Voynich DO you like Unsolved Mystery?

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please look at pic
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/voynich.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8389/voygal1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript
[large broken cut&paste replaced by link to intact Wikipedia version, by lau]

Last edited by ensabah6 on 03 Apr 2009, 7:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.

I've never heard of this, sounds awesome. I did a quick search and I can't find a comprehensive archive of all the pages (only samples, or links that I am "not authorized" to see)... Where are you doing your research on this?

well google but here's one place after wiki
http://www.voynick.net/
http://math.ucr.edu/home/bae/voynich.html

I tried to post a list of links for you, but the moderator would not let me... something about being a new user. It would not allow me to post any html. But I have a list of links at the bottom of my page... maybe this will work: put "santa-coloma" voynich in google, and my page will come up at the top.

On my page, the first link in "external links" is the high resolution scans. The second is a faster loading set of scans, which will let you see the pages rapidly.

Have fun! Rich.

Oh I have.

Pictures of fantasy plants Ok.
Unknown astrology ok.
naked women in what looks like organ-plumbing -- WTF???

What do you think of the pictures (as text is untranslated)

My theory is that the Voynich was written between 1610 and 1620, and that it was meant to look like an old text from the fictional island of Bensalem, as in Francis Bacon's science fiction story, "The New Atlantis". So as for the naked woman in baths, there are two references to baths in the New Atlantis. One describes baths which the men and woman can take, while being observed by the friends of a potential suitor. The other is the use of healing baths, with special tinctured water. But some may be allegorical of chemical processes, natural phenomenon, etc.

From the top of my site, "The theory suggests the Voynich was made between 1610 and 1620, was made to look older than it was, that it includes a map of the fictional Bensalem, and includes real and fanciful representations of optics, flora and fauna, astronomy and astrology. I feel it has content that would befit a book meant to reflect the spirit and subject matter of Bacon's seminal science fiction. The theory further supposes that it may have been created by Drebbel, or under his influence... and that it exhibits the the influences of the circle of his near contemporaries and their world, these including Bacon, Shakespeare, Jonson, De Caus, Andreae, Maier, Forman and Fludd, among others."

One factor which I feel is overlooked, a clue which is there but not accounted for, is the very fact that almost every single image, character, style, object is enigmatic. Everything is evocative of some known culture, science, or discipline, while "just missing" every one of them. As a representative artifact of The New Atlantis, however, it fits very well... because the NA describes the unusual and unknown. It actually describes unknown plants and animals, unknown practices, sciences, inventions, writing, culture, etc. If the Voynich was a "real" herbal or pharmaceutical work, it would have something close to existing, known, texts. The fact that it misses all of them so well, is in my opinion, an indication that this was intentional. Check out the site if you have a chance... Sorry I cannot post the link here, I'm 3 posts away from permission! Proto57.

Hey there.

I've visited several other websites
http://www.voynich.nu/
www.voynichcentral.com
www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/rugg.html -

and thus far I've read Kennedy's The Voynich Manuscript: The Mysterious Code That Has Defied Interpretation for Centuries

as well as visit unsolved mystery's forum and voynich.nu's archive of forum posting/emails

I did not read, but I've seen many references to D'Imperio book.

While many specialties have weighed in on some parts -- botanists, paleographers, hand writing experts, psychologists, etc., I see three groups who have shown the most interest

-- linguists,
-- medieval historians (European)
-- cryptologists and related (i.e computational code breaking)

I plan to restrict myself to "plausible" historical, non-supernatural (i.e inspired by UFO's, or survivors of Atlantis or Cathars worshipping Isis) type understanding.

I'm not sure I've heard the Francis Bacon theory, I've heard it alleged that Roger Bacon.

It's not clear to me what is "definitely" universally accepted. For example, identification of the sunflower and spiral galaxy and cells and two hand writings are disputed. Gordon Rugg's "this is a hoax with Cartan Grille" is disputed, as is the importance of the text following Zipf's law. There is some speculation due to the absence of correction marks, that the book itself may be a copy. (Which may mean the original is from a much older period).

From a crypoanalysis viewpoint, I've thought it might at least be possible to identify words like "plant, herbal, stem, root, leaf, flower" from comparing words that only appear in the herbal section, to the remainder. It might be possible to identify plant names by comparing unique words only in each unique plant drawing and no where else. The other drawings are too unclear to be of use in this way.

From an interpretative viewpoint, some non-wiki suggestions I've heard is that given the women look pregnant (although some say that this is a taste for fat women) this is some kind of menstrual-fertility-female oriented text.

Obviously without a decipherment, it's hard to say whether the author intended each section (i.e herbal, astrological, biological) to be self-contained or they are all somehow related.

Your theory dates it to within 10 years. I know there's no carbon dating. I've wondered whether there was a reason the water in those baths is green rather than blue or red. Only naked women are in those baths, not men.

I agree about the enigmatic---I imagine that a medieval historian who has studied other medieval scripts from this time period, if they saw other drawings similar to this, would have pointed out. The most "similar" I've heard to alluded is Hildegard of Bingen.

I agree about the enigmatic, even by standards of medievalism. Given the author wrote in an unknown script, with unrecognizable plants, astrology, and "plumbing" I agree that is significant.

Ive seen the Atlantis theory but not The New Atlantis theory. I googled and I infer your site is
http://www.santa-coloma.net/voynich_dre ... ynich.html

Those images (i.e microscope, diatoms & plants as roots of the sunflower) you have could be coincidence. The spiral galaxy image is after all disputed. The cells and diatoms could be stones and coins or sand dollars, if they represent nature at all.

The nymphs in the bath could be a healing tincture, but could be making an alcohol wine like substance from the plants/herbals.

The nymphs are in baths ok sure, but those baths look like organs like stomach and intestine and fallopian tubes or seminiferous tubes that are connected to one another. In some pictures, the nymphs are sticking their arms in the mouths of those tubes. Does Bacon's New Atlantis describe this?

This individual disputes some of the microscope similarities
http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2008/03/ ... oto-optics

"Thirdly, the claimed presence of knurled edges in the VMs’ images would only make sense if used in conjunction with a fine screwthread, to enable the vertical position of an element along the optical axis to be varied: but I’m not sure when these were invented or adapted for microscopes."

Others have interpreted these as medicinal jars.

I suppose one scenario that might have been profitable is for the unknown author to claim to Rudolph that this text came from New Atlantis (or Old Atlantis) and so drew some images to make it look that, while remaining uncipherable text. That's a lot of work though, and there's the risk that the would-be buyer may refuse. Gordon Rugg acknowledges it might take a couple of months with a Cardan Grille and vellum and drawing pictures would increase costs.

Some of the pictures do have labels, in Voynichese. But why write in an unknown script, and also not provide a key?
If Bacon wanted a universal language, why create a new and unknown script rather than say adapting Roman script? At the least a universal script I would expect to be picture based.

How do you explain some of the material in New Atlantis that is not in VM, male students, and material in VM that does not apparently appear in NA (i.e moon face surrounded by petals) did the author write the book for others to read?

An important theme in NA is college-University. Is there a reason there does not appear to be clear depictions of classrooms and researchers? What about say the non-presence of Athens and Socrates or Plato or Aristotle images for learning and classroom and research?

If your theory is correct, then doesn't that put strong constraints on the original language of the author of VM, esp English or Latin? If so, how is it it has defied computer-cryptanalysis? Would studying Bacon's known ciphers help in breaking this one?





PS it sort of occurred to me you signed up only yesterday, and this is your 2nd post, with your first as a response.

Hi, ensabah6:

I usually stay on the VMS-net, which is a mailing list (linked on my site). All the posts can be found at the Voynich Monkeys, which you can Google, but is also linked to my site. Most of the people on the mailing list are long time Voynich researchers, and most of them do not believe that most, or all, of my theories are correct. I rarely if ever post feedback outside the list. But I was curious what the feedback would be from someone who just came across the VMs, cold. The questions you have asked have been asked of me, on and off the list, but you have given a fresh viewpoint. Also, now that time has gone by, and more of my theory's opponents have revised and posted rebuttals... not in the form of rebuttals, but in a couched effort to address my points, outside the list, without describing my position... I did wonder if these rebuttals would effect the overall impression of my ideas, or the Voynich in general.

The idea of my theory is very simple... and is really the simplest of all of the ones I have seen. It needs little rationalization of the contents of the VMs, or shift in the known history of the VMs. The main "problem", if it is one, is that it goes against the previous beliefs of the origins and purpose of the VMs, which have become entrenched in the mind set of the investigation. I believe that this mind set has set up certain indefensible prejudices, which are not based on any more evidence than mine is, but nonetheless hold sway. The irony is that almost every one of these other theories contradict each other in profound ways, and so, they cannot all be correct.

By the way, I have no idea what the Voynich is, when it was made, who made it, or why. No one does. It very well may be an early 15th century herbal, or a 16th century pharmaceutical, for all I know. I cannot make it something it is not, anymore than anyone else can. I'm only exploring my little corner of the subject as best I can, and looking at the evidence I find, and interpreting it, as best I can. I have had to change and discard more than I have kept, but what is left, I feel, is quite plausible. Correct I do not know, but plausible, yes... arguably, based on the known evidence, and what I have uncovered in my investigation, it is... IMO.

(the forum made me take out the links again) The first is Rene Zandbergen's site. He is one of the best researchers in the field, having uncovered much new information on the Voynich, in person... including an unknown letter and signature relating to the history. He absolutely disagrees with me, that the VMs could be as new as I propose. The second is run by Glen Claston, or GC. He believes he knows what the VMs is, and has translated parts of it. He has been very vocal about my theories, and absolutely believes I am wrong... and has said so in some not so flattering ways. He believes that the VMs was written by Anthony Asham, or Askam, in the mid 16th century. This is work based on the work of Dr. Strong. The third is Gordon Rugg's. He believes he found that the VMs could have been made as gibberish, using a grille method. He does not know it is gibberish, he only believes he can prove it was possible. I agree with him, and his work, that it is possible it is gibberish. Neither of us know. I have written to him about my theories... he does not know one way or the other, but believes Kelly may have forged it, with his method or one like it.



Glad to hear it... not that there is anything wrong with the supernatural, except that once one accepts it, then anything is possible, and nothing can be known. Like you, I believe there is some pragmatic explanation for the VMs.



That's because the "Francis Bacon" theory is mine, and does not presume that Francis wrote the VMs... only that it is an artifact (of some kind) of his New Atlantis. No other theory that I know of thinks that Francis had anything to do with the VMs, either directly or in influence. The Roger Bacon theory holds little sway today... he was suspected by many soon after the VMs was found, including Wilfred Voynich himself, and also Romaine Newbold, the brilliant but misguided investigator, whose translation and interpretation is now considered a disaster of self-delusion. The term "Newbold" is actually hurled around the VMs community by those attacking new theories, during some heated debates.



You hit the nail on the head... nothing is "universally" accepted. GC recently claimed he had the prevailing theory. But I think the theory with the most adherents is that this is an early to mid 15th century herbal, with a latest date of about 1460, written in code to either protect proprietary recipes and cures, or to protect the writer against claims of heresy, devil worship, or political or cultural insurrection.



Yes, a very good idea, and this is the premier point of entry into the secrets. Many have tried, as recently as last week! I personally found, in Ethel Voynich's notes, a previously unknown notebook trying to establish the identity of the plants, presumably for just this purpose.



They could be pregnant. But I hold that the woman's usual form reflects the Dutch Mannerist style, i.e., they are often described as "Rubenesque". This supports my time frame, and the Dutch influence I feel is there. But there are, contrary to my theory, instances of herbals and other art showing woman in baths, healing and otherwise.



Wow you are on the case. You have come up with, in a very short time, almost every issue, question, observation I have seen in four or so years of this. And yes, this is an open question.



Not having men in baths does work against the theory that these are F. Bacon's communal baths from The New Atlantis. But the colored waters should not be unusual for healing baths found in The New Atlantis, or in any previous work describing them. Color might represent a specific liquid solution, or simply would be a generic choice of an artist to portray such a solution. I don't know.



Yes, the New Atlantis theory, and that link, are mine. It has nothing to do with the Atlantis described by Plato, except in that F. Bacon wrote his story based on Plato's.



Yes, I agree, they could all be coincidence.



The myphs/baths/tubes could well be allegorical representations of organs, as you mention. As for the New Atlantis, no, it does not specifically mention the woman's arms in tubes, nor does it mention, specifically, much of what is in the Vms. What it does mention is: Grafted plants, unidentifiable plants and animals, artificial language, optics, nudes in baths, healing baths, astronomy and astrology, new and unknown sciences, a unique culture, ancient texts, and contains Rosicrucian overtones and imagery... to give a few of the aspects of the Vms which I do feel relate it to the New Atlantis. Much from the New Atlantis is missing... but to be clear, I am not proposing that the VMs is a representation OF the New Atlantis, only that it could be an artifact made to look as though it came from Bensalem. Think, "Bible of New Atlantis", which would be very similar to the Book of Solomon, or the Book M of the Rosicrucian movement... either would be made to look ancient, be written in cipher, and contain unknown plants, animals, cultural influence, and unknown sciences. And in any case, allegorical representations of alchemal and natural phenomonom was quite common in the time frame I suspect, by the people I suspect. For instance, see Maier's Atlalantia Fugiens.



Yes, that is the work of Nick Pelling. He is the main opponent to my theories. He came out with his book about the time my first article came out. Nick fought long and heatedly on the VMS-net list, against the notion that the VMs contains optics. At the same time, his book proposed that the sunflowers were a disguised car, and other flowers were disguised gear trains, and so on. But then, over time, he began much work looking for early optics... I would suppose, because he mentions me (as optics in the Voynich are my theory), that this was because he began to wonder if my seeing optics could be correct. However, he does not believe that the VMs could have been written during the period such optics are accepted as having existed. Therefore he looked earlier... even going so far as writing an article on possible, early, Spanish origins of the telescope for a major history magazine (you see? Not Dutch.. Spanish). Ironically, Pelling's site comes up number one in Google for a search using "voynich" and "optics". Ironic, seeing as he was the world's major opponent, only a year ago, to my optical theories. But unfortunately, theatrics and obsfucation are part and parcel to a large part of the VMs community... I think it stems from some sense that the VMs is being written, as opposed to having been written. By the way, he is entirely wrong about knurling indicating a fine screw thread... knurling was clearly used on wooden microscopes, with crude, or even, no threads at all. And also, by the way, he must know that.



That is the general thought. Either medicinal (as in pharmaceutical, or "pharma"), or herbal containers. Only some believe that optics are the best possible match, for some of the jars, as I do. Yes, some others are better matches for jars.



I suppose that is one scenario, although I do not suppose that selling it was necessarily the reason one would have created it. I have many other scenarios to explain it's creation, within the parameters of of my theories. I don't believe it was made for Rudolf at all, or that he necessarily even saw it before he died in 1612. Sure it could have taken a couple of months. There are many other, IMO good, reasons for it's creation, within the parameters of my theories.



Well again I don't necessarily believe that F.Bacon wrote this. But as for unknown script, it is exactly what someone creating a "Bible of New Atlantis" would use. It would have to look alien to Europeans, as it was from a fictional, far-off island. And the Book of Solomon and the Book M were both written in cipher, and the book the Bensalites found was written in a mysterious universal language. Much like a prop book for Star Trek might be written in Klingon, one would chose such a language for the purposes I propose. Making a faux "Book of Bensalem" in a known character would have ruined this effect. As for providing a key, perhaps it was provided... and was either lost, or is in the VMs, and is so far, not noticed. The pages f57 (v, I think...) and the last page have been suggested as containing a key, among others.



I don't have an explanation for why specific elements do not appear in the VMs from New Atlantis, except as described above... i.e., that it is not a direct representation of the story of NA, but only meant to look as though it may have come from the fictional Bensalem. Also, it would have been created while the New Atlantis was forming in Bacon's mind, and while some unknowns, early manuscript form of it was circulating (a whole other story/post in that alone) As for Athens, Socrates, et al... no reason why or why not, IMO... any more than every herbal should have an image of Paracelcus, or every Astronomical of Copernicus. That being said, independantly, and somewhat uncomforably to the Vms community, some faces in the Vms have been surmised to represent a beardless Tycho Brahe and Kepler. Someone even suggested Brahe was added, as "we all know" he lived and died long after the VMs was created! As for the classrooms, etc., good point, but they are also, not described in the story of Bacon... so we do not know what they should look like. However, the College of the Six Day's work, aka the "House of Solomon", is described as being at the "eye of Bensalem". The most promonant structure... the six columned plaza, or building, or whatever... is right at the center of the VMs "rosettes" page... which I surmise could be a map of Bensalem.



I wouldn't know if my theories would necessarily limit the language to English or Latin. Dutch and Walloon are possible, too, or really, any other, or none at all. As for defying computers, that is a good question... and one which the Bletchley Park and NSA people would love (or have loved) an answer to. One major problem, as I understand it, is that the input to any computer program will vary according to an individual's interpretation of what constitutes an individual VMs character. Some connected characters can be separated, or used together. This will throw off the input in significant ways. Also, much may be "filler", also throwing off computer analysis. Also, if an artificial language of some kind, it would defy this type of method... and so on, with many permutations, there are many reasons it may have defied computer programs.

Thank you so much for this opportunity to discuss the Voynich with one new to the Voynich. I hope you do not mind my personal and biased opinions... at the same time, please understand I have the most respect for those holding some very tenable theories, which very well may be the correct ones. I hope I am giving a balanced feedback, in any case. Proto57

Hello proto57,

Thanks for replying. Well my feedback comes from someone cold

Is your theory more consistent with the text being meaningful (hence decipherable) or gibberish?

Nick Pelling also argued that the text is not an encoding of a natural language, due to certain linguistic properities that one language might have one (i.e frequently repeated words, low entropy) but almost no known language would have all of them. There is the romantic idea that this text is the last surviving text of a culture and civilization -- like Ranogono.

I guess I'll let you and NIck debate the microscope. Another idea I thought might be it's a "tower" and yes when I google for VM his comes up.

The picture of the woman who looks like in a field picking wheat, looks to me like she's among eggs, scales, or on a cloud.

I understand no one knows who made it or why, still Given that the script is unintelligble, obviously other avenues need to be explored. Some pictures can be understood. In evaluating your NA or other theories I would like to see addressed: who was the intended audience. Who in the Middle Ages read books with illustrations similar to this? In your theory I infer the intended audience are those who have heard of NA. Given limitations of press and literacy of the day, I do wonder how large an audience this is. How would writing a book that purports to be an example of NA further the author's interest? I'd imagine a book that purports to be of divine-angelic origins, written in an angelic language, or connecting to Jesus, would have a larger potential audience, given the times.

I've also heard some of the drawings resemble Hildegard of Bingen, like Universal man and the idea of constructed language Ignota lingua. Could it be the author was familar with Ignota lingua and wanted to draw and write about his visitation of the astral-angelic sphere? Would the intended audience be more familar with NA or Hildegard?
It doesn't appear the intended audience would be religiously devout Christians or Muslims.

I understand you argue that it is an example of NA, but how about it being example of pure fantasy unconnected with any prior narrative? For example, I've not heard Luigi Serafini Codex Seraphinianus to be connected to say Star Trek or LOTR. I suppose if the current generation is completely wiped out, future generations were to discover it, they might find a picture here or there that might look like it came from Klingons, written in Elvish.

The text might be gibberish, does Rugg have any comments on the pictures? If it is gibberish obviously then this strengthens the idea it was created specifically as a hoax. The text doesn't seem to have any corrections, which would be consistent with this idea and unusual if the author was concerned with accuracy.

In your theory do you see it as a "hoax" to swindle Rudolph some money? The issue I have with that is how much would it cost and how many months would it take to create a document of this length and complexity? And what if Rudolph said, "thanks but no thanks" or "sure I'll buy it --- for $5." Do any of Rudolph's library survive? Are there other herbal or astrological books in his library? If it is hoax, how often in the MA did hoaxes write a long picture detailed manuscript with no guarantee they could sell and, and at an unknown price, given there were other hoaxes also writing their own detailed hoaxes, in competition with known books. It'd be like getting published today.


I'd like to know whether there are other medieval books that have herbal drawings that like VM do NOT correspond to known plants, or astrology that do NOT correspond to known astrological systems (in other words, how common is that?) and how many books have both plants and astrology in the same book? (not two topics I'd associate with one another, except, perhaps alchemically)

re:claims of heresy and devil worship and encrypting it for that reason, that would tell us about the intended audience and reason for encryption. The intended audience would of course need a way to decode it. While I doubt the book would be destroyed for having pictures of plants, wouldn't the authorities find it suspicious the pictures show astrology and naked women? If the message in the text is to assassinate the pope, why not only draw pictures of plants to lead astray?

Also, how common is it to have drawings of naked women in medieval books? The thought it might be of prurient intent of course occurred, although if so, I'd show nude women from different angles.

Between women as pregnant and women as Rubenesque, which would work better in your NA framework of interpretation, as well as predicting whether each section is connected or whether each section is self-contained. I'm glad you acknowledge that you would expect that the pools have at least some examples of naked males if it was intended to be an example of NA.

When the NA was read, was it understood by its author and audience to be describing a real world or the whole work as fiction?

Do we have "diaries" of Spanish and Portuguese conquistadors/missionaries as they explored the New World? Presumably such a book would have pictures, and by comparing such pictures to VM we could get some ideas of how this time period noted new discoveries.


The urban legend about Newbold is that he became insane attempting to decipher this. I don't know if he became insane, and if he did, it was due to this. Fun urban legend to say though. Urban legend says Nietzsche became insane for denying God.


What do we know about the kind of people that would be interested in a book like this? For example, how does this book's herbal section pictures compare with others, this book's astrology section pictures to pictures of known, and are there other examples of medieval books with copious drawings of naked women? Are there other medieval books with sections of astrology adjacent to herbal, herbal adjacent to naked women, or naked women with herbal?

It's my understanding that the numbers were added later, and dispute that some of the pages are in sequence. Do we even know that the sections are in sequence? Or that all of the sections were together in one book, and not put together in one book at a later time? I am not sure though having one sequence, say the astrology, before the nymphs or after would clarify overall interpretation.

Personally I think that the simplest theory would be that it is an a de novo original production by someone like Luigi Serafini creating something like Codex Seraphinianus, or Lingua Ignota by Hildegard of Bingen, a lone individual who created this script for his own satisfaction. The original author may not have intended anyone else to read it, and presumably he had other examples in this script which are now lost to history. My view is somewhat similar to yours, in that he tried to describe some fantasy world, as that is the most straightforward explanation for his choice of drawing non-real plants etc.

The person died, and another individual found the book, and in the chain of custody, someone decided they could make money to Rudolph selling it as an alchemical herbal book, and obviously persuaded him of this. Had Rudolph refused, the owner might have just tossed the book in the ash heap.

Hello ensabah6:

Not really either. I believe it could be either. I couldn't really say even what it is, with any level of certainty. I have worked on certain methods (as the amateur that I am), but I can't even say these methods are "favorites", only that I suspect they may be in the realm of possible.


I wouldn't know, exactly. Except that in general, as a work of art, theater or literature (even one-off) did. As a gift, or part of a performance piece. My suspected circle of influence was very involved in theater, and the masque, especially surrounding the betrothal and wedding of Princess Elizabeth (daughter of James I and Queen Anne) with Frederick V. Francis Bacon produced a masque, and Shakespeare's the Tempest was performed. It is believed the wedding scene in the Tempest was added for their wedding. It is also surmised, although not known, that Shakespeare may have performed as Prospero in this production. The effort and expense which went into these performances and surrounding celebrations was staggering, even by today's standards. A hand made faux book, representing a popular, although as yet unpublished story, may fit in there somewhere... exactly where, I can't say.


You are probably correct that such a book would have a larger audience. But I do not know if the intended audience for this book was large, or small, or just one person. But in any case, as for religious symbolism (which is often noted as being scarce in the Voynich), the New Atlantis does make reference to religious belief and imagery. However, the point is that as a science based culture and government, the investigation of nature, and experimentation, would take precedence in the society. This was part and parcel to the Rosicrucian movement, which was in essence, a Protestant movement. The freedom of experiment and expression which the people of "my circle" saw in the Protestant cause all over Europe was the main reason for he excitement over the wedding of Elizabeth and Frederick (the new hope for the Protestant cause), and the reason their nuptials are symbolically represented in the Rosicrucian Chymical Wedding. I see the lack of Jesus, and other religious symbolism, in the Voynich, as fitting well with the New Atlantis, and much of the thrust of this movement.


Certainly it could be, if fantasy, related many things, or nothing known. I see many things which point to it being connected to the NA, but sure... perhaps it is fresh, and a new fantasy representation, of something previously unknown.


I don't recall Rugg's opinion on the images. He has been wonderful in explaining his work and thought process, you should (and I will, again) look over his pages. As for it being a hoax, I don't suppose it is. I see it more as a faux book, but not necessarily to deceive anyone, as is the intention of a hoax.


Although I give a range of 1610 to 1620, and I originally believed it was created in, or up to, Drebbel's time in Rudolf's court, I actually would suspect a dating of around 1612 to 1617. But in any case, I do not see it as a hoax to swindle Rudolf. I know this is a popular theory, based on the fact that the Marci letter states Rudolf "paid the bearer 600 ducats". There are many reasons that on examination, this statement is not clearly related to a known fact of the Voynich.


Yes, I believe so, in both cases. There is a catalog of Rudolf's Kunstkammer in some libraries... I went to New York City to see one of them... which list many books of his. What books he is known to have owned, though, I can't say, although I think I have heard of this...


Nowhere in the NA is such an attempt at a hoax mentioned. I understand your point, I think, but I don't suppose that such an attempt would be mentioned. The definition of what I suspect the Voynich is, is quite different from this. Another way to visualize what I am proposing is a "prop book", such as one made for a play or movie. Only in this case, a "prop book" for the story of the New Atlantis. The idea of the ancient mysterious tome, containing arcane but profound, lost, knowledge, is a theme of great interest to those back in the time I am studying, and even, today. There are many instances of people creating faux books, with faux sciences and religions, and with faux characters and languages. I would list my "faux books" links here... but I am not up to five posts yet, I don't think!


Well there you have hit on another important point. Because yes, there are such books... but it is the interpretation of "why" they are unusual plants which brings in the subjective interpretation of the investigator. The "experts" will say that the plants in the Voynich are unidentifiable not because they are fantasy plants, but because plants were not drawn well "back then". As for plants and astrology together, yes, I think there are other examples... but both unusual and "incorrect", or unidentifiable? I think not at all. There is always some reason the work is unclear, and then, it can be interpreted to a time and possibly an author, and certainly, and intent. The intent of the enigmatic nature of the Voynich is unknown, and therefore I reject that in every case within it, it is simply a matter of a "poor artist".


All good reasoning, IMO.


Not so common in medieval books... but in Dutch mannerist art, early 17th century, very common. When this crosses the line from "art" to "prurient" has of course always been an issue... and still is.


As for pregnant or Rubenesque, I'd say "Rubenesque". The body form of the women in the Voynich has been noted as such, long before I came on the VMs scene. Which of course is interesting, since Rubens lived long after most theories. They do not for the most part look pregnant to me. As for the lack of men, yes of course I must acknowledge that, and I do not have an explanation. For the lack of a submarine, which is mentioned in the New Atlantis published version, but not seen in the Voynich, I do. Drebbel built his submarine in 1619/20, and so, it would have been added to the story after any earlier version. But tubes to carry/transmit sound, as Della Porta and others experimented with, existed in "my" time frame, and appear in the New Atlantis. There was a "House of Sound" on Bensalem... see the upper left rosette.


As a fiction. There were other fictions read by some as real... such as the Prestor John mythology, and the Rosicrucian mythology. Known by some as the fantasies they were, and by some, as not. But I believe it was understood... at least from publication on... that the New Atlantis was a myth. However, Bacon and others based this mythology that the theory that the America's might have been the original Atlantis, destroyed by a deluge.


Yes, quite. See Hernandez, and Harriot. The former drew the flora and fauna, and noted the customs of the Native Americans. Harriot studied the Algonquin language, and even invented his own characters and alphabet, as he saw that Latin could not adequately transcribe the speech. Many more examples exist, of the English and Spanish bringing back notes of the New World, and illustrations of what they saw. No room here for all that... As for how this would relate to the VM, it has been independently done. In fact, there is one theory (Jim Comegys) that the VMs is written in Nahuatl (spelling?). And other New World influences have been independently noted in the VMs... Also note that some have always believed the sunflower appears in the Voynich. I believe there is an armadillo. Both fascinated Europeans, and were seen as iconic representations of the New World. See my armadillo page, linked to my site...


All of this is important, and up to the individual who is interested in the Voynich. The answer may still lie in some other book, some other culture, language or discipline. Considering that neither I, nor anyone else, knows the answer, the questions and points you mention are all excellent avenues. Compare, compare, compare... I don't write all this to dissuade you or anyone from looking everywhere and anywhere, for clues which are new, or counter mine or anyone else's theories.


I would recommend Nick Pelling's "The Curse of the Voynich" for this reason. I have yet to meet anyone who concurs with his Averlino Theory, but for his work on the quires, numbering, and ordering of pages, his book is almost universally considered the best source. And there is an excellent recent discussion, going on on Nick's "Cipher Mysteries" blog, between him and Glen Claston. I don't know what all the implications of the ordering and numbering are, or how they apply to any one theory... but they are certainly "on the case".


Well then you would be amazed and astounded the resistance I meet to the remotest, mere iota of a possibity that one vellum pore of the Voynich is inked with anything vaguely fantasy! A great and long argument was heartily dived into, by many experts, explaining why the Voynich must be entirely real. No kidding. Look for the "Tower in a Hole" argument, in the old posts at the Voynich Monkeys. But as for your thoughts... I like them, and concur with you that they are very plausible.


Entirely plausible, again. I happen to be looking in a different time frame for clues to my theories, but it is excellent that others are looking just about everywhere else, too. For you ideas you could also look to all the people who may have done just what you imagine, and for unpublished documents and manuscripts in collections, which just might have a similar look, or character, or drawing to the VMs. We certainly need more people on the case. Whatever it is, I certainly want to "know before I go". Well that and see a landing of man on woman/man on Mars. I hope there is still time for me... Proto57

Hi,

The idea of the ancient mysterious tome, containing arcane but profound, lost, knowledge, is a theme of great interest to those back in the time I am studying, and even, today.

Definitely. In antiquity the Gnostics believed they had secret gospels of the true Jesus, i.e Gospel of Thomas.

I've been looking at The Voynich Manuscript: The Mysterious Code That Has Defied Interpretation for Centuries by Gerry Kennedy and Rob Churchill, as well as Nick Pelling's site. I see that he enterains the idea
that the plants show how best to be pruned, which could be a good theory if they can be identified.

They have a couple of color plates showing Hildegard's starry drawings which bear a resemblance to the astrology section I would finding it surprising if some are against the idea it's entirely fantasy! Hildegard is said to have suffered from migraines, and if she did, then perhaps VM author did. It could also be fantasy fiction like Lord of the Rings.
Also, what you identify as an armadillo they suggest is a dragon, and it does appear to be breathing fire. I suspect a lot of artwork, esp smaller and on the margins, are probably decoration. Some of the women hold what looks like magic wands or star-shaped balloons. The book also has pictures of jars which the microscopes also resemble. Personally if it is a herbal or alchemical text, I would think jars to contain potions would make more sense than a microscope.

Seems like overkill for the VM to be intended as an example of NA, in length and complexity.


Is it reasonably established that the script can be attributed to Italy sometime in second 15th century? The script appears cursive so that would narrow the field as the author's original script/language involved cursive writing.

How does VM compare with known handwriting exemplars of the usual suspects?

I agree with Pelling that some of the pages are out of sequence. While this suggests someone other than the author bound the material together, and that perhaps the sections are self-contained, I'm curious as to what most scholars think. has been scholar attempts to look at the frequency of words in the various sections. It might be one way to decide between interrelations of the three sections vs self-contained.


I am aware of the claim there are two handwritings present, called A and B. Without punctuation it's probably guesswork as to the length of sentence.

I know that botanists for the most part have been unable to identify the plants, even using stylized herbal pictures present in europe, perhaps the plants are themselves sort of scrambled, not grafted, but the author decided to create chimeras of flower of one plant with roots of another and leaves of a third. Are botantists able to identify each leaf/stem/root individually and independent of the remainder of the plant? Perhaps the pictures are drawn as such to help show what combination of herbs are needed for the potion.

In addition to some standard objections to the sunflower (i.e wild sunflowers do not look like that) is that if the author drew random fantasy plants, given flowers and leaves, by coincidence it might look like a real plant.

So how does VM compare to Hernandez, and Harriot, or for that matter, what exactly does a representative medieval alchemical, herbal, astrological text look like?

Yes, I'd like to see if this cipher if it is not gibberish cracked to

The pregnancy view of course deals with fertility, and they may not be 9 months, perhaps like 3 months. A bit of fat though could also mean good health.

In addition to two handwritings A and B, is there any certainty that the person who wrote either A or B also drew the pictures? It might be partially established based on handwriting style.

Drawing "astrology" according to certain cultural conventions is one thing, deviating from it is hard to understand. The plants also deviate.

Even when Latin could not capture a Native language like Nahuatl, many latin letters were used, same with pin ying. If VM is an attempt to transcribe an unknown language, and it was written in Italy, it's hard to imagne the author NOT using as many latin characters that is a phonological match to the target language. Hence, it's either code or gibberish or a lost language.

The apparent fact that the text doesn't seem to have any corrections like cross lines, even though it is handwritten (there are some characters though that seem blotted out) makes me think hoax -- even in native language it's pretty difficult to handwrite something for 200+ pages without some error corrections.

So do you think letter to Marci is a hoax, as it seems to be mistaken on the detail of the ducats and Rudolph?

Hi, ensabah6:

You've written an nteresting post, as usual... any response would need a few links, I think... I wrote one, but it seems I need a few more days to post it... there is a five day minimum for me to post links, in addition to the five post minimum... I'll keep the post I wrote, and put it up in a couple of days when the forum allows it. Take care, proto57

Sure coincidentally Nick Pelling writes of a high school student who won some lingusitic/crytpology awards for his VM analysis. Maybe in 8 years time when he writes his phD he'll have it solved.

http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/04/ ... ience-fair

this individual is discussing mitchonese

http://voynichthoughts.wordpress.com/

so you want to see a person on mars?

Another VM type mystery that has numerous phD and scholars and engineers weighin on is the famous Bigfoot Peterson-Gimlin film

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showforum=35

fake or real? As with VM, every little frame blot of color is analyzed

ensabah6:

Just a note to let you know that I am still banned from posting links on the forum... it must be a glitch or something. I have saved my post, and tried several times... and the forum moderator is very nice and has been trying to figure out where the bug is... I've been registered over five days, and have enough posts... so there is a bug someplace in the system.

I'll try again in a day or so, and see if it is fixed... just wanted you to know I am interested in the conversation, and have a response which might be of some interest. Take care, proto57

Hi, ensabah6:

If you are reading this, it worked! Here is my saved reply, from a few days ago:

I see signs of grafting, but not pruning. Someone asked the question about the viability of grafting green stemmed plants, or like that... I mean, rather than a fruit tree, for instance. I don't know much about the process


I think they are referring to the dragon on the bottom of page f25r, and not the creature I refer to, on f80v:


Maybe I'm wrong on that, and they mean the f80v as the dragon. Anyway, here is my armadillo page:
http://www.santa-coloma.net/voynich_drebbel/armadillo.html


I understand that reasoning. If the VMs represents optics at the time I suggest, it would be the only one ever seen, anyway. So we don't know what they would have done, and are left with reasoning based on previous examples. Therefore, jars make more sense... it is relatable to us.


It does to most people, me included. The trouble is that people do this, and have done this... I mean, gone through great efforts to create in intricate detail books, and other works of art, with little or no expectation of monetary gain. One example I came across was:
http://derekthebard.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html
Here is a "grimore as art" project:
http://grimoiresgalore.blogspot.com/2008/02/completed-grimoire.html
The time, effort and energy which went into a Jacobean play/masque set, prop and costume is extraordinary, so I don't see such a work at the time being at all unreasonable. Again, exactly for what purpose, I don't know... I only know that humans have been compelled to do such things, and more... and are even today.


There is much disagreement on the script's date and origins. Italy, Germany and England are some proposals. As for usual suspects, I'm not sure who else has tried a comparison. My Drebbel comparsion, on my site, is a layman's approach of course... not being a handwriting expert. However I have not found a closer match to the "a, o, and c" in Maier, Bacon, Harriot, or Bushell. I do know that some script is considered later 16th century, and so for 15th century proponants, it is assumed to have been added after the VMs creation.


Yes this is an area of great interest. You can find much discussion on this, and everything else, here:
http://www.gameszoo.org/voynichmonkeys/



Your last sentence is a possible explanation. But as for "chimeras", I do think that is the case, exactly. From New Atlantis:



If one were to illustrate the above, fictional, concepts of Bacon's, then the VMs plants are exactly how one would do it, IMO. They would scramble known plants, invent new ones, show grafting, etc. I accept that there are many other possible reasonings for the odd plants, but I see my theory as a pretty close fit. And yes, I agree the sunflower may be coincidence.


As for Harriot/Algonquin, you will see he made up mostly new characters. As for Nahuatl, I do not know:
http://www.santa-coloma.net/voynich_drebbel/harriot_alphabet.jpg
As for the other type of works you mention, the subject is vast... google, google, google... And of course there are so many books on the subject of these texts. The VMs is evocative of elements from many of them.


I believe the Marci letter is real, and a well meant effort by him to impart to Kircher the information that he knew at the time. The problem is that the "ducats to bearer" anecdote was hearsay. It was also a memory of Marci's, a full 22 years after he could have heard the anecdote... and a full 54 years after Rudolf died! With the turmoil of the coup of 1611, the aftermath of the Battle of White Mountain, and the Thirty Year's War intervening, it would be problematic, in my opinion (and others) to base rely on this letter too much for a true provenance. And yet, this is exactly what is done. Many today still use this evidence as a basis... simply, that the Voynich was sold to Rudolf II for the sum of 600 ducats... and any ensuing theory must begin at that point.

But what we really do know, for various reasons, is only: The Voynich appears to history about 1620 to 1622. One of the most reasonable and insightful investigators of Voynich provenance is Jan Hurych. If you have not read his articles, I recommend it highly:
http://hurontaria.baf.cz/CVM/
Jan's work cuts through much speculation about the letters, the "signature", and more... giving the most focussed view of the provenance I know.

I didn't comment on everything you wrote... this gets long pretty quick. I will say that it is refreshing to see the open minded approach you are using... I see it as the best way to figure anything out. Again, there are many possibles here, and I like many of them, and I am only working on my area because it is my area... that does not mean I don't think many other possibles are very feasible. Proto57

Hello,
You are right it's a different picture re: dragon/armadillo. I do think it does look like an armadillo. What is that object it appears standing on? Obviously this would imply some post-New World exposure.

I have been checking Nick Pelling's Cipher Mysteries and he posted Edith Sherwood claim that some letters look like Da Vinci's handwriting. IF she can also show the artwork matches known exemplars that would be impressive. I find it fascinating that a high school student made this his science project, and it earned the attention of some linguists.

Independent of the script (which I know appears to be unique) does the style of drawing, (not necessarily content) the way the strokes are done, coloring is it known to art historians? I am well aware the drawings content themselves appear to be unknown.

" "ducats to bearer" anecdote was hearsay. It was also a memory of Marci's, a full 22 years after he could have hear"

what you say could be true. Obviously this would strengthen and rule out some theories.
If Rudolph did pay such a huge sum, I wonder what the sales pitch consisted of. Is Rudolph known to have paid comparable sums for other texts? By way of comparison, how much did a hand written Bible cost in Rudloph's time?

I'll write more later but it has occurred to me since we last spoke that there probably aren't very languages that have the same word repeated 3 times throughout the course of a text, and this being seen as normal for the language. IF VM is a transcription of a natural language (and not a cipher) not only should languages that have this feature be studied, but whatever word they use and repeats 3 times should be used as the word when the VM words are also repeated 3 times, to see if it makes "sense". I admit I don't personally know of any such human languages as examples, but if say Chinese (ala Stofli's-Jacque hypothesis) the word "la" is repeated "la la la" and in VM we see "oi oi oi" why not substitute oi with "la"?

I know in original Hebrew they didn't write vowels. So if Hebrew were a lost forgotten language, I'd imagine it'd be pretty tough nut to crack. If VM like Hebrew lacked vowels, that could explain some word repetition.

Your view about microscope would be considerably strengthen if after showing that, the author then shows cell like diatoms and other cells that could be seen by that instrument (blood cells??) in sequence, not scattered randomly throughout the document. The diatoms you show are stuck on a fantasy plant roots, and so the could just be some kind of tuber like a turnip. I forget but do you identify a telescope in VM? Some think the spiral is a spiral galaxy.

"the time being at all unreasonable. Again, exactly for what purpose, I don't know... I only know that
"
One question in my mind is whether an author of the time would need to cipher an herbal or alchemist manual.

"There is much disagreement on the script's date and origins. Italy, Germany and England are some proposals."

I understand that, but the fact it is cursive writings probably rules out an original script that is block or logograms like Chinese, Hebrew?

Some women look 9 months pregnant, curious though the actual process of giving birth does not seem to be represented.
I'm not sure this tilts the evidence between pregnancy v.s rubenesque.

If the plants are chimeras, did the idea though exist independent and either prior to, or contemporaneous of NA?

" see it as the best way to figure anything out. Again, there are many possibles here, and I like many of them, and I am only working on my area because it is my area... that does not mean I don't think many other possibles are very feasible."

Oh I understand!