the ichiro suzuki aprechiation thread

Page 2 of 3 [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Sylvius
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 97
Location: Canada

13 Aug 2007, 1:30 pm

calandale wrote:
Sylvius wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
this is true! a throwback to ty cobb :D

More of a Wee Willie Keeler, I think.

Keeler, incidentally, held the record for most singles in one season (206 in 1898) until Ichiro broke that in 2004 (225 singles). Also, Keeler had 8 consecutive 200 hit seasons, also the major-league record. Ichiro has 6 straight to start his career (should make it 7 sometime in early September).

Though, your comparison is quite good. The American League record for most 200 hit seasons (consecutive or not) is 9, held by Ty Cobb (Pete Rose holds the major league record with 10).


But you can't compare them.
Ichiro gets at least 100 extra
at bats a year.

Let's investigate that, shall we?

You mentioned at-bats, but plate appearances is probably the more relevant measure. Let's not penalise either player for producing things other than hits or outs.

Over his 8 200 hit seasons, Keeler averaged 628 PA/season. Over Ichiro's 6 200-hit seasons, he has averaged 746 PA/season, so Ichiro has had, on average 19% more plate appearances.

There are a bunch of reasons for this. First, Ichiro plays a longer season. Also, Ichiro plays in an era where more runs are scored overall, which means games last long and he gets more plate appearances per game than Keeler would have.

But the circumstances don't all benefit Ichiro. Ichiro's batting average and on-base percentage over his 6 seasons are .331 and .379 respectively, while Keeler's are .378 and .430. But Keeler's are less remarkable than they appear relative to the league average. Ichiro's league (the American League 2001-2006) posted a batting average of .267, while Keeler's league (the National League 1894-1901) posted an average BA of .286, so Keeler only beats Ichiro relative to the league average by 28 points rather than the 47 points it first appears. 28 points is a difference of 16 hits over 600 at-bats.

Plus, the defenders of Keeler's era wore much smaller gloves, plus he played in a segregated game and thus only faced pitchers drawn from a much smaller pool of possible competitors. In addition, Keeler spent most of his career as a corner outfielder, which is a less demanding defensive position that Ichiro's centerfield (which admittedly he just switched to this season).

If you correct for defense and era, they're very similar players. Someone's actually already done this for us.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/keelewi01.php

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/suzukic01.php

Adjusted for all time, Ichiro averages 34.7 batting runs above average in his 6 200-hit seasons, while Keeler averages only 31 batting runs above average. Adding defence to the equation, Ichiro averaged 9.25 wins above replacement position (WARP3 - adjusted for all-time) over his 6 seasons, while Keeler managed only 8.85 WARP3/season, on average.

They're remarkably similar players.



richardbenson
Xfractor Card #351
Xfractor Card #351

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,553
Location: Leave only a footprint behind

17 Aug 2007, 8:22 pm

3 hits tonite bud. ok? :D


_________________
Winds of clarity. a universal understanding come and go, I've seen though the Darkness to understand the bounty of Light


richardbenson
Xfractor Card #351
Xfractor Card #351

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,553
Location: Leave only a footprint behind

19 Aug 2007, 10:33 pm

3 hits is what you got, 176 + a win :D


_________________
Winds of clarity. a universal understanding come and go, I've seen though the Darkness to understand the bounty of Light


calandale
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,439

20 Aug 2007, 12:51 am

Sylvius wrote:

But the circumstances don't all benefit Ichiro. Ichiro's batting average and on-base percentage over his 6 seasons are .331 and .379 respectively, while Keeler's are .378 and .430. But Keeler's are less remarkable than they appear relative to the league average. Ichiro's league (the American League 2001-2006) posted a batting average of .267, while Keeler's league (the National League 1894-1901) posted an average BA of .286, so Keeler only beats Ichiro relative to the league average by 28 points rather than the 47 points it first appears. 28 points is a difference of 16 hits over 600 at-bats.

Plus, the defenders of Keeler's era wore much smaller gloves, plus he played in a segregated game and thus only faced pitchers drawn from a much smaller pool of possible competitors. In addition, Keeler spent most of his career as a corner outfielder, which is a less demanding defensive position that Ichiro's centerfield (which admittedly he just switched to this season).

If you correct for defense and era, they're very similar players. Someone's actually already done this for us.


I hadn't thought of the comparison to the average of
the league. Indeed, it gives a nice number to look at.
BUT, the smaller gloves and less effective pitchers are
also factored into that number then.

Really though, the game itself is so different, in so
many ways, I don't think anyone could reasonably
make any comparisons. For example, I'm sure that
if Ichiro were to play in Keeler's time, he'd be discriminated
against. Whereas, if Keeler were to play today, he'd probably
be unable to keep up with modern athletes.



Sylvius
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 97
Location: Canada

28 Aug 2007, 2:44 pm

calandale wrote:
I hadn't thought of the comparison to the average of the league. Indeed, it gives a nice number to look at.
BUT, the smaller gloves and less effective pitchers are also factored into that number then.

Really though, the game itself is so different, in so many ways, I don't think anyone could reasonably make any comparisons. For example, I'm sure that if Ichiro were to play in Keeler's time, he'd be discriminated against. Whereas, if Keeler were to play today, he'd probably be unable to keep up with modern athletes.

True - modern athletes receive far better nutrition as children, so they grow up to be stronger, faster men. Plus, the advanced training regimen of a modern athlete would likely put Keeler to shame.

But since both Ichiro and those he faces have the same benefits, they cancel each other out. That's why comparing to the league average is so important. Since baseball is a zero-sum game (for every winner there must be a loser) it's performance above or below the average that really matters.

Oh, and Ichiro got hit 190 last night.



richardbenson
Xfractor Card #351
Xfractor Card #351

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,553
Location: Leave only a footprint behind

30 Aug 2007, 11:03 pm

my favorite ichiro comercial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1cwKmRO0s



Sylvius
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 97
Location: Canada

03 Sep 2007, 6:58 pm

Hits 199, 200, and 201 today against Roger Clemens.

Hit 200 was a deep homerun to right. Ichiro certainly has a dramatic sense of timing.



pinoy_pac_fan
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 222
Location: Pearl Of The Orient

05 Sep 2007, 4:07 am

Hi guys. I just wanna say i love watching Ichiro too, and even if Im not a big fan of baseball (i like basketball & boxing more) Ichiro makes watching baseball games interesting.

He's got a really quick bat, and he swings it for contact and control. Most batters swing for the fences blindly, with full power so they have less consistent contact with the ball.

and I love his routine at home plate, it looks like he's challenging the pitcher. Mano a mano. Cool as hell. :)



richardbenson
Xfractor Card #351
Xfractor Card #351

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,553
Location: Leave only a footprint behind

06 Sep 2007, 12:36 pm

Yes you got that right my friend, he knows how to contol the hit. im sure he could be a 20+ HR guy but then he wouldnt have as many hits



Sylvius
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 97
Location: Canada

07 Sep 2007, 2:53 pm

Ichrio once promised the team 30 HR in a season if he could have permission to hit only .230 instead of .330.



richardbenson
Xfractor Card #351
Xfractor Card #351

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,553
Location: Leave only a footprint behind

07 Sep 2007, 8:18 pm

word to bigbird. hes already a hofmer, and could get 10 seasons with 200 hits, EASILY. what i wanna know is when he passes willie keeler the year after next if there gonna use special balls uhuhuhh uhhuh uhhuhuh uhhuhuh, you said balls. when he gets 9 seasons with consecutive hits?


_________________
Winds of clarity. a universal understanding come and go, I've seen though the Darkness to understand the bounty of Light


pinoy_pac_fan
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 222
Location: Pearl Of The Orient

22 Sep 2007, 8:59 am

ichiro!
ichiro!
ichiro!


_________________
"One can't complain. I have my friends. Someone spoke to me only yesterday."

-Eeyore


richardbenson
Xfractor Card #351
Xfractor Card #351

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,553
Location: Leave only a footprint behind

23 Sep 2007, 11:18 pm

do you like yao ming pinoy? Image


_________________
Winds of clarity. a universal understanding come and go, I've seen though the Darkness to understand the bounty of Light


pinoy_pac_fan
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 222
Location: Pearl Of The Orient

26 Sep 2007, 8:56 am

I like Yao Ming. He's the most talented and skilled Asian player ever, he's got great basketball fundamentals and agility for someone 7 foot 5. But he's not my favorite NBA player. I love old school players better.

How's the Mariners doing now? I saw bits of their game a couple of days ago versus the Angels(?) and there was a near free-for-all. Vladimir Guerero got a zinger whistle past his ear. :lol:

I hope Seattle does real well this post-season, richardbenson. 8)


_________________
"One can't complain. I have my friends. Someone spoke to me only yesterday."

-Eeyore


richardbenson
Xfractor Card #351
Xfractor Card #351

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,553
Location: Leave only a footprint behind

26 Sep 2007, 6:52 pm

well thanks. the mariners arent doing bad but there not doing good either, i dont really care as i mostley follow individual players in any sport. go figure. right now its ryan howard and adam morrison. since i now have a very HOT morrison rookie my goodness. i also have two yao ming rookie autographed cards. hes gonna tear it up this year dog!!


_________________
Winds of clarity. a universal understanding come and go, I've seen though the Darkness to understand the bounty of Light


Sylvius
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 97
Location: Canada

28 Sep 2007, 5:14 pm

pinoy_pac_fan wrote:
How's the Mariners doing now? I saw bits of their game a couple of days ago versus the Angels(?) and there was a near free-for-all. Vladimir Guerero got a zinger whistle past his ear. :lol:

Good thing Jorge Campillo throws softer than you do.

The Mariners had a team this year that probably should have won about 85 games, and when all is done that's about how many they will have won. They're not going to contend until their GM figures out that he doesn't know how to evaluate pitchers and his park kills right-handed hitters.