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Jellybean
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31 Dec 2014, 4:14 pm

I got labelled with BPD when I was 18. I am diagnosed with autism (not quite Aspie). I used to cut myself when I was stressed but that was because someone told me it would make me feel better. I tried it and it did. It releases endorphins. It has nothing to do with wanting attention for me. The doctors have finally accepted I don't have BPD as I have never had a relationship (so no promiscuity), I no longer self harm in any way, I've never smoked, drunk alcohol or taken illegal drugs, I don't care if people just vanish from my life (apart from the fact that it is change, I do not fear people leaving) and I don't take many risks (heck, I won't cross on the red man!). The things that do fit with BPD also fit with my other diagnoses of autism, Tourettes, ADHD and OCD. I have seen a tendency to label young women with ASDs with Borderline, I think it is just an easy label compared to figuring out the jigsaw of the individual.


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Gizalba
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24 Jan 2015, 12:14 pm

Thanks so much for all of these replies by the way! They are very much appreciated and helpful. I have read every one but got overwhelmed as for some of them I wanted to give a longer reply or some sympathy for what some of you have gone through, but couldn't decide on the words, then felt more guilty as time passed and ended up failing to reply at all.


EDIT: Thought I'd give an update: I was finally given 5 sessions with a psychologist, who has questioned me in detail. Her conclusion was that I do not have BPD. I wanted to shout 'THANKYOU!', but managed to maintain what I hoped was an indifferent expression :P. I am so relieved, because I was starting to wonder whether I was in denial about the supposed BPD symptoms psychiatrists insisted I had. This psychologist said I probably have obsessive compulsive personality disorder. Even though that disorder doesn't seem to explain all of my symptoms, whereas ASD does (in my opinion), I feel like at least the people treating me now are more on the right track in understanding why I get so distressed.



mpe
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24 Jan 2015, 1:50 pm

alexi wrote:
But despite being diagnosed with aspergers, as soon as I see a psychiatrist (who generally seem to know VERY little about ASDs), as soon as they hear about the self harm (and being female) they straight away jump to borderline again!

Do they know rather more about BPD? In other words could this be psychiatrists going with what they know. Even trying to fit the symptoms to the (bogus) conclusion they have jumped to. I recall another threat about Autistic Spectrum people being mistakenly identified as "abused".
I suspect some autistic behaviours, even coping skills, can confuse "medical professionals". Especially psychiatrists. Whereas psychologists don't tend to be interested in deciding someone is "ill" or not.



zigziglar
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30 Jan 2015, 5:06 pm

BPD is widely misunderstood and because it isn't recognised as a psychiatric disorder, a misdiagnosis doesnt carry as much weight.

To me, even a high functioning Borderline is easily recognisable. The assessment criteria are clear and the behaviors manifest in an obvious manner. It would require ignorance for a professional to misdiagnose and I don't think it should be acceptable in the 21st century.

Be careful with self diagnosis as it is a borderline hallmark to be incapable of objective self analysis.

I have only met one borderline who had the self awareness to identify their BPD flaws and the open mindedness to explore their own role in it.

Discussing a potential diagnosis of BPD with the individual in question in a forum is a bad idea as they are likely to sabotage or manipulate the presentation of symptoms etc. to support their emotional agenda.

For this reason I think it is impossible to provide any certainty as the accuracy of the information cannot be determined.

A couple of questions though.. do you ever talk to or text etc. a friend and then over analyse the conversation and begin to worry about whether or not you've made a fool of yourself? Or do you quickly jump to conclusions about how others think of you, then begin judging them even before they have actually done anything to incriminate themselves?

Cheers



Waterfalls
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30 Jan 2015, 6:50 pm

zigziglar wrote:
A couple of questions though.. do you ever talk to or text etc. a friend and then over analyse the conversation and begin to worry about whether or not you've made a fool of yourself? Or do you quickly jump to conclusions about how others think of you, then begin judging them even before they have actually done anything to incriminate themselves?

Cheers

People who need to bully anyone who is different, or are just uncomfortable, may say one is a fool and get angry with what seems little or no warning. So I'm not sure whether if I worry about making a fool of myself and watch for negativity that means I'm borderline or autistic by your definition.

Calling and treating me like a fool has been a common theme by some in my life, and I can understand that I don't communicate with the ease and skill many expect.

We all want what we want and we all may have an impact on others. Difference to me in a nutshell is borderline people want to manipulate, or its second nature. People with autism alone and no comorbid condition that involves manipulation don't try to manipulate others. Others may feel manipulated by people who are borderline and people who are autistic, but mix them up and act like someone borderline is autistic or vice versa and get nowhere good.



zigziglar
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30 Jan 2015, 7:34 pm

Waterfalls wrote:
zigziglar wrote:
A couple of questions though.. do you ever talk to or text etc. a friend and then over analyse the conversation and begin to worry about whether or not you've made a fool of yourself? Or do you quickly jump to conclusions about how others think of you, then begin judging them even before they have actually done anything to incriminate themselves?

Cheers

People who need to bully anyone who is different, or are just uncomfortable, may say one is a fool and get angry with what seems little or no warning. So I'm not sure whether if I worry about making a fool of myself and watch for negativity that means I'm borderline or autistic by your definition.

Calling and treating me like a fool has been a common theme by some in my life, and I can understand that I don't communicate with the ease and skill many expect.

We all want what we want and we all may have an impact on others. Difference to me in a nutshell is borderline people want to manipulate, or its second nature. People with autism alone and no comorbid condition that involves manipulation don't try to manipulate others. Others may feel manipulated by people who are borderline and people who are autistic, but mix them up and act like someone borderline is autistic or vice versa and get nowhere good.


Hi! I get what you are saying. Bullies and intolerant people in general are a whole different issue. What I'm referring to is more of a social paranoia. Being worried by every little action or comment by close friends and finding cause for concern where others just see a normal friendly chat. Or becoming angry or hostile towards others based purely on assumptions and hypotheses about their judgements on us.

These kinds of things are typical borderline projections of self contempt onto others.



zigziglar
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30 Jan 2015, 7:50 pm

Mirroring is another borderline thing I don't see in ASD individuals. I suppose we could interpret mirroring as manipulative as it involves changing behaviours and often bending the truth so that the BPD appears more like someone they think the other person will like.

By the way, seeing as we don't know each other, it might help to know where I'm coming from. I'm married with two boys under 4. My wife is a nearly recovered borderline who still suffers from CPTSD, OCD, and BiPolar as well as extreme PMT. We have a really good relationship now, but have both been through a lot of turmoil.

I've been a part of support groups and spoken at length with many BPD sufferers ovrer the years.

Beyond that, there are a lot of ASD children in my extended family and I've worked as a school support worker for children with Autism. My mother still does that work today despite being of retirement age.

I am not judging anyone here. Just sharing my observations from my experiences.

Now my oldest son has been disgnosed with oppositional defiance disorder and ASD, so the educational journey starts again. I can see a lot of ASD traits in myself. I also have misophonia and misokinesia.



Waterfalls
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30 Jan 2015, 7:59 pm

I think you're talking about more people worrying what others think over the issue of what others think, where I worry over the negative consequences that can occur (hurtful behavior, no friends, being always and constantly alone, bullying, assault, losing job) when I'm not careful as I can be. And sometimes even when I am.

It's just, the need for vigilance over, for example, eye contact FEELS like I'm being (and need to be) paranoid, to me.



zigziglar
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30 Jan 2015, 8:50 pm

Waterfalls wrote:
I think you're talking about more people worrying what others think over the issue of what others think, where I worry over the negative consequences that can occur (hurtful behavior, no friends, being always and constantly alone, bullying, assault, losing job) when I'm not careful as I can be. And sometimes even when I am.

It's just, the need for vigilance over, for example, eye contact FEELS like I'm being (and need to be) paranoid, to me.


I know what you mean. Your line of thinking is definitely not BPD in that regard.

I personally don't mind eye contact unless it's during a conflict with someone who intimidates me. That being said, I am definitely always consciously aware of how frequently and for how long eye contact is being maintained and I notice that most people break eye contact quite a lot, so I try to match who I'm talking with while still mainting a degree of randonness lol Who knows what that makes me. I tend to overanalyse everything, but at the same time not much phases me.



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30 Jan 2015, 10:10 pm

What do you see as the difference between mirroring in people with BPD and whatever you would call what we are all supposed to do where we modify our behavior to make others comfortable or happy. Stuff like that is really important. I'm a mom, one of the things I want for my kids, which I think we all do, is to learn how to behave with teachers, and later bosses, because, well, the boss is always right, unless what he or she wants is illegal or unbearably violates your ethics. We don't want our kids arguing rules with the teacher, we want them to comply most of the time and be able to let some stuff go. And we consciously teach this because it's hard going through life guessing.

I'm probably being too concrete about this.



zigziglar
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01 Feb 2015, 5:52 pm

You raise some interesting points. I think there are a lot of commonalities between BPD mirroring and any other person trying to fit in or ensure they don't rub people up the wrong way. In fact, I daresay that in a lot of cases the underlying purpose of mirroring is the same. It's only really the extent that one takes it to and the frequency that makes the difference obvious.

If someone changes their behaviour from casual around their peers to more well mannered and formal around dignitaries, we see that as ideal social behaviour. If someone changes their voice (their accent, their volume, their articulations), their personality (say from shy and reserved to outspoken and bubbly), embellishes or flat out lies about themselves (their career, their achievements, where they're from etc.), now we are starting to see what we would interpret as manipulative behaviour, right? All trademarks of BPD mirroring and all linked to lacking a definite image of self. They automatically assume no one would like whoever it is they actually are, so they simply present themselves as whoever they think will be liked.

The emotional impact of being rejected or not liked is so crippling to a BPD that they can collapse into a deep depression of self loathing. The motivation is self preservation. Is it really manipulative? You could write a thesis arguing either side I think.

A child with ASD (and this something I'm still learning about), is most likely going to need to have this absurd concept of altering the way they present themselves depending on who they're talking to explained to them in their own language, whereas others may just pick it up through observation and learn to do it without ever talking about it with any one. In contrast, an analogy for BPD is say a street kid who has learnt how to pick pocket, steal fruit and pull off the most convincing puppy eyes in order to survive. If they were taken in and shown unconditional love and nurture and given all the things they have been manipulating others for since they ended up in the street, we could expect a change in their behaviour, but it wouldn't disappear overnight ...


Waterfalls wrote:
What do you see as the difference between mirroring in people with BPD and whatever you would call what we are all supposed to do where we modify our behavior to make others comfortable or happy. Stuff like that is really important. I'm a mom, one of the things I want for my kids, which I think we all do, is to learn how to behave with teachers, and later bosses, because, well, the boss is always right, unless what he or she wants is illegal or unbearably violates your ethics. We don't want our kids arguing rules with the teacher, we want them to comply most of the time and be able to let some stuff go. And we consciously teach this because it's hard going through life guessing.

I'm probably being too concrete about this.



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01 Feb 2015, 7:36 pm

I guess it's no wonder people can mix up ASD and BPD. I think it's the need to have things explained that may be the difference. Though I'm not sure anyone told me to change the way I talked, just in my teens, one day I realized I sounded different from others, like a book, and I wanted to change that. I think it was when I was preparing myself for a college interview, and I read and understood I needed to try to do things a way that could help me achieve my goal of going to college and not get in the way. I consciously changed the way I spoke, but I suppose doing that based on recommendations for how to be interviewed isn't really the change you're talking about that people with BPD do. Though when I was younger I'd sometimes try on accents. I now try to accomplish the singing tone I hear others use, that people seem to like, and I'm trying not to have my voice be flat, which is how I would be naturally. And I'm trying to do that to please others. Because I think within reason, I want to keep people comfortable and not make them dislike me over things I don't think are important. It's hard, though, always worrying.

One thing that's very different, though---I consciously try to copy at times (including scripts people suggest, and sometimes I ask for, as they're helpful) but it took me long time to learn to lie. I can choose to a bit if it seems important for me or for others, but lying never comes easily for me. Never.



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01 Feb 2015, 7:45 pm

I bet you're doing better than you're think you're doing.

I always thought my voice really sucked until I heard myself on tape recently. I realized then that I actually sound okay.

Maybe, if you listen to yourself on tape, you might a better impression of the way you speak.



zigziglar
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01 Feb 2015, 8:06 pm

Honestly, sounds to me like your differences make you a better person. There's nothing admirable in a person's ability to lie or put on a mask. :) I've never been diagnosed with anything (other than ADD as a child/teen), but my wife often points out times where I'm "being autistic". To me, the things she mentions are just a part of my more "matter of fact" or "rational" personality type, but who knows! I don't disagree with her that there are many similarities. I'm probably on the spectrum one way or another.

Take this for an example. If I receive a text message that has poor grammar and perhaps an auto-correct problem. I will read (ie sound it out in my head) literally as it appears. My confusion can last a split second all the way through to me having to write back asking "Wha???! !?!". And here's a T-shirt slogan that about sums it up:

"Let's eat Grandma.
Let's eat, Grandma.

Commas save lives!"

:mrgreen:

Waterfalls wrote:
I guess it's no wonder people can mix up ASD and BPD. I think it's the need to have things explained that may be the difference. Though I'm not sure anyone told me to change the way I talked, just in my teens, one day I realized I sounded different from others, like a book, and I wanted to change that. I think it was when I was preparing myself for a college interview, and I read and understood I needed to try to do things a way that could help me achieve my goal of going to college and not get in the way. I consciously changed the way I spoke, but I suppose doing that based on recommendations for how to be interviewed isn't really the change you're talking about that people with BPD do. Though when I was younger I'd sometimes try on accents. I now try to accomplish the singing tone I hear others use, that people seem to like, and I'm trying not to have my voice be flat, which is how I would be naturally. And I'm trying to do that to please others. Because I think within reason, I want to keep people comfortable and not make them dislike me over things I don't think are important. It's hard, though, always worrying.

One thing that's very different, though---I consciously try to copy at times (including scripts people suggest, and sometimes I ask for, as they're helpful) but it took me long time to learn to lie. I can choose to a bit if it seems important for me or for others, but lying never comes easily for me. Never.



Waterfalls
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01 Feb 2015, 11:45 pm

I didn't write that well, I meant I noticed how I sounded, probably because I read about the importance of sounding enthusiastic and interested, and tried to change how I sounded.

And you're right, Kraftie. I don't talk in a monotone anymore most of the time.



zigziglar
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02 Feb 2015, 12:11 am

Waterfalls wrote:
I didn't write that well, I meant I noticed how I sounded, probably because I read about the importance of sounding enthusiastic and interested, and tried to change how I sounded.

And you're right, Kraftie. I don't talk in a monotone anymore most of the time.


Believe me, a LOT of people struggle with that - and not many have a scientific justification!