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why some men seem more successful with women

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The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Feb 2013, 3:53 am

rabbittss wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
^^^if you're okay with being alone, if you can accept that your odds of finding someone are going to be dramatically lessened, then that's perfectly fine.

Most people would not be content with that. Good for you, if you are. It certainly seems like it would make life simpler.


oh no, don't get me wrong, every part of my biology screams at me not to be alone.. I actually LOVE being with another person.. I've never slept as good as when I was co-sleeping with another human being.. just the comfort level is amazing...

But at the same time.. I HATE failing, and will do almost anything to avoid failure. I will drop a class and get a W if I don't have an A going into the midterm.. I will quit a job rather than be fired.. I simply don't play video games because I'm so afraid of Mario falling down the hole.


Your numbers in the survey thread show that you have a better record than many men of your age here - I don't understand why you have a low esteem when it comes to finding a partner.



rabbittss
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22 Feb 2013, 3:56 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
^^^if you're okay with being alone, if you can accept that your odds of finding someone are going to be dramatically lessened, then that's perfectly fine.

Most people would not be content with that. Good for you, if you are. It certainly seems like it would make life simpler.


oh no, don't get me wrong, every part of my biology screams at me not to be alone.. I actually LOVE being with another person.. I've never slept as good as when I was co-sleeping with another human being.. just the comfort level is amazing...

But at the same time.. I HATE failing, and will do almost anything to avoid failure. I will drop a class and get a W if I don't have an A going into the midterm.. I will quit a job rather than be fired.. I simply don't play video games because I'm so afraid of Mario falling down the hole.


Your numbers in the survey thread show that you have a better record than many men here - I don't understand why you have a low esteem when it comes to finding a partner.


That's true, but both of those have basically been happenstance.. 2 in 14 years.. and neither lasted more than 6 months.. very forthright females who decided they wanted me and got what they wanted.. they've wandered into my life and latched on so to speak.. when it comes to relationships which *I* initiated I've struck out every single time.



The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Feb 2013, 4:04 am

rabbittss wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
^^^if you're okay with being alone, if you can accept that your odds of finding someone are going to be dramatically lessened, then that's perfectly fine.

Most people would not be content with that. Good for you, if you are. It certainly seems like it would make life simpler.


oh no, don't get me wrong, every part of my biology screams at me not to be alone.. I actually LOVE being with another person.. I've never slept as good as when I was co-sleeping with another human being.. just the comfort level is amazing...

But at the same time.. I HATE failing, and will do almost anything to avoid failure. I will drop a class and get a W if I don't have an A going into the midterm.. I will quit a job rather than be fired.. I simply don't play video games because I'm so afraid of Mario falling down the hole.


Your numbers in the survey thread show that you have a better record than many men here - I don't understand why you have a low esteem when it comes to finding a partner.


That's true, but both of those have basically been happenstance.. 2 in 14 years.. and neither lasted more than 6 months.. very forthright females who decided they wanted me and got what they wanted.. they've wandered into my life and latched on so to speak.. when it comes to relationships which *I* initiated I've struck out every single time.


That's part of life...



rabbittss
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22 Feb 2013, 4:10 am

Right.

But I'd still rather win none than lose some.. since every time I gamble I lose everything.

See as a perfect example I don't play the Lottery at all because I know exactly what the odds are of me hitting the jackpot.. I'd rather have my dollar than a worthless piece of paper, basically what I've done so far is been given some scratch offs for a gift and won a few bucks on some one else's dime...



Last edited by rabbittss on 22 Feb 2013, 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

mds_02
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22 Feb 2013, 4:14 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Your numbers in the survey thread show that you have a better record than many men of your age here - I don't understand why you have a low esteem when it comes to finding a partner.


Being able to find one and being able to keep one are not the same.

The pain of losing someone you've become emotionally invested in can be much worse than the pain of not having anyone in the first place.

I'd agree that a person who can find partners but not keep them is somewhat better off than someone who can't find anyone to begin with. But only because it is a necessary step toward the goal which is, for most people, a lifelong (or, at least, long term) partnership.

But actually being in that position sucks. Hard.

There's more to success with women than just sheer numbers. Assuming two guys have the same goal, finding a wife (which is what most seem to want to end up with), who is more successful; the one who dates hundreds of women over the course of his life but can't keep any of them interested for more than a few weeks? Or the one who finds the woman he wants to marry at a young age and gets to spend his entire life with her?

When I talked about men being successful with women, I was referring to men being successful at finding those women who might be interested. But there are other, more important, levels of success. And, ultimately, success is defined as much by one's goals as by one's actions.

Which is why I included the word "seem" in the thread title.



The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Feb 2013, 4:19 am

mds_02 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Your numbers in the survey thread show that you have a better record than many men of your age here - I don't understand why you have a low esteem when it comes to finding a partner.


Being able to find one and being able to keep one are not the same.

The pain of losing someone you've become emotionally invested in can be much worse than the pain of not having anyone in the first place.

I'd agree that a person who can find partners but not keep them is somewhat better off than someone who can't find anyone to begin with. But only because it is a necessary step toward the goal which is, for most people, a lifelong (or, at least, long term) partnership.

But actually being in that position sucks. Hard.

There's more to success with women than just sheer numbers. Assuming two guys have the same goal, finding a wife (which is what most seem to want to end up with), who is more successful; the one who dates hundreds of women over the course of his life but can't keep any of them interested for more than a few weeks? Or the one who finds the woman he wants to marry at a young age and gets to spend his entire life with her?

When I talked about men being successful with women, I was referring to men being successful at finding those women who might be interested. But there are other, more important, levels of success. And, ultimately, success is defined as much by one's goals as by one's actions.


True, but being able to get a lot of dates increase your chances of achieving your goal, whatever it is.



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22 Feb 2013, 4:21 am

I'm sure it does, just like buying 100,000 lotto tickets increases your chance of winning. But it's expensive and wasteful and time consuming.



hyperlexian
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22 Feb 2013, 4:27 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
That's right, but guys don't have the luxury to give up and wait for someone to approach them, if they do so, chances are very high that they'll die with zero relationship.


This is true. Women have their own issues when it comes to dating, but having to make the first move is generally not one of them.

Both of the traditional roles have their advantages and disadvantages. A woman has the advantage of not having to put herself out there in the same way that men do, which is balanced by only being able to choose from those men who approach her.

A man risks rejection with every interaction (and, unless he can develop a thick skin, that rejection can be absolutely crushing), but has the advantage of being able to try again and again with whatever women he pleases. The idea is that he should minimize his disadvantage by learning how to not take rejection personally (unfortunately, the only way to do that is to experience it enough), and maximize his advantage by being willing to just keep trying.

Of course, I'm speaking in generalities here. There are some from both genders whose experiences will not match this. But I think it's likely true for most.

I've heard many, mostly women, advise people to basically stop looking and let love find them. This, while well meaning, is bad advice for most men I think. I'd recommend a much more proactive approach. Most relationships do not form organically. Most of the time, they form because one or both partners purposefully create favorable circumstances and situations.

Those women who are willing to actively pursue the men they desire are awesome. But they are definitely a small minority, and I don't think it's a good idea to just wait for one to come along.


It's the worst advice to be given to any man; unless the man is some drop-dead gorgeous celeb.

That what I said in the other thread and I was condemned and accused of being a sexist jerk ...ha!
no, you were not accused of that. other people can go and see the exchange for themselves. what you are stating did not happen.

bucephalus had decided to stop looking for a relationship when he met me, and he was not actively seeking out love in any way. you can see a past thread where he said he was focusing on other areas of his life instead. he did not even know i was available. yet... here we are.

just because the advice doesn't work for every man doesn't mean it doesn't work for any man. situations differ and personalities differ. some men are the lucky types that are pursued by women, and many other ones know how to capitalise on a mutual situation (Schneekugel described that in another thread).

one of the ideas behind the advice to stop looking is that desperation is not sexy. so if the desperation is scaring women away anyway, there is no point in continuing until better all-over life balance is achieved.

men who have never seemed desperate themselves may advise other men to never give up or never take a break, because they've not experienced a dry spell long enough to start appearing desperate to women. so they don't know how it looks or feels. so i think 'stop looking' often means 'take a break, distract yourself, calm down, work on other areas, then re-engage'


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22 Feb 2013, 4:31 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
True, but being able to get a lot of dates increase your chances of achieving your goal, whatever it is.


I agree that the guy who can get dates is closer to the goal than the guy who cannot. I'm just saying he's not necessarily going to be happier.

In the long run, the guy who can attract women will be better off than the guy who cannot. But, in the short term, if he can't keep them he'll be on an emotional rollercoaster that can leave him an absolute wreck.



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22 Feb 2013, 4:38 am

hyperlexian wrote:
i think 'stop looking' often means 'take a break, distract yourself, calm down, work on other areas, then re-engage


As long as the guy in question understands that last bit, then yes, this can be good advice.

Desperation will definitely hurt a guy's chances.

Quote:
men who have never seemed desperate themselves may advise other men to never give up or never take a break, because they've not experienced a dry spell long enough to start appearing desperate to women. so they don't know how it looks or feels. so i think 'stop looking' often means 'take a break, distract yourself, calm down, work on other areas, then re-engage'


My advice, to not take rejection personally and to just keep trying, emphasizes the fact that there will always be more opportunities which would, I'd hope, help a guy to feel and seem less desperate.

And, either way, it's directed more at those guys who let their fear of rejection stop them from trying, rather than those who let their fear of being alone drive them to desperation. From what I've seen in my life, the former are more common than the latter. But both groups tend to get the same advice which, for one, is simply not helpful.



Last edited by mds_02 on 22 Feb 2013, 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Feb 2013, 5:50 am

hyperlexian wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
That's right, but guys don't have the luxury to give up and wait for someone to approach them, if they do so, chances are very high that they'll die with zero relationship.


This is true. Women have their own issues when it comes to dating, but having to make the first move is generally not one of them.

Both of the traditional roles have their advantages and disadvantages. A woman has the advantage of not having to put herself out there in the same way that men do, which is balanced by only being able to choose from those men who approach her.

A man risks rejection with every interaction (and, unless he can develop a thick skin, that rejection can be absolutely crushing), but has the advantage of being able to try again and again with whatever women he pleases. The idea is that he should minimize his disadvantage by learning how to not take rejection personally (unfortunately, the only way to do that is to experience it enough), and maximize his advantage by being willing to just keep trying.

Of course, I'm speaking in generalities here. There are some from both genders whose experiences will not match this. But I think it's likely true for most.

I've heard many, mostly women, advise people to basically stop looking and let love find them. This, while well meaning, is bad advice for most men I think. I'd recommend a much more proactive approach. Most relationships do not form organically. Most of the time, they form because one or both partners purposefully create favorable circumstances and situations.

Those women who are willing to actively pursue the men they desire are awesome. But they are definitely a small minority, and I don't think it's a good idea to just wait for one to come along.


It's the worst advice to be given to any man; unless the man is some drop-dead gorgeous celeb.

That what I said in the other thread and I was condemned and accused of being a sexist jerk ...ha!
no, you were not accused of that. other people can go and see the exchange for themselves. what you are stating did not happen.

bucephalus had decided to stop looking for a relationship when he met me, and he was not actively seeking out love in any way. you can see a past thread where he said he was focusing on other areas of his life instead. he did not even know i was available. yet... here we are.

just because the advice doesn't work for every man doesn't mean it doesn't work for any man. situations differ and personalities differ. some men are the lucky types that are pursued by women, and many other ones know how to capitalise on a mutual situation (Schneekugel described that in another thread).

one of the ideas behind the advice to stop looking is that desperation is not sexy. so if the desperation is scaring women away anyway, there is no point in continuing until better all-over life balance is achieved.



Yes, it happened, in fact you were the one who did, you were the one who accused me that I dismissed hartzofspace's advice because of her gender (which is a sexist reason) and you stubbornly kept insisting to teeth even after proving why It wasn't the case (I dimissed her post for the OP's sake since he's a man and I explained here why that isn't a good advice for men).

I didn't want to mention you but don't deny that it didn't happen.


Quote:
men who have never seemed desperate themselves may advise other men to never give up or never take a break, because they've not experienced a dry spell long enough to start appearing desperate to women. so they don't know how it looks or feels. so i think 'stop looking' often means 'take a break, distract yourself, calm down, work on other areas, then re-engage'



That's a totally different advice and I don't need to be taught about it, that's a given that any man with the least experience should realize it, that's exactly why I told JanuaryMan to find a job before anything else.



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22 Feb 2013, 6:05 am

mds_02 wrote:
If that's the case, I think the way you're going about things is going to eventually cause you more harm than failure would. I've had periods in my life where I felt much the same. It's easier not to try. The damage that does to your psyche, because it is not as immediate, is easier to ignore than the pain of failure. But, in the end, I think you'll end up worse off for not trying.

I wish there was some way I could talk you out of that sort of thinking.


I'd love you to go back in time and tell that to my thirteen year old self. That was the last time I ever asked anyone out for a date - and got shot down very badly. I'm now at a point where there are times I'd like to ask but the past doesn't lie.



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22 Feb 2013, 6:44 am

Boo, go and find the link that demonstrates i called you a 'sexist jerk'. if it happened like that, then the proof is in the pudding. this is the scond time you have recently accused me of saying something that i didn't actually say, and you must know that it is vey easy to disprove your claim. i don't know if it is intentional misrepresentation or just due to a bad memory, but on a forum where all posts are easily verifiable there is no excuse.


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22 Feb 2013, 6:57 am

hyperlexian wrote:
Boo, go and find the link that demonstrates i called you a 'sexist jerk'. if it happened like that, then the proof is in the pudding. this is the scond time you have recently accused me of saying something that i didn't actually say, and you must know that it is vey easy to disprove your claim. i don't know if it is intentional misrepresentation or just due to a bad memory, but on a forum where all posts are easily verifiable there is no excuse.


You take things too literally (or you're trying to be funny), yes, your posts there indicated that you were obviously accusing me that I am discriminating against hartz's gender, it was crystal clear, without literally saying the word.

Do not insult people's intelligence.



hyperlexian
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22 Feb 2013, 7:08 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Boo, go and find the link that demonstrates i called you a 'sexist jerk'. if it happened like that, then the proof is in the pudding. this is the scond time you have recently accused me of saying something that i didn't actually say, and you must know that it is vey easy to disprove your claim. i don't know if it is intentional misrepresentation or just due to a bad memory, but on a forum where all posts are easily verifiable there is no excuse.


You take things too literally, yes, your posts there indicated that you were obviously accusing me that I am discriminating against hartz's gender, it's crystal clear, without literally saying the word.

Do not insult people's intelligence.
you stated quite plainly that you were called a sexist jerk, and when i challenged you on it, you accused me specifically. since it did not happen, you would do well not to claim it. i did not imply that with my words, and if your words were actually sexist you would have gotten a warning from a moderator and not a veiled insult.

at the time, my point had been that you had dismissed someone's advice because of their gender - you did not think their advice could work for a man, and you used their own personal experience as a woman as a bad example of what could work for a man. you then got upset when someone dismissed your advice because of your lack of sexual experience. i pointed out that there was a parallel in both situations.

neither dismissal was particularly fair or nice, but they were strikingly similar - people seem to think that advice from someone who isn't living a certain situation cannot possibly work. but that is not always the case.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Feb 2013, 7:25 am

hyperlexian wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Boo, go and find the link that demonstrates i called you a 'sexist jerk'. if it happened like that, then the proof is in the pudding. this is the scond time you have recently accused me of saying something that i didn't actually say, and you must know that it is vey easy to disprove your claim. i don't know if it is intentional misrepresentation or just due to a bad memory, but on a forum where all posts are easily verifiable there is no excuse.


You take things too literally, yes, your posts there indicated that you were obviously accusing me that I am discriminating against hartz's gender, it's crystal clear, without literally saying the word.

Do not insult people's intelligence.
you stated quite plainly that you were called a sexist jerk, and when i challenged you on it, you accused me specifically. since it did not happen, you would do well not to claim it. i did not imply that with my words, and if your words were actually sexist you would have gotten a warning from a moderator and not a veiled insult.



You're the one with a bad memory.

I said:

Quote:
That what I said in the other thread and I was condemned and accused of being a sexist jerk ...ha!


I didn't say I was called "sexist jerk".

Duh!


And no, it wasn't a fair parallel; my post was intended to help the OP, while periphery's post was obviously intended as attempt to shame me.