Page 3 of 4 [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Firegirl531
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 38
Location: Under a freakin' rock

22 Dec 2008, 3:11 pm

Quote:
Why are you questioning my right to express justified disgust at this ?


The same reason you assumed that I come from a pampered, easy life; and the reason why you are offended about the fact that I think that the parents, particualry the father, should have yet didn't take advantage of all the support systems given to them.

I'm sorry that you disagree, but I honestly believe that the half-assed, bull s**t excuse that the father "couldn't do it anymore" is comparable to the lady on the "Autism Everyday" vid who wanted to attempt murder-suicide and said it in front of her daughter.

I have asperger's syndrome and I absolutely HATE loud, high-pitched noises. I do, however, work with a group of 35 VERY loud and VERY annoying 7th and 8th graders who need severe help in math and ELA in order to pass their NYS exam so they can pass into the next grade. I have been working with this group for 3 yrs and despite the fact that they ignore my requests for their voices to be lowered; I soldier on. When an 8th grader screams an inch away from my ear just because I can't kick his ass for it, I don't hit, or yell (usually), or even leave never to return; I walk out of the room, sprint in the bathroom for 3 mins, and then continue on with my lesson because THAT'S WHAT ADULTS DO WITH PEOPLE THEY LOVE. And the only reason my boss allows this is because he know that no matter what those kids do, I will keep going back into that room because I am the adult. Adults don't give up, no matter what the pain, because children are humans too and they exist in this world and have the same right to life as you and me; not to mention that because you are the adult, you are (yes, dammit) responsible for those whom you have charge over.

Am I sorry for the man that killed his son?

Yes. But I am also angered because to quote Shindler's List:

"I could have always done more!"



MemberSix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Dec 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 606

22 Dec 2008, 4:15 pm

Firegirl531 wrote:
Quote:
Why are you questioning my right to express justified disgust at this ?


The same reason you assumed that I come from a pampered, easy life;

Is that supposed to make some kind of sense or something ?

You questioned my right to express my disgust for the same reason that I suggested you don't have it as hard as the parents of the murdered child ?

Firegirl531 wrote:
and the reason why you are offended about the fact that I think that the parents, particualry the father, should have yet didn't take advantage of all the support systems given to them.


I suggest you re-read my post.
Where did I say I was offended by your suggestion that they ought to have gotten help ?

Firegirl531 wrote:
I'm sorry that you disagree, but I honestly believe that the half-assed, bull sh** excuse that the father "couldn't do it anymore" is comparable to the lady on the "Autism Everyday" vid who wanted to attempt murder-suicide and said it in front of her daughter.

I have asperger's syndrome and I absolutely HATE loud, high-pitched noises. I do, however, work with a group of 35 VERY loud and VERY annoying 7th and 8th graders who need severe help in math and ELA in order to pass their NYS exam so they can pass into the next grade. I have been working with this group for 3 yrs and despite the fact that they ignore my requests for their voices to be lowered; I soldier on. When an 8th grader screams an inch away from my ear just because I can't kick his ass for it, I don't hit, or yell (usually), or even leave never to return; I walk out of the room, sprint in the bathroom for 3 mins,

Great - but you go home every night, after a few hours teaching on a few days each week.
They were the parents of an Autistic child 24 hours a day, for the last 12 x 365 days.


Firegirl531 wrote:
[ and then continue on with my lesson because THAT'S WHAT ADULTS DO WITH PEOPLE THEY LOVE. And the only reason my boss allows this is because he know that no matter what those kids do, I will keep going back into that room because I am the adult. Adults don't give up, no matter what the pain, because children are humans too and they exist in this world and have the same right to life as you and me; not to mention that because you are the adult, you are (yes, dammit) responsible for those whom you have charge over.

Am I sorry for the man that killed his son?

Yes. But I am also angered because to quote Shindler's List:

"I could have always done more!"

Stop being so bloody sanctimonious, you're making yourself look a fool for God's sake.
Know when to pipe down.



Naturella
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 8 Dec 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 186

22 Dec 2008, 4:53 pm

So, as a typical aspie I "think in pictures" and also have the right of being ultimately sincere, right? So upon the reading of the whole tread where participants dwell on the language of the article i visualize a picture of a bunch of monkeys on top of palm trees, who make all sorts of noises and offering each other bananas, idly speculate about some dead animal body lying below in the ground....



MissConstrue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 17,052
Location: Missouri

22 Dec 2008, 7:50 pm

Autism is a maddening disorder of scrambled brain development that can lead some parents to snap, experts say. Autistic children suffer abuse and are killed at higher rates than normal children.

Wow this one of the best articles and they don't have to elaborate what they mean by a "maddening" disorder. I would've been more precautious in my choice of words when discussing anything seriously related to a condition of some sort. Terminologies like a "maddening disorder" and "scrambeled brain" probably reflects what the writer is if they're too lazy to look up disorders or definable traits.

"It is so debilitating on entire families. For many families there comes a time when they can't take another minute of it," she said. "Even the most serene and loving parent in the world has a breaking point with this."

At what excuseable measures would a parent take if they're at their boiling point? Does that justify what this man did to his son? Statistically there is no simple answeres or explanations that would cause parents to kill their kids. The perpetrator may have many excuses for going to the extreme lengths they did. The reason for this case is as dense as the reasons for Munchausen Syndrome, Postpartum Depression, Major Depression Disorder, or even a shot of Bipolarism. Take Andrea Yates who killed her 7 children. Her excuse was insanity.

Statistically, there is evidence that points to the a family's history such as abuse rather than JUST a mental condition. "Normal" people normally don't go around killing their children because of their behavior not even aspies..... I can attest for myself.

Autism can make normal family life impossible. Parents get little respite. Costs of therapy and medicines can be staggering. Colorado, with its Taxpayer's Bill of Rights budget limitations, is notorious as a state with few services for the disabled, the category autism is included in. One in 169 children here is diagnosed with the disorder. That adds up to more than 26,000.

I agree that these cost up just as any healthcare system. It's ashame therapy is seperate from other areas such as doctors. I have to say though, that this can be anyone with who happens to have a disorder. My nephew has polymicrogyria and is undertaking most of what was listed above. Ashame to say that I was put through one therapist after another and they could never figure out what was wrong with me. It wasn't until my mother looked up aspergers from a show she watched. Me neither her had ever heard of it but I finally got diagnosed.

On another note, what makes tax payers the mighty experts in who deserves disability?

I feel really bad for people who are limited in such ways they can't help or cure. Like many, they end up living on the street like a bum with this false notion that all bums are lazy alcoholics. I've seen some people come in who were rescued from a life or death situation only to find them back out on the streets again with poor resources to even survive on.

"Dads can be so isolated from getting any support or even understanding what is going on," said Carla Rickard, who has an autistic son. "They may not understand that the problem is not caused by the mom being too easy on the child."

So it is assumed that it's the mother's fault if not autism. This is again either a poor choice of words or it's coming from a very bias perspective. Dads leave their children for many reasons. Some just don't want the responsibility in helping out as a parent.

One experience I did have with my dad regarding this topic is somewhat similiar. He would often ask me why I wasn't listening whenever he helped me out with homework. Problem was I did listen but I couldn't comprehend in the way he was teaching me any given problem or assignment. But this was back when he was very alcoholic...he was not nice to my mom as well. At the time, he decided not to go in support groups for his addiction. He wanted the easy way out. I'm glad to say now, he has been sober for the last 7 years and his whole attitude has changed tremendously. So this assumption could be due to other factors such as the dads themselves. My dad has been very supportive with me and my condition since I was diagnosed. I think he would've been a very different person had he remained an alcoholic. I don't think it's a matter of dads getting isolated as much as it is their choice to isolate themselves from any given help that is available.

But the way they used words such as can be so isolated from getting any support could be percieved or interpreted in many ways. This is like playing a guessing game

In less-serious cases, labeled Asperger syndrome (the type Jacob was diagnosed with), victims can often speak normally and can take part in some normal interactions. But they don't sleep well. They have obsessions.

Again another guessing game. What does it mean when the words they don't sleep well have to do with obsessions? Also it probably would've been good if they could be lucid as to what they mean by obsessions. This could be interpreted as unhealthy or sick obsessions.

They can't easily carry on normal conversations. They have difficulty making friends. And they have uncontrollable outbursts. Some of these children aren't diagnosed. They are simply termed "peculiar" or their parents are blamed for not controlling them.

So far true in my case. I wasn't diagnosed until a few years ago and went through one doctor to another who had no clue. If it hadn't been for my mother who learned about it by accident, I probably would never have been diagnosed. As for peculiar, my parents used the word special or gifted....not sure why.

And again what is this phrase used more than once of "parents not controlling them." How does a child's idiosyncracy have anything to do with their upbringing. Children are not blank slates who are born to take orders from their parents. True they may cross boundaries that aren't good in which controlling them may be necessary or in this case discipline. But as far as the child's peculiarity, how does controlling them from not fitting into a certain idealistic standard helpful?

As for outbursts, I had some but not to the point where I couldn't stop if there were consequences at hand. Plus I've never gone to the extreme of wanting or attempting to kill someone because of my anger. In fact I took anger management classes and do not have these unexpected outbursts that I use to act out. However I still have a high level of irritability that makes it so hard to function normally in a high stress environment. I've tried everything I could to ignore or relieve it but no such luck so far.

Friends were stunned. They speculate that Allen Grabe might suffer from undiagnosed Asperger himself. He was "peculiar."

So this is what made him do what he did even though there is little known about him such as his family history or other psychological records. I assume that this article is meant to indicate aspergers as the contributor for why he shot his son in cold blood. There are no statistics that claim people in the autism spectrum are capable of killing. It is not a mental illness but neurological profile disorder. We're not dumb and we have the same advantage as NTs to control an undiserable behavior.

I have to say, I feel very insulted by the way this "hypothetical analysis" that aspergers is contributed to a violent behavior. Even if the father was killing his son only because...he didn't want him to suffer like he did, this spells BS.

I won't go further into the excuses in which these parents broke down to the point that they killed their children. I've seen violent children without autism get treated better than this. Murderering your own child because of a break down is the most lame excuse I've heard. Sounds like the parents need to go to a mental institution. Hypothetically, if they were causing them great stress to the point where they had to abuse or kill them, then they have the inablility to think before reacting which doesn't seem "normal." There are a lot of other options such as foster care, giving them up for adoption, etc.

This article is not only bias IMO but very very very misleading and a dangerous one at that if someone should happen to run into it because they have an autistic in the family. It was also poorly phrased, poorly worded by repetitious phrases, and indirect with filling in the missing pieces.


As for the link. I found the rules just as misleading as the article such rules against slanderous, Harmful, Misleading, Deceitful, and Lebelous. It's obvious that you can't give input that disagrees with this article as it might be Harmful or "Deceitful"....whatever that means. Very bigoted IMO.


_________________
I live as I choose or I will not live at all.
~Delores O’Riordan


sinsboldly
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,488
Location: Bandon-by-the-Sea, Oregon

22 Dec 2008, 9:50 pm

MemberSix wrote:
Firegirl531 wrote:
To be frank, I believe that it is you, Member Six, that is the judgmental one as you are the only one who is doing the personal attacks here.

Personal attacks ?
Why not have done with it and call me a troll ? (the last resort of the lost)
Firegirl531 wrote:
But in order to prevent a potential flame war from breaking out...
I think this line says more about your attitude than my own.
Firegirl531 wrote:
::takes slow deep breath::

Well, then fine. If I am, to quote you anyway, a sick, compassion-less, judgmental person; then tell me: what are your thoughts on the matter? Other than stating the obvious: that it was a horrible event

It didn't seem that obvious to you.
Your original reaction appeared to be one of outrage at this tragic occurrence.

Firegirl531 wrote:
(which it was). What sentence, if any, do you believe the father and/or mother should get and why?

I have no wish to pass comment on punishment in a very sad case.


MemberSix, please remember that we are polite to our guests that have recently become members. Please craft your arguments around our specified requirements.

Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.


Merle


_________________
Alis volat propriis
State Motto of Oregon


Roxas_XIII
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2007
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,217
Location: Laramie, WY

23 Dec 2008, 12:27 am

Orwell wrote:
Quote:
In less-serious cases, labeled Asperger syndrome (the type Jacob was diagnosed with), victims can often speak normally and can take part in some normal interactions. But they don't sleep well. They have obsessions. They can't easily carry on normal conversations. They have difficulty making friends. And they have uncontrollable outbursts. Some of these children aren't diagnosed. They are simply termed "peculiar" or their parents are blamed for not controlling them.

"Victim?!" You wanna see an "uncontrollable outburst," call me a "victim" again. :evil:


Indeed. Nazis will be Nazis, and if I had my way all of these as*holes would be dead within the hour.


_________________
"Yeah, so this one time, I tried playing poker with tarot cards... got a full house, and about four people died." ~ Unknown comedian

Happy New Year from WP's resident fortune-teller! May the cards be ever in your favor.


MemberSix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Dec 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 606

23 Dec 2008, 3:26 am

sinsboldly wrote:
MemberSix wrote:
Firegirl531 wrote:
To be frank, I believe that it is you, Member Six, that is the judgmental one as you are the only one who is doing the personal attacks here.

Personal attacks ?
Why not have done with it and call me a troll ? (the last resort of the lost)
Firegirl531 wrote:
But in order to prevent a potential flame war from breaking out...
I think this line says more about your attitude than my own.
Firegirl531 wrote:
::takes slow deep breath::

Well, then fine. If I am, to quote you anyway, a sick, compassion-less, judgmental person; then tell me: what are your thoughts on the matter? Other than stating the obvious: that it was a horrible event

It didn't seem that obvious to you.
Your original reaction appeared to be one of outrage at this tragic occurrence.

Firegirl531 wrote:
(which it was). What sentence, if any, do you believe the father and/or mother should get and why?

I have no wish to pass comment on punishment in a very sad case.


MemberSix, please remember that we are polite to our guests that have recently become members. Please craft your arguments around our specified requirements.

Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.


Merle

And you're supposed to be impartial ?

You're a bad loser, Merle.

A decent mod doesn't threaten another member with a ban, because they disagree with their position.

If I had a killfile, you'd now be languishing in it.

Your overbearing attitude is disgusting.

Try and modify it, please.



Magnus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,372
Location: Claremont, California

23 Dec 2008, 3:47 am

In extreme cases of autism it's a miserable existence for everyone involved. The quality of life goes way down. Everyone has a breaking point. Most of us our lucky that we are not faced with situations that break a person down to do something he/she would never want to do.

It's easy to judge and difficult to understand what others really go through as parents. Of course murder is a horrible thing and violence is a terrible characteristic of being human. It's just that not everything is so black and white. We shouldn't use this as an example for autistic rights.


_________________
As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

-Pythagoras


Naturella
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 8 Dec 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 186

23 Dec 2008, 3:58 am

sinsboldly wrote:

MemberSix, please remember that we are polite to our guests that have recently become members. Please craft your arguments around our specified requirements.

Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.


Merle

I think some people just provoke the reaction of anger on themselves, by misinterpreting, making a lot of unrelated remarks and drawing irrelevant conclusions. I do not know why they do it - out of the mere inability to argument logically or just intentionally to irritate their interlocutor.
I , however, regret that Member Six spent so much energy trying to struggle with windmills. It is impossible to persuade somebody who is not listening.
Still, I think if MemberSix will be banned the forum will loose a very intelligent person, whose posts are a interesting and to the point.



Naturella
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 8 Dec 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 186

23 Dec 2008, 4:09 am

Magnus wrote:
In extreme cases of autism it's a miserable existence for everyone involved. The quality of life goes way down. Everyone has a breaking point. Most of us our lucky that we are not faced with situations that break a person down to do something he/she would never want to do.

It's easy to judge and difficult to understand what others really go through as parents. Of course murder is a horrible thing and violence is a terrible characteristic of being human. It's just that not everything is so black and white. We shouldn't use this as an example for autistic rights.

+1. I think it is quite obvious that all the parents who killed their child were driven to dispare. It was an act of dispare. It was not a cold-blooded murdering in any of the case. It was all completely crazy actions and after they killed their children - they turned themselves to the police. It was nothing like a planned murder.
Why did not they try to hand their children over to some social care institution ? May be they did not want to. May be they hoped they could still manage?
It is such an appauling tragedy. It makes me pause , it makes me speachless. How can anybody pass any judgements? How can anybody be so callous?



MemberSix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Dec 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 606

23 Dec 2008, 4:22 am

Naturella wrote:
I think some people just provoke the reaction of anger on themselves, by misinterpreting, making a lot of unrelated remarks and drawing irrelevant conclusions. I do not know why they do it - out of the mere inability to argument logically or just intentionally to irritate their interlocutor.
I , however, regret that Member Six spent so much energy trying to struggle with windmills. It is impossible to persuade somebody who is not listening.
Still, I think if MemberSix will be banned the forum will loose a very intelligent person, whose posts are a interesting and to the point.

Here I am again Naturella, thanking you for your kind words.



sinsboldly
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,488
Location: Bandon-by-the-Sea, Oregon

23 Dec 2008, 11:10 am

sinsboldy wrote:
MemberSix, please remember that we are polite to our guests that have recently become members. Please craft your arguments around our specified requirements.

Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.


Merle

And you're supposed to be impartial ?

MemberSix wrote:
You're a bad loser, Merle.

A decent mod doesn't threaten another member with a ban, because they disagree with their position.

If I had a killfile, you'd now be languishing in it.

Your overbearing attitude is disgusting.

Try and modify it, please.


I don't find either your or their postion anything I would personally side for or against and I did not threaten anything. I merely stated the rules you agreed to when you registered on WrongPlanet.net. Now that your behaviour has brought you to the attention of the moderators, I would say it is your attitude that will now become modified.

Merle


_________________
Alis volat propriis
State Motto of Oregon


MemberSix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Dec 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 606

23 Dec 2008, 1:20 pm

sinsboldly wrote:
sinsboldy wrote:
MemberSix, please remember that we are polite to our guests that have recently become members. Please craft your arguments around our specified requirements.

Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.


Merle

And you're supposed to be impartial ?

MemberSix wrote:
You're a bad loser, Merle.

A decent mod doesn't threaten another member with a ban, because they disagree with their position.

If I had a killfile, you'd now be languishing in it.

Your overbearing attitude is disgusting.

Try and modify it, please.


I don't find either your or their postion anything I would personally side for or against and I did not threaten anything. I merely stated the rules you agreed to when you registered on WrongPlanet.net. Now that your behaviour has brought you to the attention of the moderators, I would say it is your attitude that will now become modified.

Merle

Every time you wave a big stick about to silence people, you diminish the forum.

There really should be a decent vetting process for appointing moderators.



MemberSix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Dec 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 606

23 Dec 2008, 1:28 pm

I just looked at your profile, Sinsboldly - which explained a lot.



HarryWilliams
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2008
Age: 123
Gender: Male
Posts: 189

23 Dec 2008, 4:30 pm

It's time this troll was put on a starvation diet.

Sinsboldly, if you've got anytime have a look through his posts. They show a consistent and repeated patten of trouble making. This boy's got some serious issues that can't be explained by AS. Personality Disorder maybe?

I don't think it's appropriate that he's allowed to remain a member of a board with so many vulnerable members.



lucy1
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Female
Posts: 316

23 Dec 2008, 5:17 pm

MemberSix wrote:
What's sad is that so far on this thread, everyone's taken a very partisan, anti-NT position - like the continuation of some sick war against non-Autistics.

I understand (but don't sympathise with) the bitterness that a lifetime of victimisation and exclusion can cause - but Autism is no more the fault of NT's than it is of AS'ers.

These cases are very sad.
Yes, what was done was wrong - but more than that, it was tragic.
These fathers are not gratuitous killers who get pleasure from inflicting suffering - they are in most cases, Aspies who after a lifetime of very difficult parenting, face the prospect of bankrupcy - and crack under the pressure.

I'd like to see how you'd handle being the parent of an Autistic child in those same circumstances.

Judge not, lest thee be judged thyself.
Walk a mile in my shoes, etc.

.


I agree with this point of view. The father was very likely an aspie, maybe struggling to bring up his precious aspie child.

Hypothesizing here, maybe the father couldn't handle the idea that his child might end up facing his own feelings of victimisation and exclusion. I doubt the father was of sound mind when he picked up the gun and shot his child, but whatever he is now in jail.

Nothing ever happens in isolation, there will always be outside influences that lead to situations like this. Blaming doesn't help when solutions are needed.

To reiterate, what happened was clearly and of course wrong.... and it was also tragic.