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philosopherBoi
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07 Aug 2008, 4:52 pm

This is scary as hell, and you know i went and took at look just now at some of the foods I eat and almost all had aspartame that is even scarier than the fluoride.



LeKiwi
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07 Aug 2008, 5:30 pm

Throw them out, find alternatives!! It's in so much stuff and it's so horrible, blech. MSG is awful as well, and it gets listed under about 20 different names! (www.msgmyth.com/hidename.htm is a list).


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thefej
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12 Aug 2008, 4:58 am

Holy Horse puckey! I am from Colorado! I must die a horrible death! Flouride in the water! I am doomed! Wait, what if flouride occurs naturally in the water? The first discovery of flouride in the water was made by an east-coast (US) dentist in Colorado Springs. Floride in the water is very common in Colorado (Nebraska and Wyoming as well)! Wow, one of the things that this Dentist noticed was a low cancer rate and very healthy, albeit blue teeth, as well as healthy mouths. I have never had a cavity or gum disease! So what are you saying? nature is wrong? I will admit, the governments can chose the wrong source, but a popular vote can correct it.



LeKiwi
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12 Aug 2008, 2:09 pm

What are the levels in the water where you are? Generally it's a lot lower than artificially fluoridated water, and more to the point, it's not toxic industrial waste being dumped in it.

Also, one person saying "Omgz I have fluoride and no cavities" doesn't mean a thing. Sorry. I've never used fluoride in my water or in toothpaste or anything else, and I also have no cavities.


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psych
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12 Aug 2008, 4:36 pm

Its also a different substance. 'natural' fluoride will be mostly present as calcium fluoride, this is not what they put in the water.

Ironically as calcium is actually good for dental health.



dtoxic
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14 Aug 2008, 1:27 am

LeKiwi wrote:
Well said, LoveableNerd.

And dtoxic, please don't dismiss this with the usual "Even water can be toxic..." etc line. It's old, it's boring, and it bears no relevence to the discussion at hand, which is that an extremely potent neurotoxin with well-known, long documented effects on the chemistry of the human body (and environment at large) is being dumped in our drinking water without our permission, and causing major harm to millions of people around the world, without their consent and often without their realising it.


I did not dismiss fluoride worries. I will quote myself:
"I am all for reexamining the acceptable dose size if there is credible new information about fluoride toxicology. But the conspiracy theories (involving fluoride) are garbage."

Dosage size is absolutely relevant to the topic at hand. Do you have any chemistry or medical training?

As for someone saying "fluoride" does not exist outside of its parent compound, that is not quite true. If a parent fluoride compound (stannous fluoride, sodium fluoride) dissolves in water to any extent (solubility varies by compound), the result will be fluoride ions, which have nothing attached to them save an extra electron, the one that elemental fluorine lacks. So there is such a thing as "fluoride" in solution, and that solution is what is being discussed here (fluoridated water, or the solution of fluoridated toothpaste in one's mouth which is essentially the same thing).

To LeKiwi: I believe your emotional stance on this topic has led you to dismiss me as pro-fluoride, which I am not. I am a scientist and I am curious about the truth of fluoride toxicology. I know for a fact it is toxic in high doses. I know that overheated Teflon pans give off a gas that is highly toxic to birds. I do not yet know for a fact that it is toxic in chronic low doses, such as fluoridated water. I want to see more unbiased research. It would not surprise me to learn that fluoridating water was another shortsighted move by people who did inadequate research on its long-term effects. I also don't trust DuPont or any other corporation (or the US FDA, which is virtually owned by corporations) to be telling the truth about the toxicity of their products.
Again, as a scientist, I mistrust propaganda on both sides of this issue. I want to hear from scientists with cooler heads who have done professional quality research whose funding cannot be traced to anyone with a stake in the outcome. Which is very difficult information to come by.

Out of curiosity, I have recently switched to a non-fluoride toothpaste, which I will continue with for maybe a year, to see if I notice any symptomatic changes that have been mentioned. But it might not be enough to effect a change as my water is probably fluoridated and I drink a lot of black tea which is high in fluoride.



LeKiwi
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14 Aug 2008, 2:32 am

Sorry, I just get sick of people bandying the words 'conspiracy theory' around to try and discredit other people's arguments and theories... it's an emotionally loaded term that to me just points to the person using it as being very lazy. ;)

Anyway, with that aside, I can see your point as there is a lot of propaganda from both sides, and some of the anti-fluoridation websites are pretty amateurish at best. But to me, I've seen enough research and enough studies to show it's not in any way good for you. A lot of that was from when they wanted to introduce it to my town, so I started reading more about it, and realised how bad for your thyroid it is (something I have to be careful of). Then I kept reading more...

As for toothpaste, it's mostly topical application so if you don't swallow you probably won't get too high a dosage (though the mouth absorbs around 10x more than the rest of the body, hence why homeopathics are taken orally and held in the mouth). Though as far as I'm aware tooth decay is caused primarily by the bacteria in your mouth and the high acid content of a lot of our modern foods, not by lack of fluoride. Again, I've never used fluoride toothpaste or had fluoridated water and my teeth are fine, no holes.

Then you have the ethical issues - simply put, I don't want to drink fluoride. Surely it's my decision what I put in my body, especially for medicinal purposes? Why should the water board or council or government force me to take it when I don't want to and I believe it will cause me harm? Surely their resources would be better spent on making dental care more affordable or handing out free toothbrushes to those who want/need them?


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Anubis
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14 Aug 2008, 4:02 am

Agreed. Fluoride is nasty stuff, and people should be able to choose what they consume anyway. Aspartame's just as bad, yet drinks companies use it as an alternative to sugar. I can't even taste the stuff, which puts me off aspartame-containing drinks anyway.
Whatever they're using it for... it's not good.


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