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littlelily613
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24 May 2011, 9:17 pm

twix wrote:
Perhaps you could explain why I score so high on AS screening tests then?


Were you diagnosed with AS? You could have both, or you could have AS-like symptoms but really have ADHD. People taking online screening tests may not distinguish between AS and ADHD symptoms that are similar (they may appear to be one or another, but they do not understand the roots of each syndrome to know for sure which one they have.) This does happen. I knew someone who was certain he had AS. Turns out he has severe ADHD. The psych explained why to him, and then this person understood how he misunderstood his own symptoms for AS. It is possible to have both though.



littlelily613
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24 May 2011, 9:23 pm

Chronos wrote:
There is no overlap. ADD/ADHD and AS are as different as strawberries and magnolias.

Anyone who thinks they are similar does not have a firm grasp on either.



I live with both on a daily basis (I have severe HFA with no ADHD, my niece who lives with me has severe ADHD with no ASD.) I know from experience that they do not overlap and that she and I are very different. There are some symptoms that do appear similar on the SURFACE though, but are very different when you look at the causes. For the record, my niece and I do not have the same characteristics, but I can see how some people who only know the basics see similarities between SOME of the symptoms of ADHD and AS (without scratching the surface to see these symptoms in depth.)



littlelily613
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24 May 2011, 9:27 pm

And for the record: I know there is some discussion about whether or not to consider ADHD as part of the autistic spectrum. I think even the psychologists considering this are making a big mistake. While there might be some differences in a person with Aspergers and a person with classic autism, the differences are not really that noteable. The roots of the symptoms are all the same, people just experience them at different severity levels regardless of their ASD label. ADHD is not autistic-like. It is not NT, that is for sure, but it still, IMO, should not be grouped with autism. Having a lot of ADHD family members, and a couple possible autistic family members (plus me who is the only one officially diagnosed with it), there is DEFINITELY a large difference between the two. There is a mild or moderate ADHD in my family, and a few members with severe ADHD. None of them resemble at all the autistic spectrum disorders.



twix
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25 May 2011, 11:16 am

I have ADHD and AS family members too. I do seem to have some of both, and I am waiting for further assessment for the AS side. I know the screening tests are not the be all and end all, but mine was quite different to a number of others done by ADHD people.

I think the fact that both run in the same family is very typical in my experience suggests that although different in many ways they are likely linked.

I don't know if I have both or not, I joined here to explore the possibility further. I do think, from what I have read so far, that I could be AS.



WilliamWDelaney
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26 May 2011, 12:46 pm

Chronos wrote:
Moog wrote:
Chronos wrote:
There is no overlap. ADD/ADHD and AS are as different as strawberries and magnolias.

Anyone who thinks they are similar does not have a firm grasp on either.


Hmm, Asperger's is a cluster of stuff. Personally, I find them confusing.

Do you exclude ADD type effects from the core of aspie traits? Inattention, poor concentration, executive dysfunction (I'm not even sure where that goes)


Those aren't AS related traits. If a large number of people with diagnosed AS now express such traits, it's simply due to sloppy diagnosing and the tendency to label all difficult little boys as having AS, much as it used to be the practice in the 90's to label them as having ADHD.


Moog wrote:
What about sensory processing problems, is that aspie, ADD, or something separate?


There are various different types of processing deficits and they cannot be lumped into one category. While processing issues may underly many ASD's and some may mimic ADD, they can also be stand alone, and in the case of a sensory processing disorder mimicking ADD, it should be noted that it isn't actually ADD in that the person doesn't actually have an issue paying attention to things, but the person is unable to process relevant information in an efficient and productive way despite focused attention to it.

Moog wrote:
If you wouldn't mind delineating them properly for me, that would be great.


I did not mind at all. I hope you found it helpful.

On a side note, as a person with OCD, I used to take note of how many "professionals" loved to tell me that OCD was a spectrum and everyone had their little "OCD traits" as if OCD was merely an amplification of such things and within everyone was the fluidity to shift spontaneously or with the right behavioral influences from quirk to clinical disorder. I suppose this was partially a misplaced attempt to make me feel like I wasn't so different (as if I cared or had any need to not be different). They loved to consider Tourette's Syndrome as part of that "OCD spectrum" and a frightening number of "professionals" only understood OCD for what they could perceive externally and would diagnose people as having mild cases of OCD based what were actually obsessions, compulsions, of an entirely different pychopathology of OCD.

What is becoming more clear, however, is that OCD and Tourette's Syndrome, while similar, and sometimes co-morbid, have very definite boundaries in that genes have no been identified that correlate with Tourette's Syndrome that don't correlate with OCD and most people with OCD never developed Tourette's Syndrome despite the severity of their disorder nor the broadness of their symptoms. So much of this proposed spectruming was only superficial or assumed or imagined or inferred from poor understandings on the part of the professionals.

In the few cases where OCD and TS is actually co-morbid within an individual it's possible the person inherited genes for both, or one, or acquired both or the other through some physical damage to the brain such as infection, autoimmune response or accident or surgery induced trauma.

Research is currently underway to find genes responsible for OCD.

I conclude, most of this supposed spectruming is human sloppyness.
Okay, I was annoyed with your original broad statement, but now I can see better where you are coming from. Therefore, I'll just offer my own slant on the subject instead of focusing on refutation.

I tend to prefer focusing on the absolute physiology of the brain, both at the macroscopic and molecular levels. I see genes such as say the taql allele for the D2 receptors as important etiological factors, but it is more important from my point of view to understand what exactly they do.

Now, when I talk about autism or Tourette Syndrome, I talk with the understanding that we are grouping people together based on superficially observable symptoms. Consequentially, it would be tenable for a form of Tourette Syndrome to have a closer etiological relationship with autism or for a form of autism to be more etiologically related to a form of bipolar disorder. This does not necessarily have to be the case, but I am just pointing out the fact that the disorder and the underlying causes behind it are somewhat different things, and this is important for communicating some of my views on this subject.

I also think that you can have the gene that could cause a certain disorder and have it remain altogether latent. For example, a person who has the short gene for the serotonin transporter might also have a high level of post-synaptic serotonin uptake, or his or her cholinergic system might help to compensate for the rampant overcoding of this transporter gene.

Well, what if your post-synaptic dopamine uptake, at certain sites, is a bit higher than normal? Well, that doesn't necessarily have to result in a disorder. However, if you were to combine this with unusually high levels of dopamine betahydroxylase, thereby higher catecholamine levels in general, you might start to see some issues cropping up. If you start throwing crazy things like a turbo-charged glutamatergic system into the mix, you're just asking for trouble.

And the thing is, these various factors are all contributors to the health of different parts of the brain. People suffering from both autism and clinical depression tend to suffer from poor development in the hippocampus, for example, and this ties in with a lot of the symptoms related to these disorders. However, autism and clinical depression are altogether different, aren't they? Of course, but only because there are other systems in the brain that are affected in these disorders, the hippocampus being one of several.

One major source of trouble is an underdeveloped myelin sheath around certain axons. These axons will still transmit their signals but in a sloppy, chaotic manner akin to an exposed circuit.

Therefore, when you take in the underlying physiology behind these disorders, it's easy to see why it would be difficult to disentangle them from each other. Because the same parts of the brain are often being affected in similar ways, sometimes the symptoms of one disorder might mimic another so successfully that the real underlying disorder may remain undiscovered as a result. A person suffering from a form of Tourette Syndrome that superficially mimics bipolar disorder might spend years taking drugs targeted at treating a mental illness that he or she does not actually have in its true form. The real answer seems to be, to put it simply, "it's complicated."



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26 May 2011, 2:03 pm

Dark_Lord_2008 wrote:
Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder(ADD/ADHD) is associated hyperactivity and an inability to concentrate on set tasks, behavioural problems due to a lack of discipline. It is easier to give a child a label some pills to calm them down than to discipline the child and teach them the child the difference between right and wrong. ADD is a cop out for lazy parenting and it can be outgrown as the child grows up. It is politically incorrect to discipline a child and teach him/her the difference from right and wrong. Big pharmaceuticals and medical professional make a fortune out of diagnosing and prescribing medication to treat ADD/ADHD.


I have ADHD as well as High Functioning Autism and severe Anxiety. I find this a bit offensive because my parents TRIED to discpline me for behaviors I did due to ADHD or Autism as well but it didn't do any good. Some people actually do have ADHD and its very hard for them to function well without help.

I am on medication now and it does manage some things but not all of what I go through.


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26 May 2011, 6:55 pm

Dark_Lord_2008 wrote:
Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder(ADD/ADHD) is associated hyperactivity and an inability to concentrate on set tasks, behavioural problems due to a lack of discipline.


Wrong.

Quote:
It is easier to give a child a label some pills to calm them down than to discipline the child and teach them the child the difference between right and wrong.


Wrong.

Quote:
ADD is a cop out for lazy parenting and it can be outgrown as the child grows up. It is politically incorrect to discipline a child and teach him/her the difference from right and wrong.


WRONG. For christ's sake, this garbage is spread around too much as it is. Please talk to someone who actually has ADHD/ADD before mouthing off about it.

Quote:
Big pharmaceuticals and medical professional make a fortune out of diagnosing and prescribing medication to treat ADD/ADHD.


...correct :lol:


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26 May 2011, 7:01 pm

To the OP - it's possible you have both, but nothing that I read particularly suggested AS (AS isn't a personality type - a.k.a. shyness). If you enjoy being alone more than socializing, and that's all there is to it, it's possible you're just an introverted person (or perhaps if it's quite severe you could have some sort of social anxiety disorder). If you find being around people exhausting, due to having to either maintain an elaborate and complicated social facade, or your real self inadvertently offends people/causes people to bully you because you can't read social cues or provide correct social responses, then this is a lot more telling. Could you provide some more information?


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Namekujisan
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07 Jun 2011, 9:51 am

Mdyar wrote:
Quote:
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
ADHD is basically an executive dysfunction causing severe problems in social interactions. Given the intricate relationship between EF and ToM development, children with ADHD fail in some tests of ToM and display impairments involving emotion, face and prosody perception, and reduced empathy (69). It is likely that it is their impulsivity and lack of ability to focus attention, and the behavioral problems that these give rise to, that hinder ToM development in children with ADHD (83).

To a large extent, the human infant is socialized through the acquisition of a specific cognitive mechanism known as theory of mind (ToM), a term which is currently used to explain a related set of intellectual abilities that enable us to understand that others have beliefs, desires, plans, hopes, information, and intentions that may differ from our own. Various neurodevelopmental disorders, such as autism spectrum disorders, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, developmental language disorders, and schizophrenia, as well as acquired disorders of the right brain (and traumatic brain injury) impair ToM. ToM is a composite function, which involves memory, joint attention, complex perceptual recognition (such as face and gaze processing), language, executive functions (such as tracking of intentions and goals and moral reasoning), emotion processing-recognition, empathy, and imitation. Hence, ToM development is dependent on the maturation of several brain systems and is shaped by parenting, social relations, training, and education; thus, it is an example of the dense interaction that occurs between brain development and (social) environment.
Abbreviations: ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
ASD, autism spectrum disorder
EF, executive functions
MPFC, medial prefrontal cortex
ToM, theory of mind




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Listening Problems
>People with ADD often have poor eye contact--darting eyes<, which can convey disinterest, distrust, or a lack of caring. They tend to listen selectively to the parts of a conversation that interest them, and tune out the rest. They tend to spend a lot of time in their head forming a reply. An idea may come to them when someone is speaking, yet they can't hold onto that idea and listen at the same time, so they have a need to interrupt and blurt their thought out. They have a tendency to judge on little information, to stereotype and label. They often don't receive information objectively, and have a problem with the executive function of brain which involves separating emotion from information. They have a tendency to listen defensively, judging the speaker and judging themselves as inadequate. This distracts them and may cause them to appear insincere They may nod in agreement but have actually lost attention and feel bored.
They may be dishonest in their communication because they feel beleaguered by people, especially by a partner, such as a spouse, and may agree to anything just to get that person off their back. They sometimes fabricate a response because they feel humiliated at having forgotten something that was said.


Social cues
Another symptom of ADD is a difficulty reading social cues. The ADD mind, and sometimes the body, typically goes too fast to pay attention to the facial expressions and body language of others. That's also true for the listener: their mind goes too fast that they don't pay attention to the tone of voice, facial expressions, or body language of the speaker. Both miss a lot of social information and so the delay and the slowing down is helpful in improving the reading of social cues.


Some of the things that personally affected me that led me to believe of an ASD.


I too believe i have an ASD but feel the above may be more fitting of my problems too.

Good post :D



E27
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07 Jun 2011, 12:00 pm

I used to think what I have is add and I still have a lot of the symtems of add.

This is a artical I read that talks about how aspergers is similar and different from add.

http://www.yourlittleprofessor.com/adhd.html



catlover02
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07 Jun 2011, 3:58 pm

I have both Asperger's Syndrome and ADHD.



Iame
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07 Jun 2011, 6:41 pm

Chronos wrote:
I don't see where the confusion is. ADD is attention deficit disorder. People with ADD have a difficult time paying attention to tasks and getting them done.

AS has nothing to do with ADD.


I wouldn't say that exactly. My family thought I had Autism for years up until recently I was diagnosed with ADHD, but still family kept saying Autism. I asked the psych and he explained that alot of the symptomes in both ADHD and Autism or AS overlap. They are not entirely different things but the one main distinguishiing feature is that people with ADHD can read people, can understand them where as alot of people with AS or Autism cannot! So yes, they are different on one very particular way, but the rest is very, very similar!

People with ADHD dont just have problems paying attention. They can 'hyperfocus' much like people with Autism or AS can do with specific interests. I also walked on my tiptoes for many years and have pretty severely damaged feet because of it. I was told that it is because I hav SPD too which can come along with ADHD and Autism or AS too, this is also where things overlap again. Certain noises, certain lights, too many people and I will try and get away from t all as quick as my legs will go.

Us ADHDers can also have problems with routines and changes, obssessions and impulses aswel as the things I mention above which are only the tip of the iceberg as I'm sure you are aware. In some people with ADHD some of these things aren't an issue, and with some of us they are and it confuses those around you. Of course you can also get AS with ADHD too, just as you can with things like TS. Lots of my impulses and obssessions are very much like TS and or OCD in alot of ways too.

It's all so very confusing isn't it, but they way I was told recently was that to tell ADHD from Autism or AS is the being able to read other people or not. Hope this helps.



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07 Jun 2011, 8:06 pm

SPKx wrote:
I'm diagnosed with both.


Me too.


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DoriansMom
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08 Jun 2011, 10:35 pm

as a parent to a young child(he is 6) I have always felt in my gut that ADHD is usualy a symptom of something else going on and not necessarily a condition all on its own.

I truly feel if you do some searching and go with your gut feeling on what you truly have you will come to the conclusion on your own. And honestly, if you are ok with who you are and you can function in life I see no reason to place a label on yourself.
My son has ASD and he is very social, always wanting to be with his friends but it is very awkward and he says the wrong things, does the wrong things. Thankfully he still doesn't notice the reactions of others.


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Dark_Lord_2008
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09 Jun 2011, 12:23 am

ADD regards to hyoperactive children/adults who find it difficult to concentrate and engage in inappropriate/anti-social behaviour. Naughty children can be wrongly diagnosed with ADD.

Aspergers are Autistics that can talk. Half Autistic and half normal. Autistics generally can not talk and have delays in personal development and possess limited social skills.