How Do I Not Feel Undesirable?

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The Grand Inquisitor
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05 Sep 2022, 1:24 am

Muse933277 wrote:
Maybe hit the strip clubs or brothels if you're really desperate to lose your virginity. You live in Australia so escorts are legal there. You could get an escort and be 100% upfront about your lack of experience but you are willing to learn. Maybe get some sexual experience so when you actually do date a non-working girl, you wont be completely clueless and have no idea what's going on.

If I lived in a place where prostitution were legal, I probably would have seriously considered going to a brothel at 23, 24.

What I care about is being genuinely accepted at a romantic or sexual level. Escorts can't offer me that.



kraftiekortie
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05 Sep 2022, 1:29 am

Of course not!

Like I said, you’re more desirable than some, less desirable than others.

Much of your situation is luck.

I can’t help advising you to consider other aspects of your life when assessing tour “desirability.”



The Grand Inquisitor
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05 Sep 2022, 1:46 am

Mikurotoro92 wrote:
You HAVE to love yourself before you can love someone else!

I'm sure you mean well, but this tiresome platitude is riddled with more holes than a golf course. I would encourage you to pause and take a moment to think critically about it.

I think most human beings, whether they love themselves or not, would take issue with harbouring an everpresent desire to engage in romantic or sexual activities with members of their desired sex, and never getting to realise that desire. Just because someone is discontented with their desolate love life, doesn't mean that they don't love themselves. Just because somebody feels undesirable doesn't mean that they don't feel like they have desirable qualities. Anybody would feel undesirable if nobody ever shows any kind of romantic or sexual interest in them, no matter what good qualities they may possess.

As for whether a person can love if they don't love themselves, I think we see plenty of examples of this. There are absolutely people who don't love themselves, and yet are still able to get into relationships in spite of their lack of self-love.

A suicidal person who decides not to go through with it on account of not wanting to devastate their parents Is exhibiting love for their parents where they apparently don't have love for themselves.

Perhaps it's more challenging to be present and attentive to a loved one's needs when one is struggling with feelings of depression and self-hatred, but I don't buy the idea that people who don't love themselves can't love other people.

Even if that was true though, I never said I don't love myself. Is it reasonable to make that assumption about me based on my lamenting about my lacking love life and apparent lack of desirability?



klanka
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05 Sep 2022, 7:30 am

The love yourself before you can love others is also vague, so you don't know when you sufficiently love yourself :lol:

Did you try your plan of going out and drinking more?



Benjamin the Donkey
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05 Sep 2022, 7:41 am

What are your strengths? Place yourself among people who appreciate them. Or develop new strengths. This can both boost your self-confidence and make you objectively more attractive to others.


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05 Sep 2022, 9:40 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Self-improvement is important for life progression in general, but when you cite it as the solution to my inability to get dates and romantic prospects, you're implying a couple of things. You're implying that I'm not good enough to attract a partner as I am, and you're implying that my ongoing efforts towards self-improvement are insufficient, but you also can't tell me what degree of self-actualisation I must reach before I can finally be deemed a worthy dating prospect.

There's always room for improvement, so no matter how much self-improvement I achieve in my quest for self-actualisation, so long as my love life is failing, people can always tell me that I'm not good enough to attract a partner, and that I need to improve more in order to become good enough.

Self-improvement can only increase one's chances of attracting a partner, but the extent to which it can do so varies depending on what the individual is working on improving, and why the individual is facing difficulty attracting a partner in the first place. The more constructive approach is to examine why an individual is having the dating issues they are, and figure out what specifically needs attention in order to achieve better outcomes.
I agree with you. When it comes to self-improvement I think it's important to try & set realistic goals & take things in small steps. Also instead of majorly focusing on self-improvement so you can obtain a romantic partner, it may help to try a different approach so you can meet a partner who would accept you as you without having to fundamentally change yourself. Think of the type of partner you'd be more compatible with & possibly have a better chance with & then think of ways to meet someone like that & how you can make a better impression to them. I thought of it like a business strategy. I was the product, my romantic partner was the buyer, & I had to figure out where & how to market myself to her.


The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
I'm sure you mean well, but this tiresome platitude is riddled with more holes than a golf course. I would encourage you to pause and take a moment to think critically about it.

I think most human beings, whether they love themselves or not, would take issue with harbouring an everpresent desire to engage in romantic or sexual activities with members of their desired sex, and never getting to realise that desire. Just because someone is discontented with their desolate love life, doesn't mean that they don't love themselves. Just because somebody feels undesirable doesn't mean that they don't feel like they have desirable qualities. Anybody would feel undesirable if nobody ever shows any kind of romantic or sexual interest in them, no matter what good qualities they may possess.

As for whether a person can love if they don't love themselves, I think we see plenty of examples of this. There are absolutely people who don't love themselves, and yet are still able to get into relationships in spite of their lack of self-love.

A suicidal person who decides not to go through with it on account of not wanting to devastate their parents Is exhibiting love for their parents where they apparently don't have love for themselves.

Perhaps it's more challenging to be present and attentive to a loved one's needs when one is struggling with feelings of depression and self-hatred, but I don't buy the idea that people who don't love themselves can't love other people.

Even if that was true though, I never said I don't love myself. Is it reasonable to make that assumption about me based on my lamenting about my lacking love life and apparent lack of desirability?
People often assumed I had horrible self-esteem cuz I posted about my problems a lot but I don't usually feel that bad about myself. I'm VERY aware that I have alot more problems than most others & lots of others would judge me negatively for it but it does NOT mean that I judge myself negatively even if they may want me to.

My current girlfriend hates herself but she is usually a very caring & loving person, at least with her family & me anyway. She grew up with some extremest religious beliefs pushed on her that included her being a horrible sinner whenever she did not put others 1st & also thoughts having power where if she ever had a negative thought about someone & then something bad would happen to em it would be all her fault for having that thought. She was also ignored by her family alot because other people had different various issues than her that caused em to get a lot more focus. One family member often accused others of not loving him whenever he could not get his way & others would usually give in including my gf. Cass's family did not have enough time nor energy to make her a higher priority. She currently has a codependent relationship with a couple family members who guilt-trip her to get their way & she does not know how to set boundaries. She feels she's a horrible person whenever she doesn't give in. They have major health issues & she's worried about them. I think it could be potentially helpful for her to get counseling for codependency but she's too stressed out to feel she has the time & energy for it. Plus it's difficult to find counselors who accept her insurance & fnding one with codependency training/experience might be too picky.


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05 Sep 2022, 12:48 pm

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Thoughts dictate feelings/emotions, and in turn feelings/emotions dictate actions.

Even if you don't speak your negative thoughts out loud, your facial expressions, body language, and "vibe," communicate them. If you think over and over and over again about how you feel undesirable, then that's what your physical body/presence is putting out into the world around you.

I don't disagree with this.

goldfish21 wrote:
Self improvement is key to becoming attractive. Mentally, physically, emotionally etc - work on mastering yourself, controlling your thoughts and emotions, becoming a better you in every way and eventually others begin to take notice in a good way.

Self-improvement is important for life progression in general, but when you cite it as the solution to my inability to get dates and romantic prospects, you're implying a couple of things. You're implying that I'm not good enough to attract a partner as I am, and you're implying that my ongoing efforts towards self-improvement are insufficient, but you also can't tell me what degree of self-actualisation I must reach before I can finally be deemed a worthy dating prospect.

There's always room for improvement, so no matter how much self-improvement I achieve in my quest for self-actualisation, so long as my love life is failing, people can always tell me that I'm not good enough to attract a partner, and that I need to improve more in order to become good enough.

Self-improvement can only increase one's chances of attracting a partner, but the extent to which it can do so varies depending on what the individual is working on improving, and why the individual is facing difficulty attracting a partner in the first place. The more constructive approach is to examine why an individual is having the dating issues they are, and figure out what specifically needs attention in order to achieve better outcomes.


I don't think there's a quantifiable amount of self improvement one "ought to do," in order to qualify as attractive to others.. it's not quite measurable like that.

But I do think there's a way to tell if your hard work is about to pay off - I think it comes down to mindset. Might sound suuuuuuper cliche, but I'm gonna have to quote Henry Ford here with "Whether you think you can, or you can't, you're right!"

So, when you've done enough self work of all kinds (mental, physical, mood/mindset, style/fashion, skills/competencies etc.) that you begin to truly Think (and believe your thoughts) that you can attract someone, that's when you'll begin to make the shift into actually beginning to attract people - because that's the vibe you'll be putting out.

Not feeling it yet? Carry on doing the good self work. There'll be ups and downs in progress, motivation, and results.. but such is life and the process to achieving virtually any objective. Perseverance pays off.


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Mikurotoro92
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17 Nov 2022, 10:33 pm

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Mikurotoro92 wrote:
You HAVE to love yourself before you can love someone else!

I'm sure you mean well, but this tiresome platitude is riddled with more holes than a golf course. I would encourage you to pause and take a moment to think critically about it.

I think most human beings, whether they love themselves or not, would take issue with harbouring an everpresent desire to engage in romantic or sexual activities with members of their desired sex, and never getting to realise that desire. Just because someone is discontented with their desolate love life, doesn't mean that they don't love themselves. Just because somebody feels undesirable doesn't mean that they don't feel like they have desirable qualities. Anybody would feel undesirable if nobody ever shows any kind of romantic or sexual interest in them, no matter what good qualities they may possess.

As for whether a person can love if they don't love themselves, I think we see plenty of examples of this. There are absolutely people who don't love themselves, and yet are still able to get into relationships in spite of their lack of self-love.

A suicidal person who decides not to go through with it on account of not wanting to devastate their parents Is exhibiting love for their parents where they apparently don't have love for themselves.

Perhaps it's more challenging to be present and attentive to a loved one's needs when one is struggling with feelings of depression and self-hatred, but I don't buy the idea that people who don't love themselves can't love other people.

Even if that was true though, I never said I don't love myself. Is it reasonable to make that assumption about me based on my lamenting about my lacking love life and apparent lack of desirability?


Um...IDK why I said that?

I think I have been brainwashed by my friends Glenn and Anita who told me self-love and self-care is what I need to do in order to manifest a soulmate



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19 Nov 2022, 4:05 pm

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Muse933277 wrote:
Maybe hit the strip clubs or brothels if you're really desperate to lose your virginity. You live in Australia so escorts are legal there. You could get an escort and be 100% upfront about your lack of experience but you are willing to learn. Maybe get some sexual experience so when you actually do date a non-working girl, you wont be completely clueless and have no idea what's going on.

If I lived in a place where prostitution were legal, I probably would have seriously considered going to a brothel at 23, 24.

What I care about is being genuinely accepted at a romantic or sexual level. Escorts can't offer me that.

Perhaps it might still be a good idea to see a sex worker, NOT as a means of "being genuinely accepted at a romantic or sexual level," but merely as a way to, as Muse933277 put it, "get some sexual experience so when you actually do date a non-working girl, you wont be completely clueless and have no idea what's going on."

Having one less thing to worry about "when you actually do date a non-working girl" can't hurt. Hopefully there are some sex workers there who specialize in educating virgins and near-virgins.


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Muse933277
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20 Nov 2022, 9:27 pm

The question is, the things that make you romantically undesirable, are they fixable?

Because certain traits that make someone romantically disadvantaged, are easier to fix compared to others. A man that has trouble getting dates because of being overweight, can fix his weight issues, thus also fix some of his dating issues as well. On the other hand, a 5 ft 2 autist can essentially do nothing to change his dating woes because the things that make him romantically undesirable (his height and autism) are unfixable.



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22 Nov 2022, 11:46 am

cyberdad wrote:
And yes, drunk girls are fun,

Not if they end up feeling, when sobered up, that they were taken advantage of.

In some cases this may even result in accusations of date rape or something similar. Check the relevant laws in your jurisdiction.


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22 Nov 2022, 12:01 pm

nick007 wrote:
I would advise against going to clubs to practice social skills. There's a member on this forum who regularly goes to bars & clubs & regularly gets into trouble there. He might have much better luck if he tried a different method to meet people & make friends. Talking to drunk people while you are drunk does not teach helpful social skills for situations where nobody has been drinking. It teaches you how to make a giant arse of yoruself.

Agreed.


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23 Nov 2022, 8:05 am

You don’t get “sexual experience,” usually, by seeing a sex worker. Sex workers usually don’t feel it worth their while to “teach” those with relatively little experience.

Also: how regulated is the sex industry in your country? If sex workers aren’t forced to have health checks, I wouldn’t go to them



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24 Nov 2022, 2:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
You don’t get “sexual experience,” usually, by seeing a sex worker. Sex workers usually don’t feel it worth their while to “teach” those with relatively little experience.

Probably true of most, but perhaps some might specialize in teaching newbies.

I'm not sure whether that particular specialty exists or how common it is, but I do know that there are other kinds of highly specialized sex workers. (Decades ago, I was friends with some.)

kraftiekortie wrote:
Also: how regulated is the sex industry in your country? If sex workers aren’t forced to have health checks, I wouldn’t go to them

Better to avoid any sex worker who doesn't insist on safe sex, e.g. condoms. That's probably better protection than laws mandating regular health checks.


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29 Nov 2022, 7:45 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
You don’t get “sexual experience,” usually, by seeing a sex worker. Sex workers usually don’t feel it worth their while to “teach” those with relatively little experience.

Probably true of most, but perhaps some might specialize in teaching newbies.

I'm not sure whether that particular specialty exists or how common it is, but I do know that there are other kinds of highly specialized sex workers. (Decades ago, I was friends with some.)

kraftiekortie wrote:
Also: how regulated is the sex industry in your country? If sex workers aren’t forced to have health checks, I wouldn’t go to them

Better to avoid any sex worker who doesn't insist on safe sex, e.g. condoms. That's probably better protection than laws mandating regular health checks.


Sex workers who specialise at dealing with virgins do exist. I think I heard a program on TV about them a few years ago but I think they charge a premium.

Nobody is going to learn much the first few times anyway regardless of who it's with.

I think variety of experiences trumps number of experiences. I think someone who can handle staring in a BDSM porno with other people should be fine confidence wise even if they only have sex infrequently for example.



kraftiekortie
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29 Nov 2022, 8:14 am

In my experience, most women really don't care all that much about how "experienced" a guy is. Many women aren't too "experienced," either.

I have been with "experienced" women who did not produce the requisite "desire"----and I've been with "inexperienced" women who sort of drove me wild.