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kaiouti12
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03 Aug 2021, 4:19 am

QFT wrote:
Crystal1414 wrote:
I only call it paranoia because other people believe that I am paranoid. I actually hate that word. I feel like it dismisses what I feel.


You should not let other people define who you are. If they dismiss you, that is their problem, not yours. And it is very likely that what you feel is valid, and NOT paranoia at all.

In John 7:20, Jews pretty much told Jesus he was paranoid, yet He wasn't. Since you have religious experiences, you might be going through the same thing. In Matt 7:13 Jesus said that most will go through wide gate that leads to disraction and only few will go through narrow gate that leads to life. So why would you trust majority's opinion then? Maybe you are one of the few, and you are the one who got it right.

On a more secular realm, geniuses like Galeleo and Einstein were labeled as crazy by their contemporaries, yet they turned out to be right. So if THEY were to go on meds, what a loss to science would that be.

I strongly encourage you to get off meds completely.


Getting off medication is no guarantee you'll turn into the next Einstein, Galileo or Jesus.



kaiouti12
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03 Aug 2021, 4:26 am

Redd_Kross wrote:
Bear in mind here, that some mental health conditions are out to trick you.

My cousin has bipolar. He is fine when he takes his meds, but the problem with being fine is he then thinks he doesn't need them. One or two missed doses and the manic phase starts - "See how much energy you have now! These tablets slow you down! Stop you achieving your true potential! Stop taking them, you are so much better free of medication!". And then the next thing you know he's fantasising about being an international DJ and travelling around the world on his non-existent yacht, and he blows money he doesn't have on fantasy schemes with shady "mates" who know he's vulnerable but are quite happy to rip him off.

And then he gets in trouble with his outrageous behaviour, dodgy mates and bad debts, there's a crisis, and then he's chronically depressed and back on the meds for 3 years until he gets straight. And then it starts all over again.

Be bloody careful as it's quite likely that's what is happening here. "You don't need the medication, it's dulling your perception. Listen to us, don't take the meds, we know more than the Doctors and your family do". Err no, it's a trap, don't fall into it.

And especially don't listen to people who have some sort of ill-thought-out moral stance on medication they've no experience of and have never needed to take.



Well said, There was a point I was suspected to have bipolar traits in my co-morbid diagnosis and I had swinging thoughts and behaviours such as like that. Now it's just Autism Spectrum Disorder with Schizo-Affective disorder.



magz
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03 Aug 2021, 5:13 am

QFT wrote:
kaiouti12 wrote:
QFT wrote:
meds cause deterioration of IQ over time and so forth. So if you can function fine without meds for months, then there is no reason in the world for you to take them. They do not offer any long term benefits what so ever. Unless you view hindering your performance as a “benefit”. If you are concerned about some bad decisions that take place on the scale of months rather than minutes or even hours, then you have plenty of time to sit down and think them through, without the need of meds.


Not true. Whats the big deal with IQ anyways? I mean their has been studies on the most intelligent people getting depression and even worse than that. I think people make too much of a big deal about being the smartest, strongest etc; because with a great strength, comes a great weakness, an archilles heel if you will.

I used to think that being smart was a good thing but all it gave me was insight into how things were, but gave me no ability to change or stop bad things from happening. No one gave me creedence or bothered/cared to listen to me because "I was the smartest" (without evidence) so that leads to a kind of despair. You know?

I come to the conclusion that I don't need to be ultra smart, or hyper intelligent either. My illness causes instability so "hindering my performance as a 'benefit'" is necessary to keep all bases covered and stop me from going down self destructive paths. It balances me out which I need. Otherwise I'd be bursting with chaotic energy spikes that would throw me through the loop. One more thing, if meds cause deterioration of IQ why then does the IQ come back after ceasing meds? Its still there! It's just hidden, the IQ is dampered so then you can have sight of other important things like other emotions and other processes. It comes back with brain training in time, the brain is a muscle you must exercise.


So you are pretty much saying that being super-intelligent is useless because other people don't appreciate it? I strongly disagree with it. Other people didn't appreciate Galileo and Einstein. Yet look at how much they ended up appreciating them afterwords. Same goes for countless writers and poets, at least the Soviet ones: there is even a saying "Soviet Union loves the dead". Just think of what a huge loss would it be if all those people were to say that their intelligence is useless since people around them don't appreciate them and go on meds? What a huge loss to science and to art that would be!

Now, what should you do with your intelligence? The same thing they did. Develop a career in either science or art, start publishing your science/art. That will give your life some purpose and direction. As a side note, I don't understand how most people can go through their same routine day in and day out for years without one of those careers -- with or without meds. I realize its a different topic, but I guess they are related. If all you want in life is just make enough money to put a bread on the table, then I agree with you, you don't really need to be super intelligent for that. But then the life loses its purpose. But if you decide to add a purpose to life by making more meaningful career, then yes you very much will need an intelligence.

I realize you might not be quite ready for it. But why not leave this option for the future? What if 10 years from now you will start to see things differently and realize you do want to make one of those creative careers after all? And then you will regret that your brain will be damaged by all those meds. So you should stop taking the meds regardless of anything else you do, just to leave those options open.

That plus also the very idea of damaging something looks really bad, to me anyway. I saw just a few days ago one of the neighbors made a really interesting toy-house for his son, and he said that after few weeks he will burn it. I asked why would you want to burn it? And he said he doesn't know what else to do with it. And I said keep it! I don't like the idea of all this effort going to waste! He said he will think about it. I don't know if he said it just to be polite or if he will seriously think about it. But I honestly hope he keeps it. The idea of him burning it is devastating.

Now look at how much worse it is to burn your brain cells. A brain is far more intricate thing, far more elegant than that house. And you are burning it with those meds for nothing. Don't you think its sad if you look at it this way?
My meds - the ones correctly prescribed, not the mismedication from the misdiagnosis - don't hinder my intelligence.
To the contrary: the meds that help me regulate my sleep and keep my anxiety and depression under control are very useful in keeping my intellectual abilities high. They're also very helpful for doing something productive with these abilities.


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03 Aug 2021, 7:03 am

Redd_Kross wrote:
Bear in mind here, that some mental health conditions are out to trick you.

My cousin has bipolar. He is fine when he takes his meds, but the problem with being fine is he then thinks he doesn't need them. One or two missed doses and the manic phase starts - "See how much energy you have now! These tablets slow you down! Stop you achieving your true potential! Stop taking them, you are so much better free of medication!". And then the next thing you know he's fantasising about being an international DJ and travelling around the world on his non-existent yacht, and he blows money he doesn't have on fantasy schemes with shady "mates" who know he's vulnerable but are quite happy to rip him off.

And then he gets in trouble with his outrageous behaviour, dodgy mates and bad debts, there's a crisis, and then he's chronically depressed and back on the meds for 3 years until he gets straight. And then it starts all over again.

Be bloody careful as it's quite likely that's what is happening here. "You don't need the medication, it's dulling your perception. Listen to us, don't take the meds, we know more than the Doctors and your family do". Err no, it's a trap, don't fall into it.

And especially don't listen to people who have some sort of ill-thought-out moral stance on medication they've no experience of and have never needed to take.


The last two paragraphs of what you wrote do not fit at all with what you wrote before these two paragraphs. For one thing, I don't know Crystal outside of this thread so there is no way I could "trick her into sending me money" even if I wanted to. Just because "some" people who suggest certain thing are there to scam you, it doesn't mean that "everyone" is, neither does it mean that said "certain thing" is a bad idea.

And I am not denying that scams happen. I personally been scammed back in 2010. I lost 10 thousand dollars on the scam. So I should know. But guess what: me being scammed did not involve "getting off the meds". I wasn't taking meds to begin with. What it involved instead was "me trying to establish independence from my overbearing mother". Which actually is a similar concept. People think badly of you, so they put some limitations on your life -- be it meds OR overbearing mother -- and then those limitations make you vulnerable and scammers are taking advantage of the vulnerable.

I have a better idea on how to avoid these situations. When someone asks you to send them money, buy some product, sign up for something, etc. then walk away. Until/unless any of those things are happening, you can assume that the person is sincere. I agree that "sincere" people can still be wrong. But how would you know whether they are right or wrong unless you give a thought to what they are saying? So the point is that you shouldn't dismiss them as "having an agenda" unless they ask you to sign up for some stuff. Thats all I am saying. And it worked for me ever since I learned my lesson on that scam back then.

And one more thing. In your last sentence you said "... and have never needed to take". Well, some doctors wouldn't agree that I never needed to take meds as some of them wanted me to take meds -- but I didn't listen to them. Of course, there were some other doctors that said I didn't need meds. In fact, 2/3 of the doctors said I don't need meds, and the other 1/3 said I needed them. I went with the ones that said I didn't need them (and would have done the same if the stats were different). That just goes to show that you shouldn't just automatically assume that needing or not needing meds is determined by what the doctor says.



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03 Aug 2021, 7:13 am

kaiouti12 wrote:
QFT wrote:
Crystal1414 wrote:
I only call it paranoia because other people believe that I am paranoid. I actually hate that word. I feel like it dismisses what I feel.


You should not let other people define who you are. If they dismiss you, that is their problem, not yours. And it is very likely that what you feel is valid, and NOT paranoia at all.

In John 7:20, Jews pretty much told Jesus he was paranoid, yet He wasn't. Since you have religious experiences, you might be going through the same thing. In Matt 7:13 Jesus said that most will go through wide gate that leads to disraction and only few will go through narrow gate that leads to life. So why would you trust majority's opinion then? Maybe you are one of the few, and you are the one who got it right.

On a more secular realm, geniuses like Galeleo and Einstein were labeled as crazy by their contemporaries, yet they turned out to be right. So if THEY were to go on meds, what a loss to science would that be.

I strongly encourage you to get off meds completely.


Getting off medication is no guarantee you'll turn into the next Einstein, Galileo or Jesus.


First of all, just the fact that there is no "guarantee", it doesn't mean it isn't worth a try. And, more importantly, life is not all or nothing. Even if one would not be next Einstein, one can still become next Weinberg. And even if one can't become next Weinberg, one can still become next Frolov. And so forth. The point is one should try their best, that way they won't have any regrets. Taking the meds prevents the person from doing their best.



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03 Aug 2021, 7:16 am

magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
kaiouti12 wrote:
QFT wrote:
meds cause deterioration of IQ over time and so forth. So if you can function fine without meds for months, then there is no reason in the world for you to take them. They do not offer any long term benefits what so ever. Unless you view hindering your performance as a “benefit”. If you are concerned about some bad decisions that take place on the scale of months rather than minutes or even hours, then you have plenty of time to sit down and think them through, without the need of meds.


Not true. Whats the big deal with IQ anyways? I mean their has been studies on the most intelligent people getting depression and even worse than that. I think people make too much of a big deal about being the smartest, strongest etc; because with a great strength, comes a great weakness, an archilles heel if you will.

I used to think that being smart was a good thing but all it gave me was insight into how things were, but gave me no ability to change or stop bad things from happening. No one gave me creedence or bothered/cared to listen to me because "I was the smartest" (without evidence) so that leads to a kind of despair. You know?

I come to the conclusion that I don't need to be ultra smart, or hyper intelligent either. My illness causes instability so "hindering my performance as a 'benefit'" is necessary to keep all bases covered and stop me from going down self destructive paths. It balances me out which I need. Otherwise I'd be bursting with chaotic energy spikes that would throw me through the loop. One more thing, if meds cause deterioration of IQ why then does the IQ come back after ceasing meds? Its still there! It's just hidden, the IQ is dampered so then you can have sight of other important things like other emotions and other processes. It comes back with brain training in time, the brain is a muscle you must exercise.


So you are pretty much saying that being super-intelligent is useless because other people don't appreciate it? I strongly disagree with it. Other people didn't appreciate Galileo and Einstein. Yet look at how much they ended up appreciating them afterwords. Same goes for countless writers and poets, at least the Soviet ones: there is even a saying "Soviet Union loves the dead". Just think of what a huge loss would it be if all those people were to say that their intelligence is useless since people around them don't appreciate them and go on meds? What a huge loss to science and to art that would be!

Now, what should you do with your intelligence? The same thing they did. Develop a career in either science or art, start publishing your science/art. That will give your life some purpose and direction. As a side note, I don't understand how most people can go through their same routine day in and day out for years without one of those careers -- with or without meds. I realize its a different topic, but I guess they are related. If all you want in life is just make enough money to put a bread on the table, then I agree with you, you don't really need to be super intelligent for that. But then the life loses its purpose. But if you decide to add a purpose to life by making more meaningful career, then yes you very much will need an intelligence.

I realize you might not be quite ready for it. But why not leave this option for the future? What if 10 years from now you will start to see things differently and realize you do want to make one of those creative careers after all? And then you will regret that your brain will be damaged by all those meds. So you should stop taking the meds regardless of anything else you do, just to leave those options open.

That plus also the very idea of damaging something looks really bad, to me anyway. I saw just a few days ago one of the neighbors made a really interesting toy-house for his son, and he said that after few weeks he will burn it. I asked why would you want to burn it? And he said he doesn't know what else to do with it. And I said keep it! I don't like the idea of all this effort going to waste! He said he will think about it. I don't know if he said it just to be polite or if he will seriously think about it. But I honestly hope he keeps it. The idea of him burning it is devastating.

Now look at how much worse it is to burn your brain cells. A brain is far more intricate thing, far more elegant than that house. And you are burning it with those meds for nothing. Don't you think its sad if you look at it this way?
My meds - the ones correctly prescribed, not the mismedication from the misdiagnosis - don't hinder my intelligence.
To the contrary: the meds that help me regulate my sleep and keep my anxiety and depression under control are very useful in keeping my intellectual abilities high. They're also very helpful for doing something productive with these abilities.


The reason your meds don't hinder your intelligence is that they are not anti-psychotic. The anti-psychotic meds would hinder intelligence, thats what they are designed to do.



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03 Aug 2021, 10:38 am

QFT wrote:
The reason your meds don't hinder your intelligence is that they are not anti-psychotic. The anti-psychotic meds would hinder intelligence, thats what they are designed to do.

Actually, the one I take for insomnia - quetiapine - is an antipsychotic that, used in small doses, shows very strong sleep inducing effect.

However: my main point is that the right medicine in right dose should not hinder a person's intellectual abilities. If medication makes you feel and function worse - especially long term - try changing your medication. There really is a choice and every organism reacts differently so seek what helps you.


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03 Aug 2021, 11:43 am

magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
The reason your meds don't hinder your intelligence is that they are not anti-psychotic. The anti-psychotic meds would hinder intelligence, thats what they are designed to do.

Actually, the one I take for insomnia - quetiapine - is an antipsychotic that, used in small doses, shows very strong sleep inducing effect.


In this case, logically, it has to hinder your brain function. Because antipsychotics are neuroleptics. If you look at the origin of the word "neuroleptic" what that word says is that it blocks the nerves in your brain. Well, if it blocks the nerves in your brain then, logically, it hinders brain function. And it makes sense: how else to get rid of hallucination without hindering brain function? I know you don't have hallucinations. But keep in mind: those meds are designed for people who do.

I realize that you are saying that you are functioning very well. But how do you know you wouldn't function even better if you were off meds completely? I remember you said you have a career in physics but you had to take a step aside to take care of your kids. Well, when you go back to physics, how do you know you won't be even more productive without meds?

I guess one thing you can say is that without meds your insomnia would return and insomnia would hinder your productivity. But what that means is that insomnia hinders your productivity, and meds hinder your productivity, and as it happens meds hinder your productivity less than insomnia. But still it is rather sad that meds hinder it too. I wish you could find some way of addressing insomnia without hindering yourself with meds.

magz wrote:
However: my main point is that the right medicine in right dose should not hinder a person's intellectual abilities. If medication makes you feel and function worse - especially long term - try changing your medication. There really is a choice and every organism reacts differently so seek what helps you.


I noticed you keep using the word "you". I am not on medication, and never have been. I am just looking at what I read about the meds and using logic.



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03 Aug 2021, 12:00 pm

QFT wrote:
In this case, logically, it has to hinder your brain function. Because antipsychotics are neuroleptics. If you look at the origin of the word "neuroleptic" what that word says is that it blocks the nerves in your brain. Well, if it blocks the nerves in your brain then, logically, it hinders brain function.

This is the flaw in your logic.
Not all activity of the brain improves its performance.
A brain can also simply generate noise.
So, if you give antipsychotics to a healthy brain, it would indeed hinder its intellectual abilities.
But psychotic symptoms are all about the brain generating overwhelming noise.
So anti-psichotics help psychotic brains. Quiet the noise down so useful thoughts get more room.

PS - I used generic "you" in my previous posts.


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03 Aug 2021, 12:42 pm

magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
In this case, logically, it has to hinder your brain function. Because antipsychotics are neuroleptics. If you look at the origin of the word "neuroleptic" what that word says is that it blocks the nerves in your brain. Well, if it blocks the nerves in your brain then, logically, it hinders brain function.

This is the flaw in your logic.
Not all activity of the brain improves its performance.
A brain can also simply generate noise.
So, if you give antipsychotics to a healthy brain, it would indeed hinder its intellectual abilities.
But psychotic symptoms are all about the brain generating overwhelming noise.
So anti-psichotics help psychotic brains. Quiet the noise down so useful thoughts get more room.

PS - I used generic "you" in my previous posts.


Thank you for explaining this so concisely.

Reducing activity in this context isn't a bad thing, it's reducing over-excitement because there's excessive stimulation; excessive stimulation has the effect of reducing function, not improving it.


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03 Aug 2021, 1:25 pm

magz wrote:
So, if you give antipsychotics to a healthy brain, it would indeed hinder its intellectual abilities.


But you said you are not psychotic. You were misdiagnosed. So what you just wrote above implies that your taking antipsychotic will hinder your abilities.

magz wrote:
But psychotic symptoms are all about the brain generating overwhelming noise.


Paranoia is not noise because its not random. Maybe disorganized symptoms of schizophrenia could be viewed as noise but not the paranoid ones.

Besides, Crystal's only "evidence" that her thoughts are paranoid is that others view them as such. But maybe others just misunderstand her.



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03 Aug 2021, 1:32 pm

QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
So, if you give antipsychotics to a healthy brain, it would indeed hinder its intellectual abilities.


But you said you are not psychotic. You were misdiagnosed. So what you just wrote above implies that your taking antipsychotic will hinder your abilities.
Large doses prescribed for schizophrenia did.
Very small doses for insomnia just quiet down my brain enough for falling asleep. They don't cumulate, they are metabolised within about 6 hours, so in the morning I'm free of them and well-rested :)
Without the meds, sleep deprivation used to massively hinder my brain functionality in all areas, not just IQ (but including it).
You see, while not psychotic, my brain isn't 100% healthy. I've been suffering from insomnia since toddlerhood.

QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
But psychotic symptoms are all about the brain generating overwhelming noise.

Paranoia is not noise because its not random. Maybe disorganized symptoms of schizophrenia could be viewed as noise but not the paranoid ones.
Seeing patterns and meanings in everything is one of possible forms of brain noise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia Healthy brains do it all the time and psychotic brains can do way too much of it.

QFT wrote:
Besides, Crystal's only "evidence" that her thoughts are paranoid is that others view them as such. But maybe others just misunderstand her.
I'm concerned with it, too. I'd love to hear (read) how Crystal experiences them. Anxiety + pattern thinking + autism can be misinterpreted for paranoia from outside :(


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03 Aug 2021, 1:44 pm

magz wrote:
Seeing patterns and meanings in everything is one of possible forms of brain noise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia Healthy brains do it all the time and psychotic brains can do way too much of it.


That's why I'm so much more productive as an emcee when my brain feels like it's exploding. :oops:


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03 Aug 2021, 2:01 pm

magz wrote:
I'm concerned with it, too. I'd love to hear (read) how Crystal experiences them. Anxiety + pattern thinking + autism can be misinterpreted for paranoia from outside :(


In other cases (as we've seen posters on here demonstrating this) that paranoia interpretation is absolutely correct and generally it's a matter of how willing the person in question is willing to listen to others perspectives.

If the person in question has actually been the subject of conspiratorial abuse that's probably going to reinforce what is judged as paranoia, make them less willing to listen to others, form connections, etc. That paranoia has a rational basis but gets taken to an irrational length. Is it misinterpretation to view it as paranoia, or is it correctly interpreting?

Either way, the disconnection from others and their perspectives will reduce how interacting with others tends to regulate stuff like paranoia and excessive reliance on patterns that may or may not exist, which might make it a bit of a Catch-22.


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03 Aug 2021, 2:18 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
magz wrote:
I'm concerned with it, too. I'd love to hear (read) how Crystal experiences them. Anxiety + pattern thinking + autism can be misinterpreted for paranoia from outside :(


In other cases (as we've seen posters on here demonstrating this) that paranoia interpretation is absolutely correct and generally it's a matter of how willing the person in question is willing to listen to others perspectives.

If the person in question has actually been the subject of conspiratorial abuse that's probably going to reinforce what is judged as paranoia, make them less willing to listen to others, form connections, etc. That paranoia has a rational basis but gets taken to an irrational length. Is it misinterpretation to view it as paranoia, or is it correctly interpreting?

Either way, the disconnection from others and their perspectives will reduce how interacting with others tends to regulate stuff like paranoia and excessive reliance on patterns that may or may not exist, which might make it a bit of a Catch-22.
That's why psychiatry is tricky.

I'd use the pragmatic criterion: does given treatment help you sustainably function?


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03 Aug 2021, 2:40 pm

My anti-depressants make me slower. I can feel the difference in my thinking speed. But I've also grown old enough to realize that without them I'm pretty useless. I'm willing to be a lil slower internally to not be a curled up sobbing ball that can't really live life.

I've had to grow past the "I feel btr so I'll stop them" thing. And I knew growing up that I'd likely end up with lifelong depression; it's genetic on one side back several generations. I've even had one of my drugs stop working entirely while taking it. I'm back on it many years later (not the only drug I'm on), but I still have to be aware that it could stop working again.

I'd rather be able to function in society than stay off my scripts and be weird, odd, scared, & non-functioning. I don't understand the desire to be more of oneself than be functional. Sometimes I feel very out of place here because of that decision.

Insert my usual spiel that Seroquel (Quetiapine) should not be used off-label for sleeping or other things.