Blog post on the epidemic of forced celibacy in males

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hyperlexian
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20 Oct 2010, 12:10 pm

RICKY5 wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

nostromo, RICKY5, Craig28: i provided alternatives for lonely men about 11 time in this thread alone. i also already refuted every single one of your points already. about 17 page ago i even provided evidence to back up my statements. i can see clearly that you have not really read what i have written, so if you do not have anything new to add, i do not see the point of debating the same points again.

As soon as experiences come up that disagree with your ideology(secular religion) you immediately go to the "lalalalalala can't hear you!" track of argument.

no, i've spent 32 pages arguing my point, so i would say i do the exact opposite of shutting down arguments. but if you cannot be bothered to actually read what i write, then why would i keep on addressing the same statements? you ignore every single argument i make, so what is the point in addressing YOUR arguments?

in fact, you still have not addressed the fact that you DID state that women are worthless if they don't have sex with a man. care to explain that, or will you ignore it a third time?

i did address those points you made that were actually unique, if you have bothered to read my subsequent post...

(secular religion does not descibe my ideas at all. is secular religion pro-choice or pro-evolution, for example? nope.)

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greenblue
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20 Oct 2010, 1:10 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

nostromo, RICKY5, Craig28: i provided alternatives for lonely men about 11 time in this thread alone.

Really? frankly, I would have thought you didn't care for that that much, I haven't read most of the thread, I will look into it.

Quote:

i also already refuted every single one of your points already.

Refuting might be apparent, especially if the oponnent's position is weaker, so I tend to doubt claims of actual refutation but rather, debating better than your oponnent, the evidence you said you provided is what you may feel it refutes the issue you are against, so you may actually have refuted some points. I'll look into it, but before that I pressume the alleged evidence may likely be under debate itself.

Quote:

people who buy prostitutes

I never have bought a prostitute, I have paid them for their service, instead.

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hyperlexian
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20 Oct 2010, 1:37 pm

greenblue wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

nostromo, RICKY5, Craig28: i provided alternatives for lonely men about 11 time in this thread alone.

Really? frankly, I would have thought you didn't care for that that much, I haven't read most of the thread, I will look into it.

Quote:

i also already refuted every single one of your points already.

Quote:

people who buy prostitutes

I never have bought a prostitute, I have paid them for their service, instead.

really? you also ignored every response i gave to your arguments?

EDIT: i refuted the same arguments again and again by providing EVIDENCE, way back in this thread (and in other threads). there has been no evidence at all to support your position, or those of the other posters listed above. therefore, i refuted their (and your) claims. you can try to pick apart my sources, but there are more where they came from, both online and IRL. i suggest you do some research of your own if you would like to effectively argue about this.

i will correct my phrasing, instead of saying "people who buy prostitutes": people who pay prostitutes for the privilege of using them for sexual purposes. i think you understood what i mean the first time though, didn't you?

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greenblue
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20 Oct 2010, 2:50 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

really? you also ignored every response i gave to your arguments?

No, I haven't, questioning a position isn't the same as ignoring it and I haven't even rejected it, now the apparience of responses being ignored from a party seems to be a common thing on discussion, when the other party still disagrees, in fact, I believe I'm giving some consideration to your position, I'm willing to read the evidence you provided, I missed it because I haven't read most of the thread, so I haven't read your evidence, but I have read on the web something about an increase of ilegal prostitution in Germany, but there are different positions of why is that, such as being an apparent increase because of better identification.

Quote:

EDIT: i refuted the same arguments again and again by providing EVIDENCE, way back in this thread (and in other threads). there has been no evidence at all to support your position, or those of the other posters listed above. therefore, i refuted their (and your) claims. you can try to pick apart my sources, but there are more where they came from, both online and IRL. i suggest you do some research of your own if you would like to effectively argue about this.

I haven't claim to refute your arguments, because I actually haven't, nor I have rejected your evidence nor your position entirely, and, I have read that you have admitted that that can be under debate still, so, I'm curious about your evidence, so I'll have a look at it.

I'm also curious about educating the Johns, that if you haven't explain that already here.

Quote:

i will correct my phrasing, instead of saying "people who buy prostitutes": people who pay prostitutes for the privilege of using them for sexual purposes. i think you understood what i mean the first time though, didn't you?

I did, but such phrasing seems to illustrate your ideological position, thus the same thing being looked from different ideological angles, the issue is that using phrases like that often are questionable and innacurate and misleading, customers buy their service not the women to own.

Quote:

people who pay prostitutes for the privilege of using them for sexual purposes.

You are providing evidence but the issue is that an ideology is behind it, and I mean by showing it, the evidence may be correct but the ideology of the party showing the source, can still be questionable.

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Last edited by greenblue on 20 Oct 2010, 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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20 Oct 2010, 3:05 pm

Craig28 wrote:

There only two ideal choices for a man to get sex: have a relationship or pay for it. The 3rd and most grotesque option. which is obvious, is the one that is the most heinous for a women.

Your hand and masturbation toys is another option, sex dolls is another option, if the issue with prostitution is a problem or a no no, then these are the other alternatives, which are less harmful, real women would not be harmed

Quote:

Hperlexian, its obvious that we have different views on the same subject: your a women and I am a man, we've been brought up in different environments with different opinions and visions for what our eyes have witnessed as we progress through life.

It is an ideological position, a feminist branch in this case, pro-sex feminism seems to support the legalization of prostitution I believe, as well as the libertarian position, from a male pointview, it may differ, of course, men who benefit from it, would tend to support it.

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nostromo
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20 Oct 2010, 3:15 pm

And from the pragamatic branch, here's some evidence and conclusions on legalising prostitution

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy-and-c ... onclusions

And an excerpt:
"Sex workers interviewed in this study discussed their rights under the PRA (2003) and how these rights had positively impacted on their health and safety. They articulated increased power in their negotiations and dealings with clients and management and that the law change had created an environment where they felt more supported by the legal system. Their confidence in being able to use the legal system was growing with the positive experiences of some co-workers in their dealings with police and the courts. Street-based workers remain the sector most likely to experience violent or abusive attacks from clients. There was still limited reporting of such incidents to the police, but this is likely to improve in time as their confidence grows."

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20 Oct 2010, 4:54 pm

nostromo - thank for the link and information. i agree that some conditions improve for the women who are working in the regulated portion of the industry. to me, improvement in that area is not enough because things either stay equally bad or worsen in other ways, just not necessarily for those particular women. i appreciate you providing more information from NZ as i am not as familiar with research in that area.

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hyperlexian
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20 Oct 2010, 4:58 pm

greenblue - and nostromo - i apologize for being too harsh. after many many pages of debate i was feeling a bit overwhelmed and frustrated. sorry for being a bit dismissive. i will endeavour to track down some legit sources later on so nobody has to slog through all 32 pages.

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HopeGrows
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20 Oct 2010, 8:02 pm

HopeGrows wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

@HopeGrows, legalization of prostitution has been shown to have little or no positive effect on the sex workers. and with legal prostitution comes an exponential rise in illegal prostitution. the netherlands can no longer effectively police it at this point. amsterdam is overwhelmed by gangsters and crime associated with the trade. sweden has the best approach: help the workers and police the customers.

I'm including a link below to a metadata study done in 2007 by the New Zealand Ministry of Justice on the impact of legalizing and/or decriminalizing prostitution around the world.

Procon.org

From the study:
"Conflicting results – There were conflicting results about impacts, frequently supporting different ideological views. In general, feminist and religious groups have tended to see few positive effects of decriminalisation or legalisation. Those in health organisations, human rights groups and sex worker collectives have generally done the opposite."

The study concludes that there haven't been enough studies of the impact of legalization and/or decriminalization to draw concrete conclusions. However it appears that the impacts are closely tied to how legalization and/or decriminalization is implemented. Most countries have not taken a comprehensive approach that includes requiring insurance companies to offer medical insurance to sex workers, requiring that customers be tested, require the use of condoms (female and/or male), etc. Unfortunately, it seems that most countries have floated a kind of grudging approach to legalization and/or decriminalization, and IMO, that's not what's needed to introduce real change into this industry.

Don't mean to put too fine a point on things, but I posted the New Zealand study back on page 26 (reposted above).

I certainly haven't been mocking you @hyperlexian. But I do feel like you've been using faulty logic. Several governments have made half-hearted, incomplete, poorly policed and regulated attempts at decriminalizing/legalizing prostitution. You're extrapolating that poor effort into the conclusion that legalization/decriminalization is a failure. However, anything that is poorly conceived, poorly designed, poorly executed and poorly controlled is necessarily going to produce a poor result - that's really the only hypothesis that's been proven by the attempts made to date. Continuing to draw conclusions about the impact of legalization/decriminalization on prostitution based on these flawed attempts is folly. :shrug:

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hyperlexian
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20 Oct 2010, 8:58 pm

HopeGrows wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

that was the same study? i was looking at his post on my phone, and actually went and read the whole study at the time you presented it. i appreciated that he took the time to cite a study, as opposed to just arguing opinions as he had done before.

i live in the real world. i live in the world where i think that even the most regulated and policed systems still result in psychological damage done to the prostitutes. no, i have no evidence to support that side, but you have no evidence to support the opposite side.

i think you live in an idealistic world where you think that if only there were a perfect system, then the women would emerge unscathed. i do not believe that is possible. no faulty logic in my case there. it is a profession that, overall, degrades and damages women.

i find your logic faulty. you state that the current system of prostitution is detrimental for women, yet you support its continued existence. that makes no sense at all. to you, it is about the ideas. to me, it is about the people. if there were another profession that was as emotionally damaging as prostitution, i would oppose that too.

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HopeGrows
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20 Oct 2010, 9:56 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

Yes, all 42 pages of it. So I'm kinda irritated that you steadfastly claim that I have no evidence to support my perspective, when actually, I provided it several pages ago. While it's not exhaustive, it is comprehensive. It does advise much more study is required before solid conclusions can be made, one way or the other.

hyperlexian wrote:

i live in the real world. i live in the world where i think that even the most regulated and policed systems still result in psychological damage done to the prostitutes. no, i have no evidence to support that side, but you have no evidence to support the opposite side.

i think you live in an idealistic world where you think that if only there were a perfect system, then the women would emerge unscathed. i do not believe that is possible. no faulty logic in my case there. it is a profession that, overall, degrades and damages women.

No, I don't think you do live in the real world when it comes to this topic. I accept the fact that prostitution has been around for thousands of years, and its not going to go away. So while my approach is pragmatic, and designed to help and protect the real women who are doing the real job right now - it is not idealistic. You can't accept that any prostitute, under any circumstance, would not be damaged by her choice of profession. That's because you can't accept that there are lots of people in this world who simply don't share your value system. I'm sorry, but logic is not the basis of your argument - your sense of morality is.

hyperlexian wrote:

i find your logic faulty. you state that the current system of prostitution is detrimental for women, yet you support its continued existence. that makes no sense at all. to you, it is about the ideas. to me, it is about the people. if there were another profession that was as emotionally damaging as prostitution, i would oppose that too.

Your entitled to your opinion @hyperlexian. I am a pragmatist. I've found that in most situations, its better to accept people as they are and try to mitigate the damage related to behavior. You will not "educate" men into giving up prostitution. You will not shame them into it, or berate them into it. You will not even be able to "educate," berate or shame women into giving it up. But it is possible to make it safer, cleaner, more profitable, and generally much more equitable to the sex workers involved. I'm all for that.

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hyperlexian
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20 Oct 2010, 10:19 pm

let's look at some facts. i've included some scholarly links and quoted wikipedia, as they have neatly compiled some information,

first of all, the study that both HopeGrows and nostromo presented has been criticized as biased, because it was authored only by people who already supported the sex industry, not neutral agencies. from Wikipedia: Prostitution in New Zealand (link):

Quote:

Following the release of the evaluation of the Prostitution Reform Act 2003, suggestions of bias were raised, and critics such as the Humanitarian Chronicle stated that the authors of the report were supporters of the sex industry, and thus not neutral. They stated that the situation was much worse than presented in the evaluation. [28]

Alex Penk, Maxim Institute's Policy and Research Manager said that: "The report released by the Prostitution Law Review Committee today clearly shows that the Prostitution Reform Act is not making life safer for many of New Zealand's most vulnerable men, women and young people" [29]

here's an assessment about street prostitution in New Zealand, which does not seem to have improved since decriminalization:

Wikipedia: Prostitution in New Zealand (link):

Quote:

The most dangerous form of prostitution is street prostitution: walking or loitering in a particular area and waiting for clients to drive by. Street prostitutes gather on and around Karangahape Road and Hunter's Corner in Auckland, Cuba/Marion Streets in Wellington, and Manchester Street, in Christchurch, amongst other places. Some street prostitutes are underage.[36] Some teenage prostitutes are pimped by gang members.[37] Street prostitution is the most likely entry point for underage people to the sex industry.[38] Street prostitution is particularly problematic in Manukau. Councillor Dick Quax said: (...) involvement of gangs and organised crime in street prostitution has become evident (...) Street prostitution also attracts offensive litter, disorder, drugs and intimidation." [39]

regarding child prostitution in New Zealand:

Wikipedia: Prostitution in New Zealand (link):

Quote:

Though child prostitution is illegal and the authorities attempt to enforce the law there are occasional incidents, both on the streets and inside brothels.

Some community workers had found girls "as young as 10 or 11" selling sex, and one mentioned students from a West Auckland high school who "turned tricks" at lunchtime.[44] Children as young as 13 were also removed from the streets of South Auckland.[36]

Brothel owners have been arrested for employing underage girls, including a case where prosecutors applied for the first time the law banning sexual slavery, adopted in 2006 in accordance with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (the case involved a Christchurch brothel owner who was charged with exploiting underage girls in prostitution; the two girls, ages 16 and 17, worked at the brothel for more than a year).[45]

In 2005, ECPAT New Zealand and the Stop Demand Foundation (two agencies which fight against the sexual exploitation of children) questioned the effectiveness of New Zealand's legislation in relation to underage prostitution; the agencies pointed to a police survey of the New Zealand sex industry which showed that 210 children under the age of 18 years were identified as selling sex, with three-quarters being concentrated in one Police District.[46]

about the number of women who are victims of sex trafficking in the United Kingdom:

synopsis here: http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/new_uk_study_one_in_ten_women_in_prostitution_are_slaves
the full text can be found here: PROJECT ACUMEN ACPO MIGRATION AND ASSOCIATED MATTERS

Quote:

An explosive new report out of the U.K. has estimated that at least one in ten women in prostitution in the country are victims of human trafficking. It also found that at least 15% of migrant women in prostitution are forced or coerced into the trade and up to 40% of them may be exploited just shy of slavery. These findings could help blow the lid off the notion that exploitation and trafficking in commercial sex is rare.

this is from UN's Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women. the netherlands sought to defend their system, but the committee had some criticism:

UN Report 2007 (link)

Quote:

But Committee members questioned the validity of recent studies in the Netherlands that showed prostitution was a profession of choice and that obstacles to leaving the sex trade were less than previously feared. They expressed concern that 80 per cent of sex workers were foreign women, while 20 per cent were of Dutch origin, noting that foreigners often lacked the language, education and technical skills to compete for jobs in the traditional labour market.

in contrast, sweden's system of criminalization for the customers has had some positive effect (including the fact that there was a nearly 50% drop in men who purchase sexual services):

http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/new_uk_study_one_in_ten_women_in_prostitution_are_slaves Sweden: Justice Department - Evaluation of the ban on the purchase of sexual services

Quote:

The Survey concludes that prostitution in Sweden, in contrast to comparable countries, since the ban was imposed in any case has not increased. The ban on the purchase of sexual services has also worked against the establishment of organized crime in Sweden. Criminalization has thus contributed to the fight against prostitution and sex trafficking.

The ban on the purchase of sexual services also have a normative effect. There has been a marked change in attitudes towards the purchase of sexual services in the period coinciding with the criminalization of buying sex. There is now strong support for the ban on the purchase of sexual services in Sweden. The ban has proved to have a deterrent effect on sex buyers. The investigation has not been able to find that criminalization adversely affected the people who engage in prostitution.

the only research we have is based on the current systems, because hypothetical systems do not exist. therefore, this research is based on the current state of affairs. i do not think that encouraging men to use prostitutes is a good idea, given that the current system is detrimental to the well-being of women in the trade. if we had the ideal system, which i outlined my requirements for, i would step aside. but we do not have that sysytem. we have a trade that causes damage. therefore, it is not logical to encourage men to solicit prostitutes.

p.s. HopeGrows, you missed my point about RICKY5. first of all, because the current system of prostitution is a trade that hurts women (which the research above agrees with), his act of soliciting the women is harmful in and of iteself. also, he (and you) have no idea whether she works for a pimp or agency or how much control she actually has over her own sexuality.

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HopeGrows
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20 Oct 2010, 11:17 pm

Well, @hyperlexian, if its in Wikipedia, it must be true.

I don't think I missed your point about @RICKY5 at all. I know you believe that prostitution is evil and all, so therefore whatever happens in the context of prostitution is fruit of the poisonous tree. If we accept your premise that all prostitutes are incapable of telling the truth about their profession, it stands to reason that you actually have no idea what her true story is, either. You're assuming that she is damaged, because that assumption supports your perspective. I'm assuming that she isn't damaged because she is practicing her profession in a relatively positive environment: clean, safe, paid a living wage, little risk of arrest. And oh yeah, she continues to practice her profession.

And for the record, @hyperlexian, we have lots of trades that cause damage. Know how we address those problems? Trade unions that use political power and money to advocate for their members' rights, and the creation and implementation of legal and regulatory measures. We don't stop mining coal when people get killed - we get the bad mine owners and lax inspectors out of the business. We didn't stop generating nuclear power after Three Mile Island - we figured out a better system of controls. We don't stop surgeons from operating on patients because they make mistakes - we get rid of the incompetent doctors and come up with better processes for everybody else. We don't stop growing and processing food because of an ecoli outbreak - we trace it back to the source and fix the problem there.

But somehow sex workers are left out. They have no one to advocate on their behalf because too many people think what they do is immoral. It's not going to stop them from doing it. Instead, its just going to perpetuate an atmosphere in which they will continue to be exploited. But at least people who have nothing to do with them, or their lives, or their troubles, will sleep better at night, because they can pretend those sex workers don't exist.

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Nostromos
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21 Oct 2010, 12:36 am

Quote:

RICKY5 said: Nostromos is making no sense at all. Every relationship is an exchange. Be it social status, emotional excitement, money, or pleasure, something is always exchanged. Nostromos is under the delusion that he should get something for free when nothing in life is ever free.

I'm apparently still under the delusion that people can see that I'm telling the truth. I never said anything is free. I'm saying the price for a relationship is too high for some men to afford, and then women have the nerve to talk about taking the prostitutes away.

Quote:

Hyperlexian said: Nostromos, do you understand that women are human beings, and that their own safety and well-being is equally important to some sex-starved sociopath's? multiple women took care of THEIR OWN safety by refusing to sleep with him. he could have taken care of HIMSELF by getting massive amounts of therapy. and if his insanity progressed to the point of hurting innocent people he should have either checked himself into hospital or killed himself. he should have sacrificed HIMSELF.

You after thirty years of hostility and rejection from the opposite sex? Sex-starved sociopath. Deal with it or go kill yourself, that's very helpful. Oh wait, I could help heal you by accepting your awkward advances and being your boyfriend? Or just a sex friend? I don't know, I've sworn an oath against such a thing because I secretly despise the weak and the wounded. Yes, women shun ToadOfSteel because he's a dangerous sociopath.

Quote:

Hyperlexian said: because he was born with a mental illness. he could have fixed his own issues, but he did not.

I guess the women protesting in the Congo are just whiny little girls, then.

Quote:

Hyperlexian said: there are laws built around that very right[to safety], silly!

So?

Quote:

Hyperlexian said: we aren't talking about pity sex. we are talking about women risking their lives with a sociopathic monster.

Or, they're women risking their precious egos with a man they happen to find unattractive. Look, chronic sexual rejection hurts like a sonuvabitch -- if what you've written is true, then you have not experienced this -- and when you kick a nice dog enough times, you've got a mean dog on your hands. Yes, killers enjoy subjugating other human beings. Sometimes they wouldn't have gotten that way without their environment. Pedro Alonzo Lopez was horribly abused by his mother, John Gacy was abused by his stepfather, Aileen Wuournos was abused by the men in her life, and George Sodini had no life guidance, a bullying brother, and was chronically rejected by women. Does that give them the right to kill? No, and if you knew their pain you'd probably kill too. You could reduce their likelihood of going postal by sleeping around with them, though.

It's plain that you have some kind of agenda against johns because all prostitutes suffer horribly. I refute it thus:

Quote:

Apx said: I used to work in a brothel, the best one in my country. Here's what I learned:

1. Sex can be fun with anyone who isn't extremely disgusting. I saw my job as a rather well paid social service, and I really enjoyed helping men with their... *cough*... problem. I always tried to get to know them a little bit and why they were in that situation so I could adjust accordingly. I was, however, somewhat different of course...

2. NT working girls do lie constantly. This always shocked me. I don't think most women had the ability to detach as much as me, and so needed to create a very large lie to protect themselves. They are still as human as me though, and although they lied, they also enjoyed some of their clients specifically.

3. Of all the women I met (100's, seriously) only two were obviously in danger. One was a meth addicted street worker who'd been doing it since... far too young... she no longer had any real name I could discern. I met her on an outcall where the guy ordered her privately. Another was an Indian woman whose husband took all the money she made. The vast majority were having a ball, due to either sex or money addiction or both, and we all related to each other this fact, often. The only sh***y part of that job was when it got QUIET.

4. It's not all about drugs. Smart hookers don't get hooked on drugs, because it sucks up your pay and screws with your ability to perform. I saw drugs about as much as I saw them in typical parties, because often that's what the guys were doing... having fun. Very few girls I knew were high on the job, and if they were, it was a weekend and they were just partying, too. Cos the thing is if you work in that industry you usually end up sacrificing your weekends, and are looking for fun just like the guys.

5. Those were the best years of my life. I'm not exaggerating. I look back on that time and I sigh with longing. I saw some crazy sh** and I'm so glad. I had the best sex of my life in that job (and that's compared to a very healthy sex life with my last partner of 3 years.) Crazy sixsomes (yeah I didn't even say threesome!) and cool props! Also the most frighteningly large penises, which bordered on beastiality. I met some amazing men, too, even if only briefly.

It also helped me a lot with my social skills.

I wouldn't totally deny the possibility of having some sort of good relationship with an escort. You should be able to tell whether or not the girl is a total dirt bag, as a client of mine discovered about his girl once. The aforementioned street hooker would purposefully avoid letting the guy orgasm to try and get more hours out of him. Even if it took many repeated nights, she'd just leave them hanging in the hope that they'd call her back out of frustration. She laughed as she told me this. At the men's club however, even the girls that needed to lie constantly took their jobs with a lot more grace than that. They worked hard and expected respect.

A few hours with a smart, kind man goes down very well. You might just make some girl's day.

I guess she was lying.

So if a rattlesnake bit you five times on the face, would you kill it? You'd sure as hell want to. You might not. Then you'd spend a miserable ten years saving up for face surgery, missing life opportunities, and getting over it. It's a balanced comparison, believe me.

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21 Oct 2010, 2:55 am

Bla bla bla go out and make something of your lives instead of blaming other people.

If that means see a prostitute, go do it. Arguing here isn't going to help.

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21 Oct 2010, 3:02 am

okay

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