Vegetarianism and Harassment

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Well, I think it's disgusting to say that a being is not worth saving if they can't talk our language - I wonder how you feel about severely mentally handicapped humans, for instance?.
Even if death could be painless and free from fear, have we the right to breed animals for our own ends, and kill them, just because they are a different species to us and cannot speak our language?????.
As for mass murderers and child molesters, they are guilty of heinous crimes. However, in my own view it is murder to kill animals for food, and is child molestation to take a Calf (or other baby animal) from it's mother and lock it up in a small dark cell.

I find it so very depressing that I even have to have this conversation - if i had just one wish it would be for the world to be a Vegan World - for the Planet, the Animals, and for Humanity and Compassion.

Please be sure that I don't say what I say for the sake of having an argument, I just care *so* very much about animals - and part of the reason I care so much is that they cannot speak, they are entirely at the mercy of humankind, and that is a very frightening prospect.

Yes.

Humans do have the right to use animals for their own ends because human intellect could one day create a world in which animals need not be slaughtered, where imitation meat which is just as delicious as the real thing is grown on trees or in labs. Humans can use their brain power to create a better world for the other living things. I am not saying this justifies eating animals, but it justifies why the Earth and its resources should be used for the benefit of humanity.

I am sympathetic to the plight of mentally handicapped citizens because, theoretically, we can cure them in their own lifetimes and they could go on to become great scientists or world leaders. Cows still have several million years of evolution to go before they reach our level.

I hate arguments. I am rarely good at winning them. What we are having is a civilized conversation expounding our beliefs. I am sorry this conversation depresses you. Disappointment is a part of life. Heck, I get depressed when I think about who is running my country right now.

I will never believe that humans have the right to kill non-humans for food or any other selfish reason. I'm just about prepared to imagine that it may have been 'necessary' for humans to use other animals for food in years gone by and in certain situations, but, even if it were morally defensible now, there's just no need for it. It has been proven over and over that plant nutrition is superior for human health. Just ask Carl Lewis what Vegans can acheive on plant protein!.

Funny you should mention Carl Lewis. Apparently being a vegan gives him the ability to make horrible music videos: http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2654442

Also, animals are yummy, and I will not stop eating them.

You seem to conveniently overlook my point that countless animals die harvesting wheat to make your bread. Are only the cute and cuddly animals worth saving?

Do principles apply more to cute and cuddly that to others?

I have some sympathy for animals being transported long distances to abbatoirs. I would like to see more farm killed meat. I like eating "free range ducks". Wild ducks that I kill in their natural habitat. Quickly and humanely. I hope you approve of this method of killing over factory bred chickens.

lol! - Thats right up there with 'consumer capitalism can save the environment'

We ALREADY have a world in which animals need not be slaughtered (except by each other)

I never said animals need to be slaughtered. I said I WANT them to be slaughtered.

This quote is from a vegan site:
http://www.veganporn.com/1052280010.html
"Nobody's hands are free from the blood of other animals, not even vegetarians, he concluded. Millions of animals are killed every year, Davis says, to prepare land for growing crops, "like corn, soybean, wheat and barley, the staples of a vegan diet."



I look at beef as concentrated vegetables and grain. Cows eat grass and convert it to protein. Eating cows is just a more efficient way of eating vegetables.

Last edited by blackduck on 18 Aug 2006, 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

If you care about animals, buy a hunting licence. Conservation is a science, not an emotion.

From USA EPA
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-SPECIES ... r-178.html
Comment: Sport-hunting is beneficial to elephant conservation and
local economies. It is small scale, taking less than 1 percent of the
elephant population annually.

Response: The Service has always accepted the premise that sporthunting
of non-endangered, properly managed wildlife populations can be
beneficial to the survival of the population.

Please do not patronise me, black duck, I have lived on a shooting estate. If people absolutely feel they have to eat dead bodies then, yes, I would rather the animal be 'free ranging' first, but as there is no need for eating dead bodies, I just find it selfish and speciesist. Animals are not 'food' to me - period.

Secondly, obviously animals are killed in the harvesting of cereal, etc - and obviously I wish with all my heart that this were not the case. I grow as much food as I can at home, organically, and if more people did the same this would help with many problems worldwide. I care about all creatures, I will not kill insects, so, no of course it's not just the cute ones that matter to me (or most vegans). The point of veganism is 'least harm' - so less creatures are harmed by our lifestyle then by meat-eating - obviously.

Of course Beef is not a more efficient way of eating vegetables, either, black duck - that's just silly talk. How do you think cows get their nutrients?????. If you look up the statistics, there is more concentrated protein in beans than there is in Beef, and they take a fraction of the worlds resources to grow, compared to producing meat.

Lastly, as for shooting being a form of conservation - there really is nothing I can say to this because it's just a line trotted out by those individuals who enjoy blasting non-human animals in the head with a gun.............I think it's comparable to the 'big car small dick' thing.

Just for the record, I was born/raised in a very rural farming/fishing/hunting community. I have in fact hunted, fished and eaten meat myself. I can even see why people enjoy these pursuits because I love being outdoors.

I make it my policy to speak only of things which I know something about, from PERSONAL experience, so you'll never, ever convince me that my beliefs are wrong. Experiencing the above is all part of how I made my decision to lead as cruelty-free a life as I possibly can, though of course imperfection is all part of being human, sadly .

I gave up meat almost 20 years ago, have been vegan for nearly 7 of those years, and am raising my son as a vegan. I do all I can to actively help animals, for instance I have run an animal shelter for a few years, fundraised for animal charities, etc. I realise I will never change everyone's minds but I feel the need to do what I can to help animals, which includes almost getting punched out by a large man recently when I called him for kicking his dog .

If anyone is interested in vegetarianism, I urge you to go to the 'P.E.T.A' site, and preferably watch their 'Meet Your Meat' DVD. If you still feel nothing for that corpse on your plate then there's nothing more I can do!.

I think I've wasted enough time arguing here. It's essentially a good site, but there's too much suicide and sex talk for me to want to urge my Asperger son (9 y.o) to keep visiting (that was our original intention on joining here) so I think I'll go and do something perhaps a little more constructive!.

To get back on track ....
I hate vegans because they are fanatical zealots who want to force their ideas, based on emotion not logic, over other people. PETA (and many vegans) are no better than terrorists:
QUOTE: Amidst the dozens of animal rights organizations, PETA occupies the niche of -- in Newkirk's own words -- "complete press sluts." Endlessly seeking media exposure, PETA sends out dozens of press releases every week.

In the past, PETA has handled the press for the Animal Liberation Front (ALF), a violent, underground group of fanatics who plant firebombs in restaurants, destroy butcher shops, and torch research labs. The FBI considers ALF among America's most active and prolific terrorist groups, but PETA compares it to the Underground Railroad and the French Resistance. END QUOTE.

How can you think it is morally wrong to eat free range unfertilised eggs from chickens kept as pets in my own back yard. That's what veganism says. How can you say meat is murder and milk is rape. I say again, you obviously have not seen dairy cows being milked. They are the most pampered contented farm animals I know.

Your mind is closed. I do not find it unsettling that you are an anthropomorphist. I find it unsettleing that you support PETA and therefore the ALF which is a terrorist organisation.

What utter nonsense (but I'm glad you show your true colours!!).

I disagree with eating eggs because they are not *your* eggs to decide about. Also, do you know what happens to all the unwanted male chicks when you buy those hens to lay for you in your back yard??. Yes, they are minced alive.

Cows, pampered?. You must live in story book land. Yes, I have seen Cows being milked - where I live, I can also hear their cries when their calves are taken from them a few days after they are born, it is very distressing. You are lying to yourself to absolve yourself of guilt.

As for terrorism - well, the real terrorists are the ones out there now, abusing animals en masse to satisfy the selfich wonts of inhumane people like you.

So I am the terrorist, and therefore a fair target for ALF bombing?

Possibly dairying in Scotland is different from here. Australian cows are never kept in barns or similar. On the farm I stayed on, cows were kep adjacent to their calves and did not cry out. Calves are not taken a few days after being born, thay are taken on day 2.

Cows did not need to be hearded for milking, they come willingly. They enjoyed being milked. A contented animal is a productive animal.

Are there no circumstances when animals are well cared for that their produce is acceptible to use?

To me, no, there are no circumstances where it would feel morally 'right' to use an animal for any purpose, be it entertainment, food, or experimentation, etc. It has taken me years to come to this conclusion - even when I was first a vegan I still thought many were way too extreme. Now I just see it this way - that we have no right to 'make use' of animals, period. I don't even feel happy about keeping 'pets' now, though I still have some that were cast out by other people so they needed a home.

You say that calves are kept near the Cows - but only for 2 days. The Cows do get upset when the Calves are then taken, and also the other point is - what then happens to the calves?. It's unnatural for a calf not to be suckled by it's mother til natural weaning occurs, you must see my point here?.

I never said that you, or anyone else was a legitimate ALF target, I actually only 'promoted' PETA here because they do have some good information, DVDs, etc. Personally I financially support VIVA! and The Vegan Society, and I endorse their methods 100%. Having said that, whilst I cannot condone violence, I would not condemn the liberation of animals from inhumane conditions, either. As you are obviously quite a thoughtful person (as even though you claim to hate Vegans you are prepared to consider what I'm saying) I would not think that you would be deliberately cruel, I just take the view that animals are not here for our 'use'.