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skyblu
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17 Dec 2008, 6:06 am

if i could go to jail with solitary confinement i would take it any day over summer camp where im in a crowded cabin with mean snipe-ish girls [im soo lucky i am too old and "crippled" to be drafted--at least as far as i know]
i have experienced both camps and jail and as long as i have the correct medical care im ok with "solitary" jail. The jail in a suicide vest in a isolated cell produced less anxiety than the summer camp experience [ i really did not want to harm myself in any way[in jail] but the people admitting me made a mistake that im thankful for.

So, what would help this obsessed person not repeat his mistakes again? it can depend on over-all intelligence and the co-morbid "disorders" he might have but OCD meds might be in order here.
i remember my obsessions with people in high school and my behavior [stalking] would be criminal now--no amount of jail or counseling would have stopped me-- but paxil really makes me too confused to hold a thought let alone an obsession-- I've been on it for 20 years on n off and im convinced that it changed my brain structure to where i can almost understand and have sympathy for neurotypicals. :lol:

i think that the criminal courts do try to prevent crime dont they? :? Then why expose a person like him to criminals who can teach him a thing or 2 that might make him a "better" criminal or even give him a new obsession that might be illegal ??

gosh, i have a strong dislike for wrong behavior too but my goal is to reduce harm not educate people in criminal behavior and not lay new foundations for worse mental problems than OCD

well that's my first post here re:Asperger's


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Macbeth
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17 Dec 2008, 7:06 am

There seems to be an odd polarisation of attitudes towards AS on this site. Half the posts are of the "I dont understand/cant stop/why do I do this or that.." with many pages of helpful or not so helpful advice and explanation. Then there are threads where someone with AS has done something illegal, and many pages of rants about how they should f*****g hang for their crimes because we all know exactly what we are doing and why and have perfect understanding of the law etc etc and that AS is no excuse for aberrant behaviour and so fourth.

These views seem contradictory. We are talking about a condition where (picking a random example) the noise someone makes when they are eating can trigger the same kind of anger as being punched.Or feedback from a badly wired amp can make someone headbutt walls. Can it really be so clear cut that someone with AS MUST be fully aware of what they are doing and why? And is it not hypocritical to offer help with one hand, and villify and damn with another?


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Keith
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17 Dec 2008, 7:33 am

How about if the case was to do with cigarettes? That being punishable by jail time... Think about that one for a while ....



ASPowerations
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17 Dec 2008, 1:00 pm

It doesn't matter whether or not he's an Aspie. He broke the law, he should face the consequences.


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17 Dec 2008, 4:07 pm

ASPowerations wrote:
It doesn't matter whether or not he's an Aspie. He broke the law, he should face the consequences.


This sort of post is what I was referring to in MY post.


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18 Dec 2008, 2:14 am

I have to say, the punishment seems ridiculous for the crime at hand - whether or not the guy has Asperger's. Is it really that big a deal that he should be spending several years of his life in prison?

For a more serious crime, though... I would generally lean towards Asperger's not being a viable excuse for murder, assault, rape or other violent crimes. The closest I can see to it being a legitimate defense is if a person was deliberately tormenting an Aspie after being asked not to and otherwise discouraged in a non-violent way to the point where they snapped, but then that would be only a part of the overall argument - the main part being that it was self-defense or something similar to that.

Basically, though, if we want to be seen as equal to NTs, we can't make excuses for our behavior beyond what the disorder actually entails.



18 Dec 2008, 2:37 am

Macbeth wrote:
There seems to be an odd polarisation of attitudes towards AS on this site. Half the posts are of the "I dont understand/cant stop/why do I do this or that.." with many pages of helpful or not so helpful advice and explanation. Then there are threads where someone with AS has done something illegal, and many pages of rants about how they should f***ing hang for their crimes because we all know exactly what we are doing and why and have perfect understanding of the law etc etc and that AS is no excuse for aberrant behaviour and so fourth.

These views seem contradictory. We are talking about a condition where (picking a random example) the noise someone makes when they are eating can trigger the same kind of anger as being punched.Or feedback from a badly wired amp can make someone headbutt walls. Can it really be so clear cut that someone with AS MUST be fully aware of what they are doing and why? And is it not hypocritical to offer help with one hand, and villify and damn with another?



Because we know right from wrong when it comes to law vs not knowing right from wrong in socialness? There is a big difference. The guy impersonated a transit employee. I don't see how someone can't help doing that. It's not like it's tourette's where he acted out on it and couldn't stop it. Hey he is getting two and a half years so the crime wasn't major. That is a hard lesson to learn from. That even happens to NTs too when they do something and didn't know what they did was illegal until they are arrested and they learn to not do it again unless they are stupid.



Last edited by Spokane_Girl on 18 Dec 2008, 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Magliabechi
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18 Dec 2008, 8:28 am

ASPowerations wrote:
It doesn't matter whether or not he's an Aspie. He broke the law, he should face the consequences.

Seconded.

Magliabechi.



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18 Dec 2008, 8:29 am

Spokane_Girl wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
There seems to be an odd polarisation of attitudes towards AS on this site. Half the posts are of the "I dont understand/cant stop/why do I do this or that.." with many pages of helpful or not so helpful advice and explanation. Then there are threads where someone with AS has done something illegal, and many pages of rants about how they should f***ing hang for their crimes because we all know exactly what we are doing and why and have perfect understanding of the law etc etc and that AS is no excuse for aberrant behaviour and so fourth.

These views seem contradictory. We are talking about a condition where (picking a random example) the noise someone makes when they are eating can trigger the same kind of anger as being punched.Or feedback from a badly wired amp can make someone headbutt walls. Can it really be so clear cut that someone with AS MUST be fully aware of what they are doing and why? And is it not hypocritical to offer help with one hand, and villify and damn with another?



Because we know right from wrong when it comes to law vs not knowing right from wrong in specialness? There is a big difference. The guy impersonated a transit employee. I don't see how someone can't help doing that. It's not like it's tourette's where he acted out on it and couldn't stop it. Hey he is getting two and a half years so the crime wasn't major. That is a hard lesson to learn from. That even happens to NTs too when they do something and didn't know what they did was illegal until they are arrested and they learn to not do it again unless they are stupid.


I'm not speaking in specifics of this AS crime or that AS crime..more the opinions held here.
A lot of us think we know right or wrong, and have very clear moral rules and imperatives. Those rules do not always match up with what is actually legal or not. I put forward various stoner threads as an example. The two things are not so clearly defined that we cannot cross various boundaries quite easily. But its more the polarised views here. People who will show infinite understanding and compassion for an Aspie harmed in a way that is considered legal (such as various techniques for care).. or people who even show huge outrage when Aspies are hurt by misguided parents or carers... these people will scream HANG EM HIGH when an Aspie breaks the law. It just seems weird.


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22 Dec 2008, 7:51 am

Seems this harsh sentence takes virtually no account of two central sentencing criteria : -

1) - Intentionality : was there an intention to cause damage or harm ?

2) - Suffering or loss : what were the consequences for the victim/s of this offence ?

Given that this guy has at least one relevant behavioural disability (AS) and probably, a secondary, compounding one (OCD) - appropriate remedial sentencing (compulsory therapy) should take precedence over punitive measures.

The guy's not a criminal, so punishment of this type seems inappropriate.



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21 Jan 2011, 6:56 am

Nachtus01 wrote:
This is such a tricky situation. I feel sorry for the guy, I really do, but if Asperger's is what he has, he still must face the consequences of his actions. The issues a lot of people dont understand, is that, when it comes to the law, mental defect is only effective if it means that you don't understand the difference between right and wrong.


I've always found this explanation that an insanity defense only works if you don't understand the difference between right and wrong strange and difficult to understand. It obviously doesn't literally mean not understanding the difference between right and wrong.

I mean if someone is arrested for possession of a controlled substance and they take the stand and deliver a big, beautiful speech defending their use then clearly they thought what they were doing was right and so if it is wrong as the law contends then that would reflect not knowing the difference between right and wrong. Anybody doing anything for "political reasons" would also be protected, since even if they were wrong they believed they were right and hence didn't understand the difference between right and wrong. But obviously you can't claim to be insane simply based on disagreeing with the law, so what does this whole "not understanding the difference between right and wrong" mean if you put it into completely literal terms?



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21 Jan 2011, 1:56 pm

I agree that something like probation and compulsory therapy might be more effective, but that has nothing to do with him being on the spectrum. Our whole justice system is ineffective, expensive, by turns lax and draconian, and bad at preventing recidivism. The man knew right from wrong and should be punished like anyone else. I just wish the penalties for everyone were more useful.



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21 Jan 2011, 2:20 pm

Arminius wrote:
I agree that something like probation and compulsory therapy might be more effective, but that has nothing to do with him being on the spectrum. Our whole justice system is ineffective, expensive, by turns lax and draconian, and bad at preventing recidivism. The man knew right from wrong and should be punished like anyone else. I just wish the penalties for everyone were more useful.


I grow weary of saying this: Knowing Right from Wrong is NOT the same as understanding what is legal and what is not.


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21 Jan 2011, 2:50 pm

Damn this weak and stupid individual! Doesn't he realise he's making me look bad?!

Sarcasm asside this guy shouldn't be in Gaol for this crime whether he has AS or not. But i think the fact he probably is AS shines a light on some of the innately self-centred and individualist responses to this man in this thread. Anyone would think he was Jared Loughner going by some of the responses here, rather than a harmless eccentric oddball. God forbid i ever end up in gaol , as i doubt i'll have my aspie brothers and sisters watching my back as apparently they fit a certain stereotype and don't really give a damn. :x :(



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22 Jan 2011, 1:21 am

I think the issue here is with the criminal juice system. There's lots of people who get sent to prison for breaking the laws because they have different mental conditions. The system should focus on mental help & treatment instead. He might be a repeat offender when he gets out if he doesn't get the help he needs


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22 Jan 2011, 2:15 am

Macbeth wrote:
Arminius wrote:
I agree that something like probation and compulsory therapy might be more effective, but that has nothing to do with him being on the spectrum. Our whole justice system is ineffective, expensive, by turns lax and draconian, and bad at preventing recidivism. The man knew right from wrong and should be punished like anyone else. I just wish the penalties for everyone were more useful.


I grow weary of saying this: Knowing Right from Wrong is NOT the same as understanding what is legal and what is not.


Ignorance of the law does not excuse people who break it. Whether he understands what is legal is not the question in an insanity defense, which is the only way he could argue that Aspergers should exonorate him. An insanity defense only holds water if the defendant could tell right from wrong. That said, I think it is stupid and overly harsh that this guy is going to jail. There must be a positive way to channel his interest. I think he should pay the same penalty as anyone else, but I disaprove of jail time as a penalty for this offence for anyone. The justice system likes simple solutions, like sending someone to prison, for complex situations. I think he should be held accountable for his actions and have to deal with what society has decided is a reasonable consequence for them even though I disagree with that consequence.