Is Women's Problem That They Don't Feel the Pain of Rejectio

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No, I wouldn't separate it at all, since from a reproductive perspective that's really the whole point. But sometimes it's all too easy to put one's personal sexual desires above being attracted to the personality of the other person. And when it's personally happened to me, the "I WANT SEX" sign is actually quite insulting and invasive. It's as if the guy's already in my pants without my permission!

Now, I know if a guy's attracted to me he's probably already in my pants anyways. But I appreciate the courtesy of keeping it to himself until the point I give some flirtatious indication I'm inviting him in.

I think Daemonic-Jackal's objection is not that those statements are dishonest in themselves, but that they are sometimes used as a cop-out. For example, suppose a guy asks out a girl but he hasn't washed in a week and although the girl would otherwise date him, she finds the smell repulsive. Instead of saying, "I would, but you need to shower first because you stink", she says, "sorry I'm not interested." The difference is that with the second response the guy is going to ask out girl after girl not knowing what is driving them away, whereas with the first response a fixable problem is brought to his attention. It may be cruel to tell him, "you stink!" but when he asks out the next girl hopefully he won't and that'll be better for him and everyone else in the long-run.

The real, unsolved, problem for Daemonic-Jackal is that sometimes people don't know why they aren't attracted to someone.

It's true. Very often people don't know why they are or aren't attracted to someone. These things frequently happen at a subconscious level. But even if the girl saying "no" has a reason, that reason is nobody else's business but hers. Of course he wants to know why she said no. That curiosity is very natural. But it is human nature to be curious about things that are none of our business. Wanting to know doesn't make it our business.

The bottom line is, it's her business and her business alone why she said no. Asking "why not" is innappropriate prying. It is as inappropriate as asking "what medications do you take", and for the same reason. Curiosity doesn't justify prying.

I wasn't saying it is right to go around asking, just that in a sense Daemonic-Jackal has a fair point. If it is a fixable problem then it would probably benefit the guy to know what it was, in preparation for future encounters. I'm currently looking for a flat, and many of the prospective flatmates I've met have ended up turning me down. It's very discouraging to be rejected for seemingly no reason whatsoever, and to drive the knife further in, to know that you cannot ask for feedback.

Of course you can't ask the question, but it sure hurts.

That's what friends are for. If it's something that is uniformly off-puttting to women (like not taking a shower, or something else not unique to a particular woman), it will be obvious to friends.

The thing is, the curiosity itself is very off-putting. Accepting "no" gracefully is a very attractive quality. Being curious why not (it comes across as morbidly curious) is very unattractive. It's best to put a clampdown on that feeling when around the woman in question and only let it out in the company of friends. I don't think he appreciates how truly toxic it is. Friends can help. Or if they say "I dunno" this board itself could help, if there really is something that jumps out as being the likely cause. There have been countless threads where somebody posts their scenario and it is blindingly obvious even in typed form. Better to find out from a friend or from a board than even hint at that curiosity around the women in question. The curiosity itself feels like a sort of pressure to justify the rejection, as though the woman should justify it. The underlying idea that she should have an acceptable reason for saying no is a deal-killer and toxic. Better to go to friends or come here.

The very idea that a woman should say "yes" unless she has a good reason for saying "no" is a toxic idea. Jettisoning it is the best way to get to "yes". So there- some applicable advice.

Last edited by Janissy on 19 Apr 2010, 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

taking rejection personally is a symptom of not getting rejected enough. i get subtly rejected a few times a week (i.e. by realizing an interaction is going nowhere and the girl not reciprocating some direct eye contact or not showing any non-verbal signs of interest). pushing it to having them reject you in a blatant verbal way, not in female doublespeak is poor, poor form.

trying to flip a girl from friends to romantic partners is very difficult and it goes against the way they fit men into categories the first 30 seconds they meet them. sure, the inexperienced woman will probably want to be befriended first, but the ones you guys are falling for certainly do not want to be. they like the thrill of being swept off their feet, which is why the guys you refer to as jerks are taking all your romantic interests.

Of course it will; as I say I know better than to ask the question. I'm just saying that rightly or wrongly I can understand where Jackal is coming from. I'm not saying people should go around begging the object of their desire to tell them why they aren't succeeding. That's just silly.

I wasn't aware there was a specific quota for rejection.


Yes.



Well...I object to being placed in this category. In any case, one doesn't have to be a jerk to sweep a girl off their feet but that is a different matter.


If you don't know them as friends first, how are you supposed to decide whether you are compatible or not?

mess up with many "objects of desire" (not a very feminist way to put it ) in a short period of time (one month) and you will find out for yourself without even making anyone feel awkward. on top of that, asking women to verbalize how you messed up is useless since it's fundamentally the wrong kind of information you need to fix your approach. the information your body uses for interacting with people is almost a type of procedural information not too far away from riding a bicycle. besides written communication, remember that all communication is a type of motor coordination. of course there is thought behind that movement of speech articulators and your body in general, but you can be saying the most god damn boring things and still manage to make a woman attracted all by the way you look at her as you say it.

of course, being dumped by a girlfriend is much more complex than this and often involves a lot of careful consideration on her part and history but I have feeling a significant portion of you guys are not talking about this.

I have said THREE TIMES that I agree with this.

Yes!

Yeah, well 'objects of desire' can refer to men as well, y'know.

I think he's bringing up something a little different than what we've been discussing. We've been discussing whether it's a good idea. You've said 3 imes you agree it isn't.

But roadgames brings up something else entirely. That it's a moot point. That whatever the girl told the date-requestor might actually be wrong. If pressed she might make up something she thought consciously ("I don't like your haircut") but the actual reason comes from body language, something she wouldn't even be able to verbalize.

1. There isn't, but more rejections help desenitize you to them. You learn a lot from rejections, too.

2. They're going to place you in these categories within the first 30 seconds whether you like it or not. It's exactly how you place a girl into "I'd have sex with her" and "I wouldn't have sex with her" categories. Unlike men, though, they take 30 seconds instead of a second because they factor your social skills into the equation. This is why being good at first impressions is crucial.

3. You absolutely do not have to be a jerk to sweep a girl off her feet. You can be a confident geek who subtly non-verbally signals his attraction for the girl from the moment he gets a second in a non-formal situation or alone with her.

Last edited by roadGames on 19 Apr 2010, 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

This will seem like a bizarre parsing of words, but the ideal is to be acquaintences first, rather than friends.

you couldn't put it better.