More Thought on Incels.

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I agree. One way or another a woman will find out if someone is a virgin. It's borderline impossible for a virgin to hide their anxiety on the first ever sexual encounter.

Idk what if the woman is also a virgin or still inexperienced, I feel they'd have to kinda have a bit of experience to just know that without it being admitted somehow. But even so if not being a virgin was a prerequisite for any male to have sex, then none of them would ever become not virgins.

So regardless of if a women could tell though your idea of being able to notice in bed, which is a lot more realistic than the earlier comment about women being able to smell a virgin man from a mile away which just came off as complete nonsense. Does that matter to every woman, it must not or no men would ever go from being virgin to non-virgin and seems plenty of them do, so how does that work if women presumably won't have sex with virgin guys?

Eventually

I think the virgin thing is a red herring. Girls have bigger fish to fry (metaphorically speaking),

Many of them don't mind, especially in their youngers years as everyone has to start somewhere but I think the older a virgin gets the more their anxiety will bubble through. As someone becomes an older and older virgin I think it becomes off-putting to women as older virgins tend to be stuck in a arrested development of sexual maturity and overthink everything. I noticed they often need to exceptionally know and trust someone and really psych themselves up for it which turns the experience into a bit of a convoluted mess. This applies to men and women.

The reality is that they don't need to know and trust a particular partner well, or even know them at all and no pre-planning is needed many times. Sex should just be fun and not an operation planned with military precision. The less planned the better if someone has a tendency to dwell and overthink and to be honest, I think that once a certain age is reached one should just get their virginity over with.

The amount of older virgins I see tying themselves in knots year after year on the subject is impressive. Dwelling on the ideal time to lose it, to whom, what they plan on doing on the day, their worries about losing their "innocence" or a "piece of themselves" (whatever that means) unless its with the perfect partner and their weirdly over committed stance on STD prevention to the point where they think they might die from virus ultra just by brushing their skin against someone doesn't seem like a productive use of time or worth the stress.

I can get myself spinning in circles in an anxious mess just listening to some of them.

Thanks for pointing this out. I certainly can't "detect a male virgin from a mile away" and I doubt that very many other women can either.


Sounds like a possibility.

I need to be careful responding to you. A moderator has warned me that I've hurt your feelings, or he thinks I'm hurting your feelings, when I reply to you. But I shall reply regardless.

I'm NOT surprised how little NTs know (or care) about autism. The comparison wasn't specifically about Aspies dating. You missed the point. I'm saying the comprehension of Autism among NTs, just like the comprehension of male ugliness in the eyes of women, seems to follow a comparable pattern. Just like most NTs don't fathom the Autism spectrum, most men don't actually understand the line between passable and ugly looks in the eyes of women.

Rainman is an EXTREME case of Autism. Elephant Man is an EXTREME case of ugly. Both are irrefutable.

Just as an NT can say with confidence that Rainman is Autistic, most of us can say with confidence that Elephant Man was ugly. But those are obvious extremes.

However, NTs struggle with comprehending higher-functioning autism, and think higher-functioning autists are just crazy/lying/looking for an excuse to be a jerk/deliberately being as*holes/can easily overcome their problems...NTs, like you say, are oblivious to the autism spectrum. Doesn't make these higher-functioning autists any less autistic.

AS A PARALLEL example - Some men really are statistically too ugly to pass the looks test of most women. All the self-improvement in the world won't "make them more attractive." They don't have to be circus freaks, but they're still on women's ugly spectrum. Other men can't see it. "You don't look like Elephant Man, therefore, you're average in my eyes." Even though ugliness is a spectrum

No different than an NT saying to anyone on this site, "You don't act like Rainman, so you can't possibly be autistic. You're a normal person, so stop making excuses and improve yourself and you'll be like all the rest of us."

Do you understand what I'm saying regarding the || comparison? Two competely different issues but similar manifestations. I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy of my fellow Aspies in demonizing ugly men. They talk about ugly men NO BETTER than most NTs talk about higher-functioning autists.

"You don't act like Rainman, so YOU CANNOT BE AUTISTIC"

we know this isn't so, but many men here then commit the same fallacy when talking about the statistically ugly:

"You don't look like Elephant Man, so YOU CANNOT BE UGLY. I, as a man, think you look average, so MOST WOMEN do, too, duh...."

And the funny thing is, I actually agree with your posts regarding the importance of passable looks as a factor of attraction. Not the only factor. And don't have to be the best looking. But clearly need to be passable to get a foot in the door. Ironically, I agree with you, but you feel some need to call me out on it. Is what I'm saying making more sense?

And can we talk to one another without fear of me getting banned, or should this be our last exchange?

You don't have to be Rain Man to be on the autistic spectrum, regardless of what any NT says.

You don't have to be Elephant Man to be too ugly for women, regardless of what any other man says.

ToM. Empathy.

But in your case, with your personal background and experience, I do understand why the concept frightens you so much. You don't want it to be real. Too much fragile ego rides on it not being true in your world. It's okay.

Yes, well, L&D isn't the only place where I hear that recurring drumbeat, though it does come to mind.

If we're gonna be technical, it's also not always "I have a bad attitude and I'm a jerk" - sometimes it's "I have wildly unreasonable expectations, and don't realize it, so I feel angry when they're not met, but don't know that I should be blaming myself, and not everyone else" - sometimes it's bad attitude AND unrealistic expectations.

And I agree, I was being a tad sweeping, but I also tend to assume that people with actual disabilities or real disfigurements (as you put it) also have a deeper perspective on life than simply "how do I get sum fux?". Certainly all kinds of people exist, and all manner of exceptions are possible, but from what I've seen, even someone with a severe disability or disfigurement has a better chance at finding love than someone who has an unbearably foul personality.

Besides, anything that involves other people requires the cooperation and consent of other people. And people are allowed to say "no". My issue with the idea of being "denied" sex is that it implies that the individual rightly earned or deserved the sex. Like they played enough games at the Nice Guy Arcade, and got a ton of Nice Guy Tickets, and now they want to trade them in for some glow-in-the-dark shoelaces, a koosh ball, and some intercourse. The idea that sex is something you literally EARN by going through the motions of being "nice", and simply for exerting the effort, they deserve payment or compensation.

Furthermore, it's not like the ONLY way to experience sexual pleasure is with another person. A person can do whatever you want to themselves, and they can give themselves consent to do so. Learn how to take care of their own problems. If their bits and bobs work, they should work just as well for them as they would for anyone else. And yes yes, some people can't do that due to disability or handicap, but that's not typically OTHER people's fault, and if you're that disabled, I'd wager you have bigger concerns in life.

And in the instances of people we're mainly referring to here, if they're able enough to go out and meet women to then strike out with, and have anticipations of having the sex, it is probably highly unlikely that individual is sufficiently disabled that they can't diddle their own doodle.

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Oh, and as for "virgin detectors", women are not born with inherent arcane knowledge of what sex should be like any more than men are. Also, women can be virgins, too, last I checked. It is entirely possible to be equally nervous the 5th or 27th time you have sex as it is the first. It is not uncommon to be nervous the first time you have sex with someone NEW, regardless of how many times you've had sex in total. Some people are nervous EVERY time they have sex. The idea that women "will just know", or that ANYONE "can just tell" is rubbish mixed with confirmation bias.

From what I can tell, most women don't really care. Fretting about virginity seems to mostly occur among insecure men. I would bet money that many to most women are probably more concerned with whether your fingernails are clean or what you smell like, than whether or not you're a virgin.

The interesting thing about "ugly men" is that "ugly women" also exist. And for some strange reason, even the loneliest man who is "sick of being judged by his looks", will be approached by a woman that THEY find unattractive, and go "ew, no", and justify it somehow. And utterly fail to see the irony. Women DID find them attractive. Just not the women they WANTED.

Many women do care a great deal about personality. Problem is, if you have a terrible personality, the fact that they value personality works against you, not for you.

Pretty much. Once that escort took my virginity---well, after I saw 3 or 4 escorts---I found that approaching women became much, much easier. Even attractive women. Granted, few of them actually dated me. But casual interactions became a lot more comfortable. Suddenly, women no longer harbored evolutionary-level hatred for me, since my virgin smell was completely gone. That's doesn't mean they slept with me the day they met me---after all, I was never a Chad. But they seemed to actually respect me as a person, and they were more comfortable with flirty touch, like cuddly picture poses and close dancing. While in my virgin days, the hugs women gave me were pathetically standoffish and even carried an "ew! I gotta burn my clothes now" vibe.

On several occasions, I'd have sex with an escort, and later go to a club or attend a social gathering. Wow! People often treated me like I was a god! Men hung on to every word I said, and women playfully flirted with me at random.

Funny that you mentioned this. When I had sex with the escort who took my virginity, I lied to her and told her I had sex 6 months prior. (She asked me about it when she saw me acting more skittish than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.) Because I feared she'd deny me sex, out of disgust with me as a virgin, and still take my money. And since escort services are technically about "companionship", I'd have no recourse. Well, she still had sex with me. I came clean to her afterwards; she gave me a pep talk that she knew all along, and she's happy to be my first.

Wrong! The first girl I dated---I call her "my girlfriend" retroactively, because that's what I thought of her as---was an unattractive as me. And only did I not care about her looks, I was partially glad she was unattractive, because I figured she'd be more loyal and a better person. The latter didn't pan out: she was nice, but still boring to be with. She didn't like any places I suggested for our dates, like museums, artsy neighborhoods, or quirky restaurants. All she wanted to do was hang out on campus and talk, or at the maximum, go our city's river promenade. The only reason I kept seeing her is I didn't think any other girl would like me.

Seems to me the issue here isn't "virgin smell" (there's no such thing) but that you now had one less reason to feel awkward and intimidated, so you therefore felt more comfortable approaching women. Your greater comfort, in turn, made the women feel more comfortable with you.



This sounds to me like having sex enabled you to be physically more relaxed, as well as building your confidence by giving you sexual experience. The purely physical aspect of this -- though not the confidence aspect -- could have been accomplished just as well by jerking off, it seems to me.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 18 Sep 2021, 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I don't think anyone has a "virgin" smell but a lot of women like confidence and know when someone is lacking it.

It's not so much how you perform in bed (assuming it's taking place in bed) but rather how you get in it. Hesitating and overcomplicating it screams "this is my first time". At the end of the day it's a round peg going into a round hole. Everything supposed to "slot" in place easily and there is nothing to think about.

A guy could be terrible in bed but if said man ended up in bed after a woman he doesn't even know said "want a bone?" completely out of the blue and he immediately said "Yes" with no second thoughts then that is clearly someone with a degree of confidence and knows exactly what to expect in bed.

A virgin would struggle to say yes in such a situation and their head will be going in circles. Obviously a woman would pick up on it.

This is just an absurd hypothetical but it probably still happens every day in real life.

Why would a virgin struggle to say yes to that? I thought guys would want to loose their virginity at the first opportunity.

That was nowhere near true for me. I didn't see my virginity as "innocence" or a "piece of myself", and when I called it that, I was being facetious. In fact, I was the opposite: I saw my virginity as a giant monkey on my back, and was willing to offload it onto the first willing taker. Who turned out to be an escort---you can't get any less "special" than that. I didn't worry about the STDs, since escorts are very judicious about it. I did worry about becoming infatuated with her, but that didn't happen. I was 22 at the time; that's "older" for a virgin, but not old.

Last edited by Aspie1 on 18 Sep 2021, 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paying 300 for a half hour with a woman and ten seconds of pleasure doesn't make you a god. All this crap about a virgin smell and etc is all in your mind.

I have a real relationship with a woman who I love with all I have. I'm sure you can't fathom what that's like in your sick little incel mind. I'm not Clark Gabel level handsome. I attracted her because I was nice to her.

Last edited by Axeman on 18 Sep 2021, 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And you totally ignored my comments about a real relationship. If fkking whores fixed your issues how come you don't have one?

Last edited by Cornflake on 19 Sep 2021, 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.: Personal attack removed