Obesity "Fat" acceptance movement in the U.S.

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tensordyne
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10 Sep 2019, 1:05 pm

Fat acceptance triggers me on many fronts.

Fat acceptance is predicated upon the idea that getting fat is no one's fault since doing anything different would not have made a bit of difference. This is false. Even for those with metabolic conditions, your best bet to stay in weight is to go on a plant strong Vegan diet. For the vast majority that is the rest of humanity though, you have no excuse, it is only your meat and dairy eating diet that is causing you to be fat in the first place; if you change, you will 100% loose the weight.

Stop the excuses: I lost the weight, so can you.


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tensordyne
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10 Sep 2019, 1:12 pm

The latest IPCC report says we need to go Vegan for the sake of the survival of our species.
I am sure I will either get no responses back from any of my comments; or I will get responses that wallow in the unfairness of sickly fat people having to change... because it's tasty you know, which, let me get to in a moment.

I tried to get my Mom to go Vegan. Did not go well. I can hear her thoughts in some of the things people have already written. She compared me to a door to door fundie trying to get her to convert. I wish I had the words at the time to tell her what I thought of her actions, but I will now.

Me: "Hey Mom, sorry you feel that way, but the science is in, humans are, anatomically speaking herbivores mamals that all too eaily become animal flesh addicts, literally!"

I wanted my Mom to go Vegan because I wanted her with me on the right side of history. This was not the only or main reason though. The main reason is because I love my Mom and don't want her to suffer unnecessarily. I want her around. I would have been so proud of her had she switched.

But she didn't, because she accepts being fat.


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Magna
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10 Sep 2019, 7:54 pm

^ There was a recent study published that concluded that vegans have a higher risk of stroke than omnivores. I think it was by a rather alarming margin from what I recall.

Even so, I fully support anyone who chooses to be vegan or vegetarian. Forcing people to be vegan against their will...that's an interesting concept. It could end up coming to fruition in the future under the auspices of the nebulous and therefore limitless "global environmental crises" which of itself has a greater potential for worldwide control and subjugation than anything yet devised.


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auntblabby
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10 Sep 2019, 10:44 pm

good tasting food is all some folk have. asking them to go vegan and permanently forswear tasty food, to give up the idea of food as anything more than bare sustenance, is a step too far for many.



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11 Sep 2019, 5:20 am

I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian, but I eat way less meat than I used to and plan to drop the amount even more, especially red meat. This is something literally anyone who eats meat can do, even if they lessen the amount just a little bit.



tensordyne
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11 Sep 2019, 11:29 pm

The three replies before this one do not fully take the issues seriously. Fireblossom, I am glad you eat less meat than you used to and are considering giving it up completely or whatever, but that is about as positive as I get. Values signaling does not ease the angst I feel. Sorry if I am militant, but it matters, so here is an education on the topics.

There was a recent study published that concluded that vegans have a higher risk of stroke than omnivores. I think it was by a rather alarming margin from what I recall.

How recent? When most people say recent they mean within the last year. I think I might know of the study you are referring to. Be careful of confounders when considering studies. Did it have anything to do with what this Doctor is talking about in the following video. If so, the counter-critique is the following.

Before I say the counter-critique, let me restate what you wrote, but in argument form to give a critique. If I don't capture your thoughts, apologies. So here goes, why should I go Vegan if this study shows Vegans have a higher risk of stroke?

It is because that study is old and the Vegans in it did not know to keep their omega-3 to omega-6 ratio healthy (lots of sunflower oil in those fried chips). They then developed arteriosclerosis, which is hardening of the artery walls. The disease of arteriosclerosis differs from atherosclerosis. Atherosclerosis results from plaque on the artery walls. There is strong evidence to suggest that if you don't eat oils all the time, get B12 and live on plant strong vegan diet, you will live the longest and healthiest. This comes from studies of the populations that live longest in areas known as Blue-Zones.

good tasting food is all some folk have. asking them to go vegan and permanently forswear tasty food, to give up the idea of food as anything more than bare sustenance, is a step too far for many.

I have hamburgers, fries, potato chips, ice-cream, and hotdogs, whenever I want. I eat as much as I want and am still losing weight that needs to come off. Fruit tastes better since I stopped eating food drenched in salt and fat. There is no bare sustenance here... How many Vegans do you know auntblabby? I only ask because it just sounds like you are telling us your imagined fears more than you are telling us anything based upon solid experience.

Here is the question: Is meat a human addiction?

auntblabby already gave the addiction excuse I have heard a million times before. Imagine you are a person trying to survive the post-apocalyptic conditions of weather changes to come, and you look on forums with people complaining about having to change, because of the taste. These people had every opportunity to change, hell, it would have been so easy for them to change compared to what you now have to endure, but they didn't, because of addiction. I would hate you guys, like with a passion. Just saying, it is only logical in fact to come to that conclusion.

So go Vegan so future generations don't look on you like you are the crappiest people of all time.
Or don't, accept that you are fat, and that you are crapping the future away. Your choice...


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auntblabby
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11 Sep 2019, 11:35 pm

^^^the vegans i DO KNOW [despite your snarky hinting at, otherwise] eat unadorned raw veggies and limited amounts of fruit to keep their carbs down. they are the ones who told me their opinion of the vulgarity of enjoying food rather than treating it as bare sustenance. in their view, all the foods you mentioned wouldn't count as vegan.



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12 Sep 2019, 5:28 am

Vegan diet is good when done right, but if you don't know what you're doing, your body will most likely not get everything it needs. Going vegan out of the blue is a very bad idea, but after enough research and with enough skills it's a healthy and enviroment friendly path.

And I suppose I'm going off topic. Oops...



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12 Sep 2019, 5:40 am

my sister went whole-hog vegan a few years back to sidestep various food allergies she has. avoiding gluten and gliadin means her diet is extremely spare. basically raw veggies and brown rice/quinoa/amaranth/buckwheat. minimal cooking only. she is fit as a fiddle, though, despite being 4 years older than me, she looks a decade younger. she started out also avoiding fake meat and fake cheese/fake cream/fake mayonnaise and such, but lately has mellowed out a bit and now incorporates things like fake mayo, soy cheese and Quorn in her diet, that is a mycoprotein-based fake meat with no gluten in it. i have gradually edged towards eating in a similar manner, over a period of a few years i cut out gluten and gliadin. i eat fish, though, and i still eat cheese but about half of it is fake cheese. i like eating Quorn also, it is tasty if somewhat high in sodium. so i don't eat it much, i use it mainly as an accent or garnish of sorts.



tensordyne
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12 Sep 2019, 6:55 pm

Fireblossom, maybe I am being too harsh on you. Everything you said is correct; it is just, can you explain to me - and I am not asking this to be mean - but doesn't it bother you then people eating meat and dairy now that new science and ethics are in on the topic? I don't get it...

auntblabby, The Vegans you know eat to reduce carb calories? I don't know; I don't think your sister is a good examplar of the average Vegan. I have seen that comment too about what makes up a Vegan diet. I don't know why this is so complicated. A diet without animal products is a Vegan diet. You don't have to be a keto raw (insert other unusual qualifiers) Vegan to be a Vegan. You want to be a healthy Vegan, here is the formula.

Eat Vegan food. Eat mostly unprocessed, light to no oils. Regularly get B12 and sunlight. Get some exercise. Eat nothing you are allergic too. Have an appropriate social life.

You will then be fine.

Yes, Vodka and Oreos count as Vegan, but if that is the whole of your diet, you will be dead within the year. I would really suggest getting off the fish. Each kind of meat comes with its own issues. With fish it is heavy metals, microplastics and the high levels of saturated fat. The problem with chicken are the obesogenic viruses, saturated fat and Neu5Gc link to cancer. I could go on, and on, and on...

There is a science to this. Sorry for the snarkiness, it just bothers me there is no mechanism to pin other people down on their views. I have heard so many excuses before; I am just tired of it. This is not the first Wrong Planet thread on fat acceptance. I think it is like the 5th?

OK, now you know! Take care of yourselves...


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Magna
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12 Sep 2019, 11:57 pm

Could I still be allowed to eat meat grown in a lab if your rules are made mandatory for everyone?


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13 Sep 2019, 5:31 am

tensordyne wrote:
Fireblossom, maybe I am being too harsh on you. Everything you said is correct; it is just, can you explain to me - and I am not asking this to be mean - but doesn't it bother you then people eating meat and dairy now that new science and ethics are in on the topic? I don't get it...

auntblabby, The Vegans you know eat to reduce carb calories? I don't know; I don't think your sister is a good examplar of the average Vegan. I have seen that comment too about what makes up a Vegan diet. I don't know why this is so complicated. A diet without animal products is a Vegan diet. You don't have to be a keto raw (insert other unusual qualifiers) Vegan to be a Vegan. You want to be a healthy Vegan, here is the formula.

Eat Vegan food. Eat mostly unprocessed, light to no oils. Regularly get B12 and sunlight. Get some exercise. Eat nothing you are allergic too. Have an appropriate social life.

You will then be fine.

Yes, Vodka and Oreos count as Vegan, but if that is the whole of your diet, you will be dead within the year. I would really suggest getting off the fish. Each kind of meat comes with its own issues. With fish it is heavy metals, microplastics and the high levels of saturated fat. The problem with chicken are the obesogenic viruses, saturated fat and Neu5Gc link to cancer. I could go on, and on, and on...

There is a science to this. Sorry for the snarkiness, it just bothers me there is no mechanism to pin other people down on their views. I have heard so many excuses before; I am just tired of it. This is not the first Wrong Planet thread on fat acceptance. I think it is like the 5th?

OK, now you know! Take care of yourselves...


When it comes to ethics, I just don't see it as wrong. As for science, well, I don't think it's all that good of an idea to obsess about every new thing that is discovered. Common sense ought to be enough for most people to eat healthily.

...But then again, I suppose that's not the case since there are so many overweight people in the world.



tensordyne
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13 Sep 2019, 6:17 pm

Magna, I don't see eating lab-meat as a problem. It would be a rarity of the diet in this hypothetical future. Like the Impossible Whopper (and Vegan Ice-cream, hotdogs, etc...) is for me now; I probably shouldn't eat that stuff, but it is not the end of the world either. Most of the time I crave a nice hearty bowl of lentil soup over any kind of franken-veggie-foods. It is a good thing that Vegans don't have to even miss out on the junk food though, because that is one less excuse.

Look, I like to think I am pragmatic. So let me get back to you after I address Fireblossom:


When it comes to ethics, I just don't see it as wrong. As for science, well, I don't think it's all that good of an idea to obsess about every new thing that is discovered. Common sense ought to be enough for most people to eat healthily.

...But then again, I suppose that's not the case since there are so many overweight people in the world.


Common sense is that humans are omnivores, which is false. Common sense used to be that the world was flat. Common sense, even as you have noted, can be wrong. How do you define wrong though, just so I know?

Here are some questions. Let me know how you answer them.

1. Do you need to eat meat or dairy products to live? My answer is no.
2. Does it cause harm in multiple ways to eat animal products? My answer is yes.

This is _not_ obsession, it is just owning up to the facts. Here is another question.

3. Are humans best adapted to an omnivore diet? My answer is no, humans have the biology of a hyper-herbivore.

How is it obsessing over nothing when our survival is on the line? Animal agriculture is a major contributor to climate change -- you know, the thing that will probably wipe us out as a species?

So Magna and Fireblossom, yeah, it pisses me off the thought of everyone being an addict, not caring, and then plunging us into some new dark age over "taste". That pisses me off a lot. It should piss you off too.


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Yesterday, 4:40 am

tensordyne wrote:
Common sense is that humans are omnivores, which is false. Common sense used to be that the world was flat. Common sense, even as you have noted, can be wrong. How do you define wrong though, just so I know?

Here are some questions. Let me know how you answer them.

1. Do you need to eat meat or dairy products to live? My answer is no.
2. Does it cause harm in multiple ways to eat animal products? My answer is yes.

This is _not_ obsession, it is just owning up to the facts. Here is another question.

3. Are humans best adapted to an omnivore diet? My answer is no, humans have the biology of a hyper-herbivore.

How is it obsessing over nothing when our survival is on the line? Animal agriculture is a major contributor to climate change -- you know, the thing that will probably wipe us out as a species?

So Magna and Fireblossom, yeah, it pisses me off the thought of everyone being an addict, not caring, and then plunging us into some new dark age over "taste". That pisses me off a lot. It should piss you off too.


Ahem...

Quote:
An omnivore is an animal that has the ability to eat and survive on both plant and animal matter


So yes, humans are definitely omnivore, but since we can also survive on vegan diet, we don't have to act like we are. But even if I became full vegan right now, it wouldn't change the fact that my body would be able to make use of animal products were I to eat them. So by nature and evolution, it is what we are.

I am not saying that it's obsessing over nothing, just that many people are dangerously obsessed about it. For example, here we have some politicans who think it'd be okay to just force everyone to go vegan. While we need to seriously think about these things due to climate change and such, attacking people like that is not okay. Also, economy and self sustaining need to be taken in to account as well. For examble, where I'm from we have lots of land that isn't really suitable for raising eatable plants for people, but is suitable for raising food for animals. If raising animals for food stopped, those lands couldn't be used to their full potential and the country wouldn't be able to support itself by producing it's own food the way it used to, which would lead to more debt and the people's lives worsening. And while we could probably somehow buy what's needed from abroad normally, what would happen if a war broke out? We might no longer get food. Or if the crops are bad where the food is made? The priority will obviously be the locals, so what if there isn't enough for us? Completely destroying cattle industry would damage countries and areas where raising many plants is difficult, and that is the main reason I don't support the world going vegan. Sure, lessening the amount of meat eaten is good and should be done, but the world stopping completely would harm too many people in the places mentioned before... or do you think it'd be okay to sacrifice them for the rest of the world's sake?

BTW, if no one ever used animal products again, why bother keeping cattle? Unless the government paid some people to specifically just keep cows and such alive, I don't think anyone would bother with how much work and how expensive it is. And even if the government did, the amount of those animals in the world would drop a lot.

Also, how about we talk about pet cats, dogs and other meat eaters? Some people need service dogs and dogs are useful for some other jobs too, but if we exclude the working dogs, why allow anyone to keep meat eating pets like that? They're bad for the enviroment.

And this is getting seriously off topic. Should we just start a new one?



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Yesterday, 8:07 am

Can someone school me on this: My understanding is that vitamin B12 doesn't occur in the plant world and as such, if a vegan did not take a B12 supplement, a vegan would eventually get sick and ultimately would die. Is that incorrect?

Or, to put it another way with a yes or no answer: Can a vegan live an entire lifetime eating strictly plant matter and without taking any vitamin supplements?

I always thought cervids like deer were vegetarian. Turns out they also eat insects, mice and other small animals. They're omnivores too.


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