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funeralxempire
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14 Apr 2019, 1:40 pm

Antrax wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think that's a case of rock bands dabbling in or participating in rock genres that also share that trend with metal. Aren't those all mostly bands that crossover with prog, metal or both? Psychedelic rock/'acid rock' and alternative rock along with all the subgenres that overlap or exist within it break the 'pop song' formula a lot, and quite a bit of metal uses the pop song formula and still is considered metal, but there's certain structural reasons why people reject classifying certain bands as metal because they 'sound like a -core band', or 'sound like a pop band'.


What is the definition of a '-core' band. I'm relatively new to the metal scene (although like the obssessive autistic I am have learned a lot in a short time), and don't quite get all the sub-genre distinctions. I thought '-core' bands were considered part of metal.


Generally speaking '-core' indicates a subgenre is an offshoot of hardcore punk. The earliest uses of 'hardcore punk' meant 'ideologically hardcore, dedicated to the underground diy punk scene, with no interest in mainstream success', but gradually it came to refer to the stripped down, high tempo, minimalist sound associated with a few songs by those bands (Dead Kennedys, Misfits, Black Flag) and a subgenre of punk emerged based around that sound (Minor Threat, State of Alert). Within a few years stuff like that 'matured' into bands like Rites of Spring, Fugazi, Husker Du sounding stuff, which was the basis of 'post-hardcore'; besides that other bands had either revived that early hardcore sound (Gorilla Biscuits, Youth of Today) sometimes known as 'youth crew' or played more thrash metal influenced hardcore (Integrity, Earth Crisis), gradually this 'metallic hardcore' sound became known as metalcore and it includes a wide variety of hybrids between thrash metal, groove metal and death metal and those three main styles of hardcore; as time went on the hybrids were crossed with each other and that gave rise to the huge variety of sounds that generally get lumped together as something-core. The earliest metallic hardcore was just hardcore punk with metallic breakdowns instead of skank breakdowns, but since then basically every combination of elements imaginable has been tried.

Thrashcore is really fast, simple, straight forward hardcore, played in double-time with two guitar players and blashbeats. (Charles Bronson, Spazz, Limp Wrist)
Grindcore is basically thrashcore mixed with crust punk. (Insect Warfare, Benumb)
Deathcore is basically death metal mixed with metalcore, with variations that mirror the different subgenres of death metal (slam and brutal vs. melodic vs. technical).
Crossover thrash is basically thrash metal that's too punk to be thrash metal or thrashcore that's too metallic to be punk; (DRI, Municipal Waste, Suicidal Tendencies)
Metalcore is a catch-all genre for a bunch of sounds that don't always have much in common; Converge and Shai Hulud and Jesuit all count, but don't have much in common in terms of sound


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Doomlord
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14 Apr 2019, 2:00 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Thrashcore is really fast, simple, straight forward hardcore, played in double-time with two guitar players and blashbeats. (Charles Bronson, Spazz, Limp Wrist)
Grindcore is basically thrashcore mixed with crust punk. (Insect Warfare, Benumb)
Deathcore is basically death metal mixed with metalcore, with variations that mirror the different subgenres of death metal (slam and brutal vs. melodic vs. technical).
Crossover thrash is basically thrash metal that's too punk to be thrash metal or thrashcore that's too metallic to be punk; (DRI, Municipal Waste, Suicidal Tendencies)
Metalcore is a catch-all genre for a bunch of sounds that don't always have much in common; Converge and Shai Hulud and Jesuit all count, but don't have much in common in terms of sound


Adding to that, sludge metal is doom metal mixed with hardcore punk. Post metal is an offshoot of that throws post rock into the mix. Sludge metal and traditional metalcore bands often stick to the hardcore vocal style which is pretty much yelling (unlike extreme metal's gutturals, squeals, and shrieks)


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funeralxempire
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14 Apr 2019, 5:51 pm

Doomlord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Thrashcore is really fast, simple, straight forward hardcore, played in double-time with two guitar players and blashbeats. (Charles Bronson, Spazz, Limp Wrist)
Grindcore is basically thrashcore mixed with crust punk. (Insect Warfare, Benumb)
Deathcore is basically death metal mixed with metalcore, with variations that mirror the different subgenres of death metal (slam and brutal vs. melodic vs. technical).
Crossover thrash is basically thrash metal that's too punk to be thrash metal or thrashcore that's too metallic to be punk; (DRI, Municipal Waste, Suicidal Tendencies)
Metalcore is a catch-all genre for a bunch of sounds that don't always have much in common; Converge and Shai Hulud and Jesuit all count, but don't have much in common in terms of sound


Adding to that, sludge metal is doom metal mixed with hardcore punk. Post metal is an offshoot of that throws post rock into the mix. Sludge metal and traditional metalcore bands often stick to the hardcore vocal style which is pretty much yelling (unlike extreme metal's gutturals, squeals, and shrieks)



I'll second this, basically. A lot of that southern sludgy stuff overlaps more with the same region's crust punk; stuff like His Hero Is Gone. I think (from the perspective of the metal scene at that time) that's what's meant when sources at the time describe hardcore as an influence.


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AlanMooresBeard
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02 May 2019, 4:59 am

Amon Amarth
Anthrax
Bathory
Behemoth
Black Sabbath
Carcass
Celtic Frost
Death
Dio
Electric Wizard
Gojira
High On Fire
Immortal
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
King Diamond
Kreator
Mastodon
Megadeth
Meshuggah
Metallica
Morbid Angel
Obituary
Opeth (pre-Heritage)
Overkill
Pantera
Power Trip
Satyricon
Sepultura (pre-Roots)
Slayer
Sleep
Sodom
Suffocation



SecretOpossumCabal
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02 May 2019, 6:47 am

Blind Guardian <-- My undisputed fav, the Band that got me into metal (more specifically power metal as I don't have much interest in the other subgenres)
Elvenking
Virgin Steele
Rhapsody of Fire
Cryonic Temple

Honorable mentions:

Avantasia
Twilight Force
Stratovarious



Antrax
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05 May 2019, 12:26 am

SecretOpossumCabal wrote:
Blind Guardian <-- My undisputed fav, the Band that got me into metal (more specifically power metal as I don't have much interest in the other subgenres)
Elvenking
Virgin Steele
Rhapsody of Fire
Cryonic Temple

Honorable mentions:

Avantasia
Twilight Force
Stratovarious


Blind Guardian is pretty great. And Then There Was Silence is one of the best songs ever made.


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AprilR
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05 May 2019, 8:12 am

Babymetal! *is stoned* I love Nightwish, Blind Guardian and Opeth too though!



Ganondox
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27 May 2019, 11:58 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Here's a tangent all of us probably have a worthwhile opinion about; what defines metal? What criteria do you use to drawn the boundaries between metal vs. punk rock, alternative rock, progressive rock and hard rock or other guitar based music you feel metal overlaps with?

If OP would like, I'll create a new thread rather than hijack this one.


First, it's a fallacy to assume that there is anything that actually defines metal. Metal isn't defined, it's described. It's not specific traits that make something metal, it's belonging to the traditional that takes influence from other metal bands and continues to call itself heavy metal. Second, it's wrong to assume that boundaries actually exist between these stays. They continuously blend with each other, and many bands can be considered metal as well as hard rock or any of the other styles.

That being said, the dominant sound thread connecting metal together is the guitar sound. Traditional rock has a clear separation between rhythm guitar, which functions primarily to harmonize with the vocals, and lead guitar, which plays it's own melody, but isn't used as much, and when it is used it tends to be pretty showy. This trend continues with hard rock, but metal while metal has the textural elements of hard rock, it gets rid of that lead/rhythm distinction. Metal riffs simultaneously fill both a harmonic and melodic role, and is generally regarded as being more important than the vocals. There is many other differences between the two traditions, but I'd consider that to be the most fundamental one.

Everything else came from the same rock tradition that metal deviated from and then deviated in their own ways. It doesn't really make sense to contrast them with metal in the same manner as hard rock as they all developed their own characteristics that are important for that genre that's just orthogonal to what's going on in metal.

Progressive rock may put more emphasis on instrumentation than traditional rock, but it doesn't require any of the distorted guitar elements that defined hard rock and heavy metal. Punk rock is also heavily distorted, but the tone is quite different, and while it also does away with the lead/rhythm guitar distinction that's because they did away with lead guitar entirely and simplified rhythm guitar to playing power chords. Alternative is a derivative of punk rock, but has no cohesive sound whatsoever, the term was originally used to refer to pretty much everything that WASN'T similar to either metal or arena rock. The fact genres that are heavily influenced by metal like grunge are called alternative nowadays just shows how nebulous that term is.

Once you get past that though, there is nothing that keeps a band from being both metal and say alternative, because they are two different traditions that keep adding new innovations, and a band can easily take heavy influence from both traditions.


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