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Barracuda
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10 Aug 2008, 8:59 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
Me neither. I'm with you on this one, slowmutant... I don't really see what's wrong with it, as long as it's done safely and with the child's best interests at heart (as I'm sure they are 99% of the time). You could say 'oh but it isn't safe', but then given that iatrogenic death is the number one killer in America anyway you could say the same to parents who give their children any other drug anyway...

The thing is, chelation is not safe, and it doesn't give results. If there were scientific evidence that it worked, and the risks were sufficiently low, I wouldn't mind people doing it. But screwing with your child's body systems for something not proven is stupid and unethical.


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11 Aug 2008, 2:13 am

Iatrogenic death - 'death by doctoring and drugs' - is the number one killer in the US anyway. If you're going to be up in arms about chelation, you might as well include all the other thousands of drugs that don't work and can kill as well. :roll:

(And guess what? Some just happen to be getting results with it. Whatever the reason - placebo or real effect - if it's done safely it should be fine, so why get so worked up about it?)


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lau
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11 Aug 2008, 5:45 am

LeKiwi wrote:
Iatrogenic death - 'death by doctoring and drugs' - is the number one killer in the US anyway. If you're going to be up in arms about chelation, you might as well include all the other thousands of drugs that don't work and can kill as well. :roll:

(And guess what? Some just happen to be getting results with it. Whatever the reason - placebo or real effect - if it's done safely it should be fine, so why get so worked up about it?)

Please stop putting out this misinformation.

Even according to your hero, Dr. Mercola, iatrogenic death comes third.

That statistic should be treated entirely as per "lies, damned lies and statistics", as it encompasses many deaths which were certain to occur anyway, but for interventions that successfully delayed that death, for a while.

As to "Some just happen to be getting results with it.", you seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying that some experimental lethal drug use is fine, provided a fringe quack says it's good for you, and can type up a "Look! It cured me!" testimonial for their website, but that all mainstream, well documented treatments are bad, because they are?


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11 Aug 2008, 5:48 am

Do the ends justify the means, as far as autism treatments go?



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11 Aug 2008, 12:21 pm

lau wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
Iatrogenic death - 'death by doctoring and drugs' - is the number one killer in the US anyway. If you're going to be up in arms about chelation, you might as well include all the other thousands of drugs that don't work and can kill as well. :roll:

(And guess what? Some just happen to be getting results with it. Whatever the reason - placebo or real effect - if it's done safely it should be fine, so why get so worked up about it?)

Please stop putting out this misinformation.

Even according to your hero, Dr. Mercola, iatrogenic death comes third.

That statistic should be treated entirely as per "lies, damned lies and statistics", as it encompasses many deaths which were certain to occur anyway, but for interventions that successfully delayed that death, for a while.

As to "Some just happen to be getting results with it.", you seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying that some experimental lethal drug use is fine, provided a fringe quack says it's good for you, and can type up a "Look! It cured me!" testimonial for their website, but that all mainstream, well documented treatments are bad, because they are?


:roll:

I would hardly call Dr Mercola my hero by any stretch of the imagination; he provides a good forum for discussion, and food for further research, but he's hardly perfect and there are plenty of things there I don't agree on...

If everyone who tried chelation (which is a treatment for heavy metal poisoning; whether or not it has any effect on autism is up for debate) died or was seriously injured by it there would be a massive crackdown. Facts are if it's carried out by an experienced doctor who knows what they're doing and has done it plenty of times before and is keeping a close eye on the case they'll 99% of the time be ok. Again, whether or not that has any effect on the autism is another story. I wouldn't tell anyone wanting to go down that route to go to anyone but the best and most experienced doctor around - in fact, I wouldn't tell anyone about it at all to be perfectly honest, I don't see the point unless heavy metal poisoning is in there as well.

There are of course cranks out there out to make a quick buck from desperate parents, but unfortunately there's not alot you can do about that except urge parents to exercise caution and good judgement.

As for 'mainstream treatments'; which are you talking about? Autism in particular? All mainstream medicine? Anything in between? That's a pretty broad term to be using so I can't answer that unless you're more specific.


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11 Aug 2008, 12:35 pm

No skilled or experienced doctor would administer chelation as a treatment for autism. DAN scrapes up their docs from so far beneath the barrel that they get metal filings along with them. When a DAN doc does chelation, it's dangerous, 'nuff said. On the other hand, if you have heavy metal poisoning (though it won't work on mercury poisoning), chelation will save your life, if done in a proper medical facility, under the supervision of a specialist in the treatment of poisons and related ailments. DAN doctors are not such specialists. DAN, in fact, is what I would consider a medical terrorist organization. They use the fear of their clients to rape them of their money, and harm autistic kids in the name of "curing" them of something that isn't an illness.



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11 Aug 2008, 12:51 pm

I'm not necessarily talking about chelation by a DAN doctor - if they're really that bad then I think my saying it needs to be done by a qualified, experienced, highly-skilled doctor should cover it nicely. ;)

(As I've said, I don't know a lot about DAN other than they say autism = heavy metal poisoning and like chelating people. I'd never heard of it until I came on this site).


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11 Aug 2008, 1:21 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
I'm not necessarily talking about chelation by a DAN doctor - if they're really that bad then I think my saying it needs to be done by a qualified, experienced, highly-skilled doctor should cover it nicely. ;)

(As I've said, I don't know a lot about DAN other than they say autism = heavy metal poisoning and like chelating people. I'd never heard of it until I came on this site).


They say autism=alot of different things
DAN's website

I'm not quite sure what their motivation is, but they are dangerous.


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lau
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11 Aug 2008, 4:37 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
...Facts are if it's [chelation is] carried out by an experienced doctor who knows what they're doing and has done it plenty of times before and is keeping a close eye on the case they'll 99% of the time be ok.

This is always your problem. You quote statistics that you make up out of thin air.

Here you state that a 1% mortality rate for "treating" healthy people with chelation is acceptable.


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11 Aug 2008, 4:45 pm

Ok, that was a ballpark figure, my apologies. Don't pull me up on maths; if I were to say it's my absolute weakest point it would be the understatement of the year. ;)

(Mild dyscalculia... for future ref. unless I'm actually quoting a statistic it's probably a very rough guesstimate.)


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12 Aug 2008, 6:45 am

I've yet to see figures in an Autistic person that states they've higher levels of mercury in their systems than any other person.
Besides which; how many heavy metals are all animals born with?
Can anybody say "iron"? If you were to swallow an entire pile of iron, etc. - you'd kill yourself.
But, BONDED MOLECULAR PARTICLES have entirely different results! Be that none; or beneficial.
Hell, you don't wanna suck up oxygen, either - at least, single atom oxygen. O2, on the other hand, is breathable.
Entirely different effect. Plus, we bond a carbon particle to that, producing CO2. Again, entirely different.

Chelation works: To cure radiation poisoning or heavy metal poisoning - real heavy metal poisoning.
But, this claim that chelation cures Autistics is... well, wrong. Very clearly. Anyone with base scientific understanding can see!
Unfortunately, the average parent of an Autistic child does not have that scientific understanding. All they see is magic numbers...

"Chelation therapy" is smoke-and-mirror tactics to make money.


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12 Aug 2008, 6:51 am

I don't think this topic merits any further discussion. I think we've closed the book on Jenny McCarthy and DAN and the rest of it. I could be wrong, but ...



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12 Aug 2008, 12:44 pm

Ishmael wrote:
I've yet to see figures in an Autistic person that states they've higher levels of mercury in their systems than any other person.
Besides which; how many heavy metals are all animals born with?
Can anybody say "iron"? If you were to swallow an entire pile of iron, etc. - you'd kill yourself.
But, BONDED MOLECULAR PARTICLES have entirely different results! Be that none; or beneficial.
Hell, you don't wanna suck up oxygen, either - at least, single atom oxygen. O2, on the other hand, is breathable.
Entirely different effect. Plus, we bond a carbon particle to that, producing CO2. Again, entirely different.
You forget that O2 is toxic in high quantities (80-100%) at higher pressures. Yet some people are using high pressure oxygen chambers to treat autism. I'm sure it's safe if done right, but combined with oxygen's flamibility... That's a disaster waiting to happen.


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12 Aug 2008, 1:55 pm

Ishmael wrote:
I've yet to see figures in an Autistic person that states they've higher levels of mercury in their systems than any other person.


Fair enough, but one thing I often wonder - dunno if anyone can answer this? - is how much more of those toxic heavy metals (like mercury) we ALL collectively, as a species (and other species) have in our bodies as compared to, say, 100 years ago? 500 years ago? 10,000 years ago? I'd say with the medical use of mercury in the 19th century it'd probably be more then, though so much more it would kill you before you showed chronic poisoning, but a millennium ago I'd be interested to know of...


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14 Aug 2008, 12:00 am

Dumb and Dumber is a classic.... Seriously.