Why LGBT teens become cis-gender heterosexual as adults?

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Twilightprincess
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16 Aug 2022, 11:59 pm

Please read this. Most of your "research" comes from these flawed studies.

Quote:
Most of the so called “research” on desistance is quite old (going back to the 1970s & 1980s), and most of it starts by making a number of fundamentally flawed assumptions.

The most common of these are that cross gender behaviour is:

Undesirable

An identifier of future sexuality (ie that trans feminine young people are really gay)

A reliable method of determining the above.

In other words, most cited studies didn’t even look at transgender young people, but looked at young people who displayed cross gender behaviour - otherwise known as Gender Non-Conformity, and then spuriously conflated that with homosexuality.

Another aspect to note is that much “research” has been conducted by known trans hostile clinicians, researchers and academics (such as Zucker, Bradly, Bailey and Singh, among others).

While apparently well regarded within the medical community, these figures, their views and their “research” are regarded as highly biased, deeply harmful and out of touch by the trans community at large.

It is a major and continuing issue that most research regarding transgender people is conducted by hostile cisgender (non-trans) people looking for a “cause” or “reason” to explain why trans people exist in order to push a “cure” - rather than address the prevalent transphobia in society.

The Steensma 2011 Study

The often quoted 80% statistic originates from the Desisting and persisting gender dysphoria after childhood study by Steensma et al in 2011, and to say it is deeply flawed would be an understatement.

While this particular study did indeed include some transgender young people, it had huge problems with definitions, methodology & follow up.

The key problems are:

Including participants who had been “diagnosed” using differing criteria from DSM* IV & V - mixing up young people who had dysphoria, those that had only socially transitioned and those who were non conforming. (*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

Treating those different participants as though they were all the same.

Counting participants who could not be contacted during follow up as having “desisted”

Counting participants who did not have dysphoria differently at the start and end of the study

Putting it really simply - if you start a study with 100 people, some transgender and most not - but say they are all transgender, then finish the study by counting those you lost track of, and those who weren’t really transgender to start with as having “desisted” or stopped being transgender - then you end up with an 80%+ “desistance” rate.

It has been noted that other studies suffered from the same fundamental flaws as the Steensma study above.

Interestingly however, Steensma conducted a follow up study (Factors associated with desistance and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria) in 2013 which addressed these issues and looked at a key additional factor - the intensity of gender dysphoria experienced - and the results were dramatically different.

This study found that young people who actually met the clinical guidelines for gender dysphoria as children generally ended up as transgender adults, and this was a good indicator of those who would go on to transition medically.

This makes perfect sense when considering that later, properly conducted research (Gender Cognition in Transgender Children, 2015) found that children who meet the current clinical guidelines for gender dysphoria are as consistent in their gender identity as the general population.

Dr K Zucker & the 80% claim

Dr K Zucker, formerly of the Toronto CAMH clinic, has also claimed that gender dysphoria desisted in 80 percent of cases. However, when patient files at the clinic were reviewed by independent investigators they found that 42 percent never even met the clinical criteria for juvenile gender dysphoria to start with.

Zucker and his research are no stranger to controversy, including conducting a study where prepubscent boys with gender dysphoria were rated by physical attractiveness.

The Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry noted in a 2003 report (no longer available) that Zucker’s techniques were “something disturbingly close to reparative therapy for homosexuals,” (aka Conversion Therapy), and the author of the report, Phyllis Burke, questioned the idea that transgender children should be treated as mentally ill by saying, “The diagnosis of GID* in children, as supported by Zucker and his colleagues, is simply child abuse.”

*Gender Identity Disorder was a precursor diagnosis to Gender Dysphoria.

In 2015 the CAMH clinic in Toronto was closed down and Zucker fired, following an independent investigation which noted many disturbing findings, including treatment methodology 30 years out of date, intrusive sexual questioning of children, conversion therapy practices and inappropriate photography of children, among many other issues.

It remains surprising that such a figure was given influence over young people’s lives for so long, and even more surprising that the NHS continued to work with such a figure. It is no surprise to find that the failed NHS GID service for young people suffers from many of the same issues as Zucker’s original clinic did, given it was built utilising the same model and input from Zucker.

What it does highlight is that the medical and research communities, even today, routinely ignore or refuse to listen to issues raised by transgender people. There is a dominant, prevalent culture of “we know best” that is rooted in the belief within those communities that it is preferable trans people did not exist.

Conclusion

The “Desistance” claim is a myth, junk science built upon a foundation of homophobia, transphobia, bad science and poor statistics, and promoted by those hostile to trans people of all ages in order to justify harms such as conversion therapy, denial of trans identities and removal of transgender rights.


https://www.clairestranstalks.co.uk/new ... ransgender


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Last edited by Twilightprincess on 17 Aug 2022, 12:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

fredpat
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17 Aug 2022, 12:06 am

I read the article you have reference about 317 children. The study select a specific population: "children who transition to a new gender with social changes". This does not include "children" who identify as the opposite gender and did not start the social transition, which are the majority in middle and high schools. Most likely these teen are the 80%-90% who stop identify as trans in adulthood, showed by the other eleven studies.

Titled "Do children grow out of gender dysphoria?"
https://www.transgendertrend.com/children-change-minds/

Twilightprincess wrote:
Here's a more recent study involving over 300 children:

Quote:
The new study, published in the journal Pediatrics, followed this cohort as they reached a milestone roughly five years out from their initial social transitions. The study found that 94 percent of the group still identified as transgender five years later. Another 3.5 percent identified as nonbinary, meaning they did not identify as boys or girls. That label wasn’t as widely used when the researchers began the study as it is today.

By the end of the study period, in 2020, 60 percent of the children had started taking either puberty-blocking drugs or hormones. The researchers are still collecting data about how many of the teenage participants had undergone gender surgeries, Dr. Olson said.

Eight children, or 2.5 percent, had switched back to the gender they were assigned at birth. Seven of them had socially transitioned before the age of 6 and transitioned back before the age of 9. The eighth child, at 11 years old, reverted after starting on puberty-blocking drugs.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/04/heal ... ntity.html



Last edited by fredpat on 17 Aug 2022, 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

fredpat
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17 Aug 2022, 12:10 am

Being in LGBT is not negative. It just a question, why some change in adulthood. The number for trans are really high, My estimates were very low. 11 studies shows 80-87% of trans teens that stop identifying as trans in adulthood.

Titled "Do children grow out of gender dysphoria?"
https://www.transgendertrend.com/children-change-minds/

Twilightprincess wrote:
Quote:
Why some teens are able to get out LGBT identity in adulthood?


Being LGBT is not negative. It's not something that one needs to "get out" of.

I think your information is way off. I hope you will share where you got those numbers. It's generally a good idea to cite one's sources. Otherwise, people will assume that you just made the evidence up or got it from a source that peddles misinformation.



Twilightprincess
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17 Aug 2022, 12:11 am

fredpat wrote:
Most likely these teen are the 80%-90% who stop identify as trans in adulthood show by the other studies.

Most likely not because the studies you are using are deeply and intrinsically flawed, as I've already established.


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fredpat
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17 Aug 2022, 12:27 am

It is a denial of data here. When 11 studies show high percentage 80%-87% of trans kids that stop the trans identity as adults.

Just do an exercise, select randomly 20 adult people around your location, no bias selection. Ask them if they identify as an LGBT preference in any period when they were teens. Many adults will ensure that during teenager days, they identify or though themselves as one of LGBT preferences and today as adults today they are no longer.
My estimates were 40%, even though, the Transgender identity desistance of 80%-87% in the studies really surpassed my estimates.

Again, why we do not have at least 40% of the overall population of adults identified as LGBT?
This is the time and society LGBT preferences are more acceptable then previous decades.
Why no adults come out as the LGBT high rates among teenager kids today ?


Twilightprincess wrote:
Please read this. Most of your "research" comes from these flawed studies.

Quote:
Most of the so called “research” on desistance is quite old (going back to the 1970s & 1980s), and most of it starts by making a number of fundamentally flawed assumptions.

The most common of these are that cross gender behaviour is:

Undesirable

An identifier of future sexuality (ie that trans feminine young people are really gay)

A reliable method of determining the above.

In other words, most cited studies didn’t even look at transgender young people, but looked at young people who displayed cross gender behaviour - otherwise known as Gender Non-Conformity, and then spuriously conflated that with homosexuality.

Another aspect to note is that much “research” has been conducted by known trans hostile clinicians, researchers and academics (such as Zucker, Bradly, Bailey and Singh, among others).

While apparently well regarded within the medical community, these figures, their views and their “research” are regarded as highly biased, deeply harmful and out of touch by the trans community at large.

It is a major and continuing issue that most research regarding transgender people is conducted by hostile cisgender (non-trans) people looking for a “cause” or “reason” to explain why trans people exist in order to push a “cure” - rather than address the prevalent transphobia in society.

The Steensma 2011 Study

The often quoted 80% statistic originates from the Desisting and persisting gender dysphoria after childhood study by Steensma et al in 2011, and to say it is deeply flawed would be an understatement.

While this particular study did indeed include some transgender young people, it had huge problems with definitions, methodology & follow up.

The key problems are:

Including participants who had been “diagnosed” using differing criteria from DSM* IV & V - mixing up young people who had dysphoria, those that had only socially transitioned and those who were non conforming. (*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

Treating those different participants as though they were all the same.

Counting participants who could not be contacted during follow up as having “desisted”

Counting participants who did not have dysphoria differently at the start and end of the study

Putting it really simply - if you start a study with 100 people, some transgender and most not - but say they are all transgender, then finish the study by counting those you lost track of, and those who weren’t really transgender to start with as having “desisted” or stopped being transgender - then you end up with an 80%+ “desistance” rate.

It has been noted that other studies suffered from the same fundamental flaws as the Steensma study above.

Interestingly however, Steensma conducted a follow up study (Factors associated with desistance and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria) in 2013 which addressed these issues and looked at a key additional factor - the intensity of gender dysphoria experienced - and the results were dramatically different.

This study found that young people who actually met the clinical guidelines for gender dysphoria as children generally ended up as transgender adults, and this was a good indicator of those who would go on to transition medically.

This makes perfect sense when considering that later, properly conducted research (Gender Cognition in Transgender Children, 2015) found that children who meet the current clinical guidelines for gender dysphoria are as consistent in their gender identity as the general population.

Dr K Zucker & the 80% claim

Dr K Zucker, formerly of the Toronto CAMH clinic, has also claimed that gender dysphoria desisted in 80 percent of cases. However, when patient files at the clinic were reviewed by independent investigators they found that 42 percent never even met the clinical criteria for juvenile gender dysphoria to start with.

Zucker and his research are no stranger to controversy, including conducting a study where prepubscent boys with gender dysphoria were rated by physical attractiveness.

The Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry noted in a 2003 report (no longer available) that Zucker’s techniques were “something disturbingly close to reparative therapy for homosexuals,” (aka Conversion Therapy), and the author of the report, Phyllis Burke, questioned the idea that transgender children should be treated as mentally ill by saying, “The diagnosis of GID* in children, as supported by Zucker and his colleagues, is simply child abuse.”

*Gender Identity Disorder was a precursor diagnosis to Gender Dysphoria.

In 2015 the CAMH clinic in Toronto was closed down and Zucker fired, following an independent investigation which noted many disturbing findings, including treatment methodology 30 years out of date, intrusive sexual questioning of children, conversion therapy practices and inappropriate photography of children, among many other issues.

It remains surprising that such a figure was given influence over young people’s lives for so long, and even more surprising that the NHS continued to work with such a figure. It is no surprise to find that the failed NHS GID service for young people suffers from many of the same issues as Zucker’s original clinic did, given it was built utilising the same model and input from Zucker.

What it does highlight is that the medical and research communities, even today, routinely ignore or refuse to listen to issues raised by transgender people. There is a dominant, prevalent culture of “we know best” that is rooted in the belief within those communities that it is preferable trans people did not exist.

Conclusion

The “Desistance” claim is a myth, junk science built upon a foundation of homophobia, transphobia, bad science and poor statistics, and promoted by those hostile to trans people of all ages in order to justify harms such as conversion therapy, denial of trans identities and removal of transgender rights.


https://www.clairestranstalks.co.uk/new ... ransgender



Twilightprincess
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17 Aug 2022, 12:36 am

fredpat wrote:
It is a denial of data here. When 11 studies show high percentage 80%-87% of trans kids that stop the trans identity as adults.
If you cited 100 flawed studies, it wouldn't make your case more valid. I think you need to learn how to determine what is or isn't decent evidence.


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fredpat
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17 Aug 2022, 12:58 am

Extraordinary evidence show 80-87% of trans kids that do no longer identify as trans in adulthood.
Titled "Do children grow out of gender dysphoria?"
https://www.transgendertrend.com/children-change-minds/

kraftiekortie wrote:
"Just because somebody experiments with gay sex----doesn't mean the person is gay."

Many teens in middle and high school today identify themselves as one of LGBT preferences in a rate never seen before in history or in adults. Many of them, have not even started to experiment sex. If we want to debate more about the experimentation, at which point the sex experimentation stop being just an experimentation and becomes an identity?
I think, what it matters is how teens identify themselves regardless of the sex experimentation.

kraftiekortie wrote:
"Extraordinary claims requite extraordinary evidence."

Saying this, I doubt what the OP said is true.

What could be true: many teens experiment with sex. Some of this experimentation includes exploring with the same gender. Just because somebody experiments with gay sex----doesn't mean the person is gay.

Anyway: so what if somebody is LBQT+. No skin off my back.



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17 Aug 2022, 1:10 am

fredpat wrote:
Extraordinary evidence show 80-87% of trans kids that do no longer identify as trans in adulthood.

The thing is that your evidence is not extraordinary. It's flawed.


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magz
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17 Aug 2022, 2:55 am

Sorry for being blunt with you but I think you're just clutching to any hope that someone close to you may "grow out" of being trans and that's the key to what you trust and what you don't trust.
It's called wishful thinking.


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17 Aug 2022, 8:15 am

fredpat wrote:
transgendertrend.com
"Transgender Trend" is an anti-Trans hate group specifically founded to attack an alleged "trans narrative" in the UK.  They falsely argue that gender dysphoria in children is the result of "simple social contagion" via "rapid-onset gender dysphoria" which is not recognized by any major professional association as a valid mental health diagnosis.

In other words, "Transgender Trend" -- and its founder, Stephanie Davies-Arai -- relies on quack science, flawed data, and fallacious reasoning to fabricate an anti-trans narrative that seeks to restrict or eliminate prescribing puberty-blocking drugs or medical interventions to help pre-adults with their gender-correction procedures.

Thus, your original thesis was inherently flawed before it was even started.


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The_Walrus
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17 Aug 2022, 11:52 am

This is a forum dedicated primarily to our LGBT+ userbase. It is therefore not an appropriate place to uncritically regurgitate queerphobic propaganda. I would suggest reading the actual literature on the subject.