Infidelity Deception and Delusion in Relationship

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ToughDiamond
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04 Oct 2010, 5:05 am

FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
[Also my estranged wife had suffered two previous marriages in which the men had been unfaithful.....when our relationship was still new, she was clearly worried when an ex-partner of mine got in touch with me. She went as far as writing a very nasty letter to her warning her to keep her hands off me, but she never posted it]


Did she trust you and not the other person? Sometimes our partners are more concerned about the third person influencing their mate, not that their mate will initiate infidelity.


At the time I don't think she trusted either of us....though during the said phone call my "old flame" had asked if she could phone me again, and I'd said no, which I think demonstrates the strength of my resolve. I think really my partner just didn't know either of us enough to be able to estimate the actual risks, and I was completely on her side about that, because I've been in similar situations and it's easy for the other one to dismiss it all as silly paranoia, but if you don't know the people very well, maybe it's not so paranoid.

Well done for working out how to do the quotes, by the way. 8)

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I have had male friends and haven't thought much about it until recently. While just in conversation, a few friends have confused about me about their intentions while talking about their problems. I have begun distancing myself from them as I don't know what they are up to. Even though I am clear that I have a partner, that doesn't seem to stop them for trying for something more?

Without more detail, it's hard to know if their comments are really cause for concern or not. Was the guy who wanted to talk to my partner about his girlfriend's shortcomings a threat or not? My partner would have said not. I don't think she had any intentions of being unfaithful, but she did seem to enjoy putting me in a precarious position like that, and it was just that kind of behaviour that led me to end the relationship. What she was basically indicating was that emotional infidelity was OK, though we didn't know the term in those days. She also used to bother me by saying that our relationship was an "open" one, though she never explained in any detail what she wanted to be allowed to do, over and above the freedom of a "standard" relationship.

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I have started friendships with those who seem more aloof and rude. But they seem honest. Not sure I can really sense anyone "liking me." I was seeing my late husband for more than a year before I realized his intentions - and he pursued me relentlessly. Lol.

If, as a man, I were aloof and rude, I don't see how I could pursue anybody.


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Yet Aspies are blamed for emotional cruelty...I am more confused everyday when dealing with people as I don't know why I am the bad person when the other person is doing the name-calling. I don't really understand it any easier than when I was younger.

Agreed - I don't know how an Aspie (who is by definiton socially inept) could work out how to do emotional cruelty. It might look that way to somebody who didn't understand how social ineptitude can look like cruelty.

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It is difficult to be romantic and honest at the same time. I prefer honesty but many women want the romantic gestures. I think the expectation for the man to be the sole romantic places the man at a disadvantage in relationships. Any failure in the relationship can then be attributed to the man - forget one birthday and you will be reminded of it forever! All other problems pale in comparison.

Indeed.....the mainstream chasing game would seem to put all the responsibility onto the man - he did the chasing, he was the one who was so convinced that they were made for each other, while she was wisely reluctant - so if it goes wrong then it's his fault. In my book, whatever the rituals indicate, both partners are equally responsible. So much for starting as you mean to continue. The rules won't let you!



ToughDiamond
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04 Oct 2010, 5:31 am

FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:

[Yes.....I often used to wonder how I managed to get involved with such obviously harmful women. I think it's something to do with the Aspie thing about liking "anybody who likes me." And I find it very hard to confidently conclude that a partner is too harmful to continue with - I'm sure one in particular was messing with my head on infidelity and deprivation, but often this subtle emotional cruelty stuff is very hard for an Aspie to see...


Is an aspie more likely to be cheated on? If we believe the words of the partners of aspies, it is the aspie's behavior that forces the NT into the arms (and the bed) of another person. Does that mean we are to be blamed for their infidelity? It doesn't seem right.


I don't know the statistics for whether Aspies get cheated on more often than NTs. But I don't see how anybody can have an affair behind the back of their partner without knowing that they're breaking the rules. If the behaviour has been all that bad, the other partner has the option of ending the relationship.....an unattached person cannot have an affair. Also they could simply issue an open threat - "stop x or I'll go and find somebody else" - and there's no need to hide it from the original partner......if they do hide it, they're doing so because they want to keep the original partner from knowing how bad things have become, so that they'll remain there for them in case the secret affair goes wrong. The original partner's behaviour would have to be pretty heinous to deserve such betrayal, yet I think it's usually behaviour that was never really challenged or talked through, that gives rise to the affair. Because to give fair warning would scupper the safe escape route, and make it plain to the world what they were up to.



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05 Oct 2010, 5:22 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:

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She also used to bother me by saying that our relationship was an "open" one, though she never explained in any detail what she wanted to be allowed to do, over and above the freedom of a "standard" relationship.


That would confuse me. I would need clarity and want to know that my partner and I agree about (and understand) our concepts of relationship.

[Iquote]If, as a man, I were aloof and rude, I don't see how I could pursue anybody.


I wasn't very clear here. I have had friends who were aloof and rude when I met them. My late husband was friendly when he approached me. I was rude and aloof. I still don't know why he pursued me.

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So much for starting as you mean to continue. The rules won't let you!


Please forgive my quoting. Its not working for me today.

I'm not sure that the rituals and rules were ever necessary.



FemmeFatale
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05 Oct 2010, 5:28 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:

[....if they do hide it, they're doing so because they want to keep the original partner from knowing how bad things have become, so that they'll remain there for them in case the secret affair goes wrong.


So those who can't stand to be alone are likely to have someone on the side, so that when one relationship ends, they are not alone. I'm not one who needs constant companionship (even in friendships) so this behavior is strange to me.



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06 Oct 2010, 4:51 am

FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:

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She also used to bother me by saying that our relationship was an "open" one, though she never explained in any detail what she wanted to be allowed to do, over and above the freedom of a "standard" relationship.


That would confuse me. I would need clarity and want to know that my partner and I agree about (and understand) our concepts of relationship.

[Iquote]If, as a man, I were aloof and rude, I don't see how I could pursue anybody.


I wasn't very clear here. I have had friends who were aloof and rude when I met them. My late husband was friendly when he approached me. I was rude and aloof. I still don't know why he pursued me.

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So much for starting as you mean to continue. The rules won't let you!


Please forgive my quoting. Its not working for me today.

I'm not sure that the rituals and rules were ever necessary.


I guess he must have felt that you were worth it. I haven't known any partner-to-be who has been unfriendly to me from the start......but one or two of them have suddenly appeared to lose interest a little later, which I gather is something to do with the "rules" because I usually ended up with a relationship with them, suggesting that their reluctance wasn't genuine.

I'm rather skeptical of "the rules" too......on the one hand a glance at animal behaviour shows that for many species the female behaves reluctantly during the courtship phase, on the other hand I wonder how much of the human "game" is distorted by media influence.

No problem about the quotes. They did the job.



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06 Oct 2010, 5:12 am

FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:

[....if they do hide it, they're doing so because they want to keep the original partner from knowing how bad things have become, so that they'll remain there for them in case the secret affair goes wrong.


So those who can't stand to be alone are likely to have someone on the side, so that when one relationship ends, they are not alone. I'm not one who needs constant companionship (even in friendships) so this behavior is strange to me.


The two women who have been unfaithful to me both seemed terrified of being partnerless, and I presume that's why they went that way. But they were also both non-orgasmic, so it might have had something to do with the quest for the elusive orgasm, for all I know.

Definitely the only time I went anywhere near infidelity, a lot of the problem was that I was scared to strike out alone........I was still fairly young and could well remember the years of loneliness when I had no girlfriend, and I didn't want to go back to that. The "illicit" lady I rejected sexually actually boosted my confidence enough for me to take the plunge and leave my relationship, because although I couldn't be sure of her continuing to want me, she'd made it clear that she at least found me physically acceptable. In those days I couldn't believe anybody would want me.

These days it's very different - I still get strong feelings of being utterly undesirable, but intellectually I can easily work out that it's not really the case, because I've rarely been partnerless since the 1960s. Also I believe that "overlapping" harms the overlapper because they don't get the time to get used to the changeover....then there's the problem of how to build up the new lady's trust after demonstrating that I can't be trusted. And there's the guilt feelings. All in all, a bit of loneliness and insecurity is a small price to pay for peace of mind.



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06 Oct 2010, 7:12 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:

[I guess he must have felt that you were worth it. I haven't known any partner-to-be who has been unfriendly to me from the start.......


...But have you ever approached a clueless aspie who can't fathom why you'd talk to her... and she has a look on her face that looks like annoyance - but that's just her facial expression, not her mood. Funny - he always seemed terrified of me during our marriage. Lol.



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06 Oct 2010, 7:22 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:

[The two women who have been unfaithful to me both seemed terrified of being partnerless,

and

Definitely the only time I went anywhere near infidelity, a lot of the problem was that I was scared to strike out alone..


Seems like the same motivation, doesn't it?

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Also I believe that "overlapping" harms the overlapper because they don't get the time to get used to the changeover....then there's the problem of how to build up the new lady's trust after demonstrating that I can't be trusted. And there's the guilt feelings. All in all, a bit of loneliness and insecurity is a small price to pay for peace of mind.


So it seems that if Partner A has an affair with Partner B, when he or she leaves the original partner, it is best to attach to new Partner C, since Partner B will expect infidelity from Partner A and Partner A will always feel guilty about the affair while with Partner B. I know that looks convoluted but I understand what I wrote.

In other words, the straying partner will leave the relationship because it is not working, not because he or she wants to be with the other woman/man.



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07 Oct 2010, 4:58 am

FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:

[I guess he must have felt that you were worth it. I haven't known any partner-to-be who has been unfriendly to me from the start.......


...But have you ever approached a clueless aspie who can't fathom why you'd talk to her... and she has a look on her face that looks like annoyance - but that's just her facial expression, not her mood. Funny - he always seemed terrified of me during our marriage. Lol.


No, traditionally I've been a complete coward and always assumed that if a lady frowns at me, she probably just doesn't like me. Even when they have obviously liked me, I've never been able to believe they want more than casual friendship with me. Though more recently I have befriended one lady with strong autistic traits who was at the time going ballistic at somebody else......it was pretty scary but I somehow managed to calm her down, and found myself doing all kinds of "brave" things that I never thought I'd do. I guess it was because the focus was on their fight rather than on what she thought of me, so the emotional risk wasn't so great. Her volatile temper is quite frightening, and some people do seem to be scared of her, but so she's been as nice as pie to me, at least so far.



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07 Oct 2010, 5:54 am

FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:

[The two women who have been unfaithful to me both seemed terrified of being partnerless,

and

Definitely the only time I went anywhere near infidelity, a lot of the problem was that I was scared to strike out alone..


Seems like the same motivation, doesn't it?


Yes it does. Basically the one who starts a secret affair is using the existing partner as a stepping stone....the victim is good enough to provide bottom-line emotional security until somebody better happens to turn up. Though a lot of unfaithful people have no intentions of getting serious with the new sexual partner or leaving the existing one - I don't know how they do that, reducing the new encounter to a bit of light entertainment.
Quote:
Quote:
Also I believe that "overlapping" harms the overlapper because they don't get the time to get used to the changeover....then there's the problem of how to build up the new lady's trust after demonstrating that I can't be trusted. And there's the guilt feelings. All in all, a bit of loneliness and insecurity is a small price to pay for peace of mind.


So it seems that if Partner A has an affair with Partner B, when he or she leaves the original partner, it is best to attach to new Partner C, since Partner B will expect infidelity from Partner A and Partner A will always feel guilty about the affair while with Partner B. I know that looks convoluted but I understand what I wrote.

In other words, the straying partner will leave the relationship because it is not working, not because he or she wants to be with the other woman/man.

That might "work" as long as Partner C is kept in the dark about Partner A's "purple past." But it's a shame that such shady methods have to be used at all, when all those people are really looking for is love. The term "feet of clay" comes to mind........



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07 Oct 2010, 6:32 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:

[Basically the one who starts a secret affair is using the existing partner as a stepping stone....the victim is good enough to provide bottom-line emotional security until somebody better happens to turn up. Though a lot of unfaithful people have no intentions of getting serious with the new sexual partner or leaving the existing one - I don't know how they do that, reducing the new encounter to a bit of light entertainment.


This is an example of when one partner (the mistress) believes they are in a relationship when in fact they are not. The unfaithful partner does appear to be taking advantage for his or her gratification.

Quote:
[That might "work" as long as Partner C is kept in the dark about Partner A's "purple past." But it's a shame that such shady methods have to be used at all, when all those people are really looking for is love. The term "feet of clay" comes to mind........


Sometimes Partner C is kept in the dark about Partner A and B until the unfaithful partner begins feeling guilty (in the present or about the past) so Partner D is brought into the picture to take the place of Partner C when the **** hits the fan. I have watched this scenario play out. "Unfaithful Partner" collects partners like toys.



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07 Oct 2010, 6:44 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:

[No, traditionally I've been a complete coward and always assumed that if a lady frowns at me, she probably just doesn't like me. Even when they have obviously liked me, I've never been able to believe they want more than casual friendship with me.


Do you believe that to be an aspie trait or do you believe this attitude comes from poor self-esteem? I sometimes feel the same way when I am approached, but then I get confused, because I realize I don't know what they want. My current partner was surprised that I didn't know he loved me (until he told me!) I try to pay extra attention now to everything he says (and my attention span is poor unless I hyperfocus) so I don't miss anything important.



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07 Oct 2010, 7:17 pm

A new thought on deception - or is it perceived deception - in relationships where one or both partners have aspie traits. The aspie is likely not pretending or presenting a false persona to their partner early in the relationship - no matter what the unhappy partners of aspies might think.

Aspie begins relationship (or marriage) with partner. The aspie may be unaware of their traits or behaviors but does not attempt to deceive their partner about their personality. The non-aspie partner can clearly see that their partner is a little "different." This may be fine for a while but then the non-aspie partner tires of their partner's behavior and attempts to justify to all of their friends and family that "aspie" deceived them although they will recall that they noticed many years prior that "aspies" family appeared "cold' and "distant." The aspie's "deception" helps build a case for the angry non-aspie partner to abandon aspie for a new partner.

Aspie is then reluctant to begin a new relationship for fear that they will "deceive" (and therefore hurt) a new partner. There was never an attempt on the part of Aspie to deceive anyone but Aspie is unwilling to have every word and action psychoanalyzed or criticized in further relationships. How can the Aspie avoid being labeled "deceptive?"



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08 Oct 2010, 5:23 am

FemmeFatale wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:

[No, traditionally I've been a complete coward and always assumed that if a lady frowns at me, she probably just doesn't like me. Even when they have obviously liked me, I've never been able to believe they want more than casual friendship with me.


Do you believe that to be an aspie trait or do you believe this attitude comes from poor self-esteem? I sometimes feel the same way when I am approached, but then I get confused, because I realize I don't know what they want. My current partner was surprised that I didn't know he loved me (until he told me!) I try to pay extra attention now to everything he says (and my attention span is poor unless I hyperfocus) so I don't miss anything important.

I don't know for sure......I have both autism and some kind of poor self-esteem. Originally I was completely blind to all the between-the-lines hints, later I began to notice things and I'd often get a feeling that some or other lady was interested.....but then the logical brain would always question that and tell me that I had no real evidence. One of the problems was that I probably believed too strongly in the possibility of platonic friendship between people who in simple biological terms were potential mates. These days I think 100% platonic is very rare - even when there's no actual sex, there's nearly always an awareness. But I still tend to feel as if platonic is all there is out there, even though that doesn't explain the number of relationships I've had - like they were all aberrations never to be repeated. That's got to be down to poor self-esteem.



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08 Oct 2010, 6:39 am

FemmeFatale wrote:
A new thought on deception - or is it perceived deception - in relationships where one or both partners have aspie traits. The aspie is likely not pretending or presenting a false persona to their partner early in the relationship - no matter what the unhappy partners of aspies might think.

Aspie begins relationship (or marriage) with partner. The aspie may be unaware of their traits or behaviors but does not attempt to deceive their partner about their personality. The non-aspie partner can clearly see that their partner is a little "different." This may be fine for a while but then the non-aspie partner tires of their partner's behavior and attempts to justify to all of their friends and family that "aspie" deceived them although they will recall that they noticed many years prior that "aspies" family appeared "cold' and "distant." The aspie's "deception" helps build a case for the angry non-aspie partner to abandon aspie for a new partner.

Aspie is then reluctant to begin a new relationship for fear that they will "deceive" (and therefore hurt) a new partner. There was never an attempt on the part of Aspie to deceive anyone but Aspie is unwilling to have every word and action psychoanalyzed or criticized in further relationships. How can the Aspie avoid being labeled "deceptive?"

Yes that's really difficult. I haven't started a relationship since I discovered my autism a year or so ago, so I can't have been guilty of deliberately hiding the fact. Even so, looking back, it seems clear that my behaviour always became more Aspie once the relationship was past the "honeymoon stage." During early courtship I'd just feel very strong and positive - probably because at last I was getting good evidence that somebody actually wanted me, and that would have energised me greatly. And in that state I found myself capable of amazing things. Then, once the initial frenzy had abated, I lost those powers. It would have looked for all the world as if I'd consciously done a scam, to make the lady think I was a better catch than I was, but at the time I really believed I'd permanently risen above my usual "introverted" nature. I rather suspect that acquiring a partner causes hormonal changes that almost cure AS, if only because of the extra energy they seem to give me.

I think it's true of most people, that they make a special effort when making new friends and partners, then they "relax" when they feel more sure of them. The whole mainstream mating game seems to be shot through with deception from the start, as nobody wants to blow it by being too candid about their downside....much as an advertiser will talk up their product with no thought for the long term when people will find out they've been duped. A male pigeon will fan out his tail feathers so the female will "think" that he's bigger than he really is, and if there ever was such a thing as an honest male pigeon who saw the likely long term issues and refused to cheat, then that pigeon would be extinct. Yet a pigeon lacks the cognitive skills to even know what cheating is, he's just doing what his dad does. Similarly, mainstream humans spruce themselves up for a night "on the pull" and nobody seems to worry about it but me.

Once you know about your autism, you have the option to reveal that to any potential mate. Like I say, I've never been in that position so I don't know what I'd do. I like to think I'd be honest, and I don't feel my condition would usually be a deal-breaker - after all, the other person is likely to judge me mainly on the behaviour she's seen from me, and like I said there's not usually much of a problem at first. I'd like to think I'd follow through with a warning about how my behaviour could slip once we'd been involved for a while, and how I'd be willing to do everything I could to make sure that wouldn't happen....I might explain how it's gone that way before and what behaviour seems to have led me to "relaxing."

One strong theory of mine is that a new couple will, for a time, pretty much seal themselves off from the rest of humanity, as if they had a membrane around themselves as a couple, and then they dissolve that membrane and reduce the intensity of their friendship.......I think the way that membrane is dissolved can make or break the whole relationship - if it's done gradually and mutually, things should remain good. If one partner just rips the membrane up unilaterally, or if they try to keep the membrane in place for too long, things will go wrong. Mostly my relationship failures can be explained in these terms.

But I've also noticed that I have the most difficulty with eye contact with the people who are closest to me - my wife and my son. If it were just my wife, I'd think it could be because of the breakdown of trust and the disappointment from finding out that she's not as caring as she seeemed when we first met, but I've never felt that way about my son.