christianity and LGBT

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14 Mar 2012, 6:01 pm

Homophobic christians annoy me, but so do LGBT affirmative christian apologists. What the Bible says about homosexuality is pretty straighforward. If you're a christian, you belong to an inherently bigoted religion, even if you yourself are not, an the least you can do is be theologically consistent. It's nice to see people trying to be accepting, but let's call a spade a spade. Either accept your religion for what it is, or reject it.

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shrox
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14 Mar 2012, 6:31 pm

davidalan11235813 wrote:

¡Ay, caramba! That is right on so many levels, even Vishnu doesn't have enough fingers to count.

Ambivalence
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15 Mar 2012, 12:10 pm

shrox wrote:

davidalan11235813 wrote:

¡Ay, caramba! That is right on so many levels, even Vishnu doesn't have enough fingers to count.

The Bible is not straightforward about homosexuality. The purity law bits are superceded - like a lot of other unpleasantness - by that Nazarene guy and the rest is down to context and translation. As this.

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15 Mar 2012, 12:13 pm

Makes me wonder about those "Christian Values" that this country was allegedly founded on - the forced slavery of African races, the subjugation of women into second-class citizens (or chattel), and the hatred of anyone in the LGBT community.

So much for "The Golden Rule"...

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15 Mar 2012, 12:51 pm

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the PPR subforum? I don't see what the incendiary and irrational topic of religion has to do with LGBT matters. I'd appreciate if I didn't run into religious topics outside of the PPR forum, which I'm avoiding these days because there is too much religious dogma being thrown around.

(Btw, I wish there was a subforum to discuss politics and social matters without being preached at).

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15 Mar 2012, 1:51 pm

Ambivalence wrote:

shrox wrote:

davidalan11235813 wrote:

¡Ay, caramba! That is right on so many levels, even Vishnu doesn't have enough fingers to count.

It is very straight forward about it. It says it is wrong. It also says many of things I have done are wrong. So who am I to judge?

Understand that I don't care about it. Understand also that Jesus cares enough to not care as well.

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15 Mar 2012, 2:47 pm

I had never responded to a post in this section of the forum, but I occasionally read one of that sounds interesting, like this one. I don't post because I really can't identify with "LGBT". I can see those that do sometimes have pain and suffering that I don't understand, but pain and suffering is just that, and I don't want to see people inflicting such on anyone. Whether or not something is "wrong" or "sinful" is moot then, those that point out a speck in your eye should be mindful of the plank that sticks out of theirs.

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15 Mar 2012, 3:14 pm

Despite all your tolerance and understanding, you still believe and suggest that gay sex is a sin. I don't blame you for that since that is what your holy book says. I blame the holy book though. The Bible is offensive to me. It contains hate speech (the OT as well as Paul's writings) and should be re-written for the 21st century. Until then, I'd rather that religion is not brought up at all in an LGBT forum.

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15 Mar 2012, 3:22 pm

davidalan11235813 wrote:

+1

And one of the reasons I left Christianity among other issues was when I discovered where my role as a female was.

1 Corinthians 11 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
11:13 "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?"

Ephesians 5:22-24
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Homosexuality

Leviticus 18:22
Homosexual acts are an abomination to God.

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads."

Anyway I don't want to start a whole big debate since I know there are Christians on this forum. Each to their own but this is just my opinion on religion in general. Funny thing, you'd think it'd contradict many of the aspects some of us were taught about Jesus but that's another bag of beans I guess.

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15 Mar 2012, 3:35 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:

So be it.

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15 Mar 2012, 4:17 pm

Shrox, please read the short article I linked to - I wasn't going to restate as my own the points the author (clearly not a fan of homosexuality) makes, but it's always refreshing to see someone approach that sort of thing with intellectual honesty. MissConstrue, though it wasn't aimed your way, likewise; the Leviticus prohibitions against homosexuality (and all the other crap that's in Leviticus) are simply not relevant to the New Covenant; and if they were, then the same people who to slake their own bigotry are so keen to justify their homophobia with the name of Christianity should be really het up about people not sacrificing pigeons every five minutes to cleanse themselves, and so on, and so on. Leviticus is full of stupid s**t people are supposed to do or avoid doing, although it does make for some great pages in the Brick Testament.

(I do agree about the constant sexism. It's possible - leaving aside the (to me) ridiculous notion of Biblical inerrancy - that we see the whole thing through a patriarchal "filter" on account of all the scribes being patriarchal gits, but it's one of the main reasons I struggle with Christianity: I cannot accept that God incarnate would say a few of the things that Jesus is supposed to have said, and I seriously dislike Paul. I can see, just about, Jesus as God misrepresented, but the legacy of the Church, and the OT meanderings, nah.)

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15 Mar 2012, 4:31 pm

Ambivalence wrote:

Shrox, please read the short article I linked to - I wasn't going to restate as my own the points the author (clearly not a fan of homosexuality) makes, but it's always refreshing to see someone approach that sort of thing with intellectual honesty. MissConstrue, though it wasn't aimed your way, likewise; the Leviticus prohibitions against homosexuality (and all the other crap that's in Leviticus) are simply not relevant to the New Covenant; and if they were, then the same people who to slake their own bigotry are so keen to justify their homophobia with the name of Christianity should be really het up about people not sacrificing pigeons every five minutes to cleanse themselves, and so on, and so on. Leviticus is full of stupid sh** people are supposed to do or avoid doing, although it does make for some great pages in the Brick Testament.

(I do agree about the constant sexism. It's possible - leaving aside the (to me) ridiculous notion of Biblical inerrancy - that we see the whole thing through a patriarchal "filter" on account of all the scribes being patriarchal gits, but it's one of the main reasons I struggle with Christianity: I cannot accept that God incarnate would say a few of the things that Jesus is supposed to have said, and I seriously dislike Paul. I can see, just about, Jesus as God misrepresented, but the legacy of the Church, and the OT meanderings, nah.)

Yeah there are scriptures debatable especially with Paul. I'm just saying there are people who take the bible literally and by every word. Why there is emphasis on homosexuality being a sin rather than the stuff listed about women having to cover themselves and be modest, I'll never know except that Christians have branched out and may have evolved since the age of enlightenment. Anyway I know this is uncomfortable issue for some people so I'll leave it to that.

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15 Mar 2012, 4:37 pm

Ambivalence wrote:

Shrox, please read the short article I linked to - I wasn't going to restate as my own the points the author (clearly not a fan of homosexuality) makes, but it's always refreshing to see someone approach that sort of thing with intellectual honesty. MissConstrue, though it wasn't aimed your way, likewise; the Leviticus prohibitions against homosexuality (and all the other crap that's in Leviticus) are simply not relevant to the New Covenant; and if they were, then the same people who to slake their own bigotry are so keen to justify their homophobia with the name of Christianity should be really het up about people not sacrificing pigeons every five minutes to cleanse themselves, and so on, and so on. Leviticus is full of stupid sh** people are supposed to do or avoid doing, although it does make for some great pages in the Brick Testament.

(I do agree about the constant sexism. It's possible - leaving aside the (to me) ridiculous notion of Biblical inerrancy - that we see the whole thing through a patriarchal "filter" on account of all the scribes being patriarchal gits, but it's one of the main reasons I struggle with Christianity: I cannot accept that God incarnate would say a few of the things that Jesus is supposed to have said, and I seriously dislike Paul. I can see, just about, Jesus as God misrepresented, but the legacy of the Church, and the OT meanderings, nah.)

I did read it, but empires rise and fall, they even follow predicable patterns that are clear, but usually in hindsight. The American viewpoint on homosexually is not shared by the majority of the world, nor by history. Even the most "vicious" native Americans tribes treated their "two-spirit" members with all the respect as any other, although they were not tribally compelled to fight as the other men were.

My viewpoint? I just don't like it when a man hits on me, but mistakes happen. However I really don't like it when I have let a man know I am not interested, and they part with "What a shame". That comes off as an insult. I guess it's kind of similar to what women might feel when being approached by men they are just not interested in, then he leaves with some snide comment.

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19 Apr 2012, 7:51 pm

I was a Quaker but walked away from them because of transgender hostility in my meeting and became a Buddhist.

To me *all* the Abrahamic religions seem absurdly obsessed with who shares a bed with whom, who sticks which body parts into which orifices and what position they assume while all this is going on. I don't wish Jews, Christians or Muslims ill but I find it impossible to take them seriously when they are so sanctimonious about sex.

As a perceptive man once said, "Leave the dead to bury the dead".

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19 Apr 2012, 10:10 pm

I'm not gay, but I am transgender and I belong to the United Church of Canada. They're pretty accepting of LGBT and women's rights. I'm trying to find a good congregation in my city to be a part of.

I don't want to start an argument, but this was a good read for me:
http://www.gaychristianfellowship.com/a ... ries&sid=1

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20 Apr 2012, 6:07 am

I'll probably get into trouble for this ... so what's new ...

As an aspie MtF TS ex-Quaker I'd have to say that I'm quite sickened by what shrox has posted in this thread. He says he does not condemn people whose actions he nevertheless calls "sin". Does it never occur to him that calling something a "sin" *entails* condemnation simply by virtue of what the word "sin" means?

Sadly my experience of Quakers is that they are very prone to this kind of doublethink. They always have some rationalisation that portrays them as good people and excuses them when they treat others badly.

Whited sepulchres come to mind.

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