carefree as a child should be, and they don't want their child to lose out on everything life has to offer. Compassion for their flesh and blood, empathy for other parents, sympathy for autistics. Why the trouble between the pro-cure side and the anti-cure side? Miscommunication. Autism means many different things depending on who you ask. Autism, the severe, debilitating kind. Autism, the "joys of Autism" less severe kind. Autism, the Aspie's other title. So on, and so on. Curing severely debilitating Autism, turned into curing Autism, turned into curing Aspergers, turned into Open Season on emotional parents.

Of course, ignore the struggles that some of those on the spectrum have with severe autism, ignore that the cure is being sought for people with incredible difficulties and challenges. They said autism, so they must mean you, Inventor, with your diagnosis of "Unsure."

If you seek equal rights, you're doing it wrong. Go find someone who's really fought for their rights, like someone who knows real discrimination. You might want to look into the equal rights movement in the states for ideas, because flame wars aren't going to give you the things you want.

You have the right to say, "I do not want a cure." And we must respect that. But you do not have the right to say "Do not make a cure." By doing that, you are stepping on the rights of those who want a cure, and to deny a cure for those who want a cure is to make them secondclass citizens to you, bringing about the inequality that you are so keen to prevent.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of willing subjects. I don't know about you, but my childhood wasn't all cookies and cooties. "Their" objection? It's not a solidarity. Not everyone with AS is celebrating the joys of autism and declaring war on Autism Speaks. I deny no one the right to choose whether or not they want to be cured, but I do challenge their right to deny others the right to choose. If you get your way, those who do want a cure are out of luck, hope, and for a few I've met, the will to live. Those who don't are happy. If the cure is made, then those who wat a cure get their cure. Those who don't want a cure aren't cured, and they're left to celebrate their autism the way they want to.

My major is going to be in Creative Writing, actually. I've got a feeling that's going to come back around to bite me, but it looks like my name is well-suited for it.

Inventor wrote:
Yea Right! The Curbie Profit.

Still trolling and triple posting, do you troll yourself often?

I would give your fake autism writing style a D-.

In all your rambling bull you have not shown me any evidence that you are autistic.

How are things going with CAN and Autism Speaks? It seems you get paid by the word.


http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums-profi ... -9403.html
*cough*

[sarcasm]Holy moly, they pay by the word!? SIGN ME UP![/sarcasm]

KristaMeth, I second that. Seriously, it's a big snow job. They call troll on it just so that the discussion grinds to a halt, is either locked or sinks from the boards, or gets someone banned. I'm amazed that the discussion has lasted so long, and that the points I've made haven't been disputed, just a handful of personal insults and some patronization.

Sleepy, you're picking apart his statements, using them out of context, and trying to have the focus shifted off of the discussion. The point remains, why do so many react so strongly to the concept of a cure?

And my point is, that Aspies are getting all in a huff because they're covered by the blanket term or Autism, and can't tell the difference between Asperger's and severe Autism. I've been told by a fanatical anti-cure Aspie that those considered low functioning make the spectrum look bad. I think it's arrogant idiots like him who do that.


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SleepyDragon
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28 Jan 2008, 4:52 am

I'm a nitpicker, what can I say. :D

Joeker wrote:
The point remains, why do so many react so strongly to the concept of a cure?

If I give my opinion about why people react as they do, won't that be taken as a blanket statement on behalf of others that I am not entitled to make?

Joeker wrote:
I've been told by a fanatical anti-cure Aspie that those considered low functioning make the spectrum look bad.

"Fanatical" is such an ugly word, although I do agree with you that that was a rude thing to say.

Joeker wrote:
My major is going to be in Creative Writing, actually.

In complete sincerity, I wish you all success in your chosen field.



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28 Jan 2008, 5:23 am

Joeker wrote:
I've been told by a fanatical anti-cure Aspie that those considered low functioning make the spectrum look bad. I think it's arrogant idiots like him who do that.


Was this person talking about everyone on the low end, or just certain ones? Every part of the Spectrum (LFA, HFA, Aspie, PDD-NOS) has it's bad apples. And speaking for myself I wouldn't be calling anyone a "fanatic" - well said about that, Dragon, but I'd wait for an answer to my question about the rudeness. If it was everyone then I agree, but if it wasn't then we'd need to go deeper into the specific issue. Bad apples sometimes deserve to be treated rudely IMO.

NewportBeachDude, there is nothing wrong with believing one is on the Spectrum. It only becomes a problem if those very people try to speak for those who HAVE a formal DX, or worse try to make medical or legal claims based on their opinion and kick up a stink when it doesn't work. That's actually why - in my submission to the Autism State Plan here in Victoria - I made it plain that whatever comes of it should only be available to those with a formal DX.



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28 Jan 2008, 3:32 pm

Sleepy, it's not a very nice thing to do to someone who's trying to have a serious disscussion about the idea of a cure. Disscussions like this have always bombed out in the past, due to calls of "Troll" or to the person who started the disscussion being driven off of the board. I just want to see something like this through to the end, and see where we end up in our understandings of the idea.

Good point. Then, why do you react so strongly?

Thank you. :D

TLPG, it was in terms of the public image about the spectrum, I believe. The LFA who wanted a cure was mocked, shunned, told off for "acting above their diagnosis," and the guy even wrote an article lumping her in with neurotypicals who have been considered the biggest idiots to be found. I am sorry, but I just can't help but feel that there's something inherently wrong with people insulting those worse off than them. He was the baddest apple I could find, in terms of Aspies behaving badly towards those with more severe autism than them.


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