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Iris.Ell
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28 Feb 2024, 5:33 pm

They Are literally everywhere, under every little rock, no?! All my threeAnd each time, I keep saying that I now know, I am wiser and feel more prepared to deal with that, and I will recognize and avoid it. But no. Hell, that makes me angry with myself. past relationships turned out to be narcissists, the covert types, in particular. One of them was also ASD.

I am wondering why I ignore the red flags? Because I can notice them from the start.

I am shocked every time I discover that a person close to me is a narcissist, and it only hits me after I end it, after I decide to block them and disappear because I had enough of their stupid ego, they have disrespected and devalued me and I end up feeling disgraced, disgusted. Only then, from a distance I can see their narcissism, can start seeing how sly they had been, how much they have conceived me with their manipulations . Especially that sly covert type, that takes time to discover and only realise their behavior when you are useless to them or when you are not servicing them!!

They are so good at gaslighting that will try to make you look crazy and whenever you indicate their bad behavior, they just reflect what you said back (so it's always the other persons fault) but that just looks totally ridiculous. They never apologise, they never are really empathetic.

Anybody that can relate? Women or men.


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28 Feb 2024, 6:30 pm

I have experienced that as well. I feel that part of the fault is my autism as I am way too trusting of others. I also view narcissism as an off-shoot of low self esteem



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28 Feb 2024, 7:28 pm

@Iris.Ell: How do you know they are Narcissists?

Do they exhibit all  13 Traits of a Narcissist , or do they just disagree with you, not do what you want, and live better and more exciting lives than you do?


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Iris.Ell
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29 Feb 2024, 10:29 am

Fnord wrote:
@Iris.Ell: How do you know they are Narcissists?

Do they exhibit all  13 Traits of a Narcissist , or do they just disagree with you, not do what you want, and live better and more exciting lives than you do?


Thanks for your reply.

First of all, I do not need to have a DSM manual in my desk to tick boxes or a Phd in Clinical psychology to judge whether someone is a diagnosed narcissist. I will leave this to the clinical psychologists, it is their job. Whether the DSM is a right or faulty tool is a whole discussion as well. I am in a position though to judge based on my observations and my analytical thinking, my experience both personal and working. Narcissism has become my special interest for the past 5 years.

To answer quickly, no it is not at all that they disagree with me, or me with their choices. On the contrary, I am very supportive with their choices and needs, that is actually why they chose me as a supply, for the freedom I gave them along with other good services. It is that are not with mine, especially when they stop having me around as a slave, it is when they start devaluing. But they still want to have me around as a source of supply, especially when there is nothing else available. So their goal is to keep me small around them, or exploit me as much as possible be for whatever reason (it's not just sex, it's also services and advice).Those people do not have real friends to show their real face. Basically they have no identity. They are empty .
No I am not perfect, very far from it. And it took me ages to understand what counts for abuse. How many times did I thought to myself that they might have been excused because I am actually the wrong one, so I tolerated it.

And secondly, their lives are totally miserable even if they look successful and have good paying jobs. Empty, stressed, unhappy and happy only when they reach what is shiny for them at that time, get the promotion, get that job they wanted . But still unhappy , always unhappy. What exactly it is to be jealous about? I have other deeper values and appreciation of life.

It doesn't matter if I survived narcissistic abuse and worked with victims of narcissistic abuse, which I studied like a special interest I won't go there.

Does society need a DSM manual? They would better upgrade it. Regarding the 13 traits,it's all wrong, for the covert type that I am taking about. Nobody can know what exactly is inside their mind. Their projected image is so well hidden under a persona they can safely identify with -and then as they grow more into themselves and when they do not have anything to gain from their special other that is used for supplies, they behave with selfishness, lack of empathy, entitled-ness and with an elevated sense of self. Their real motives and behavior is very well concealed to any one and they can trick everyone, even their own family. They do not allow people to know them.

Do you know that covert narcissists are a very difficult to trace specimen, because they are ridiculously good liars, manipulators, imitators of good human behavior and ethics? They have an inflated sense of self, but they hide all very well under their introverted-ness, shyness and even sweetness. And I believe that only really closed ones can have an opinion, and that is only after love-bombing phase has passed and only when they feel safe enough or superior enough to drop their masks. It is usually the special other person that they say they love,but really hate, that is able to judge, if they haven't distorted their lenses through gaslighting.The rest of the people is just a wonderful source of narcissistic food and supply. Not even their closed family can have a clue because of how subjective they are or because of their own pathologies.

The diagnosis of a covert narcissist is a very much disputed topic even among psychologists, and I will be very surprised to see a subcategory with specified criteria in the DSM manual.
Please read below. https://www.healthline.com/health/covert-narcissist


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Last edited by Iris.Ell on 29 Feb 2024, 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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29 Feb 2024, 11:16 am

No, they're not actually everywhere unless one's definition of a narcissist is overly broad.


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29 Feb 2024, 11:21 am

I think personalities are too complex to just pin a diagnosis on people.

It looks like op has had a run of bad luck with people treating them not very well or taking advantage of them.


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29 Feb 2024, 11:27 am

Most of the time what people label as Narcissism is "anyone who disagrees with me". It is also used to describe self-entitlement. Neither of which is actually Narcissism.

The term Gaslighting is also overused - usually by people who don't actually understand the term.

Of course there are plenty of self-centered, overly entitled people out there, but once you start diagnosing them yourself, you'll find lots of them. More often than not its simply confirmation bias.



Last edited by DanielW on 29 Feb 2024, 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Feb 2024, 11:32 am

DanielW wrote:
Most of the time what people label as Narcissism is "anyone who disagrees with me". It is also used to describe self-entitlement. Neither of which is actually Narcissism.


Agreed. I also notice the people who are quickest to label others as narcissists are often closer to the profile of one than they'd ever be willing to admit to themselves. All the more so if that person is insisting they're especially well-equipped to identify narcissists.


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29 Feb 2024, 11:41 am

DanielW wrote:
The term Gaslighting is also overused - usually by people who don't actually understand the term.


I have noticed this too.



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29 Feb 2024, 11:54 am

blitzkrieg wrote:
DanielW wrote:
The term Gaslighting is also overused - usually by people who don't actually understand the term.


I have noticed this too.


It's not just gaslighting, there's a bunch of pop-psi jargon that gets tossed around very casually by people.


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29 Feb 2024, 12:05 pm

It often does seem to come down to people giving a label to relatively minor behavior or even just to opinions they don't like - opinions that disagree with their own. If a person thinks that many people around them are narcissists and/or gaslighters, I think it's very likely that the problem is internal rather than external unless there are exceptional circumstances - like only knowing a couple people due to agoraphobia. I've seen strange ideas regarding this stuff develop from fringe religious beliefs too. Confirmation bias can play a big role with that. In any case, I don't think that narcissism is that common. Not everyone who engages in hurtful behavior is a narcissist. Abusers are more likely to target those who appear vulnerable which can include autistics. But "abuser" and "narcissist" aren't equivalent terms. I've only dealt with a few people I would consider abusive.


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29 Feb 2024, 12:11 pm

Yeah it's like saying that all murderers are psychopaths when in reality psychopathic murderers might be in the minority.


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29 Feb 2024, 12:25 pm

Iris.Ell wrote:
I am shocked every time I discover that a person close to me is a narcissist, and it only hits me after I end it, after I decide to block them and disappear because I had enough of their stupid ego, they have disrespected and devalued me and I end up feeling disgraced, disgusted. Only then, from a distance I can see their narcissism, can start seeing how sly they had been, how much they have conceived me with their manipulations . Especially that sly covert type, that takes time to discover and only realise their behavior when you are useless to them or when you are not servicing them!!

They are so good at gaslighting that will try to make you look crazy and whenever you indicate their bad behavior, they just reflect what you said back (so it's always the other persons fault) but that just looks totally ridiculous. They never apologise, they never are really empathetic


I'm somewhat confused. In your profile you mention that you work as a psychologist. But I wouldn't expect that description of narcissism from a psychologist.


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29 Feb 2024, 12:33 pm

Perhaps the OP isn't a Clinical Psychologist? There are several sub-types, not all are trained to diagnose disorders.

Take School Psychologists for instance, they are largely decorative rather than useful. :-)



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29 Feb 2024, 6:05 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
No, they're not actually everywhere unless one's definition of a narcissist is overly broad.
DanielW wrote:
Most of the time what people label as Narcissism is "anyone who disagrees with me".  It is also used to describe self-entitlement.  Neither of which is actually Narcissism.
funeralxempire wrote:
Agreed.  I also notice the people who are quickest to label others as narcissists are often closer to the profile of one than they'd ever be willing to admit to themselves.  All the more so if that person is insisting they're especially well-equipped to identify narcissists.
funeralxempire wrote:
It's not just gaslighting, there's a bunch of pop-psi jargon that gets tossed around very casually by people.
TwilightPrincess wrote:
It often does seem to come down to people giving a label to relatively minor behavior or even just to opinions they don't like - opinions that disagree with their own.  If a person thinks that many people around them are narcissists and/or gaslighters, I think it's very likely that the problem is internal rather than external unless there are exceptional circumstances - like only knowing a couple people due to agoraphobia.  I've seen strange ideas regarding this stuff develop from fringe religious beliefs too.  Confirmation bias can play a big role with that.  In any case, I don't think that narcissism is that common.  Not everyone who engages in hurtful behavior is a narcissist.  Abusers are more likely to target those who appear vulnerable which can include autistics.  But "abuser" and "narcissist" aren't equivalent terms.  I've only dealt with a few people I would consider abusive.
I underlined the pertinent statements.

• Broken promises?  Ever consider Dunning-Kruger Syndrome?
• Patronizing?  Maybe just a snob.
• Lack Empathy?  Could be Autistic, Traumatized, or suffering from PTSD.
• Manipulative?  Does the term "Perpetual Victim" spring to mind?
• Conceited?  Their accomplishments may have contributed to this attitude.
• Treats you unkindly?  YOU could be the one annoying HIM.

Another thing to consider -- A narcissistic politician who likes to accuse his opponents of psychological disorders, and only because they disagree with him, point out the reality of his lies, obstruct or thwart his plans, or refuse to do what he wants.  He would be engaging in what is called "projection".

Know anyone like that?


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01 Mar 2024, 8:21 am

A think that any psychologist worth their salt wouldn't be so fast in diagnosing a person with a personality disorder


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