Cyber spying/stalking, am I obsessed and a creep

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Meow101
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29 Dec 2010, 1:48 pm

HopeGrows wrote:
He's already communicated - over the past 5 months - that he's not going to give her a reason for the break-up. Perhaps he doesn't want to tell her, perhaps he can't. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that he's clearly indicated he's not comfortable with the idea of providing the information she wants. Her repeated requests for this information is a clear indication that she considers her "need to know" more important than his need not to discuss it further: she's putting her own needs ahead of his.


He should have discussed it in the first place. That's my opinion. There'd be no need for me to ask if he'd discussed it appropriately 5 months ago.

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No, it's not unreasonable to "wish" for an explanation. It's one of the most reasonable, understandable desires there is. The situation becomes unreasonable when a person doggedly pursues that explanation over a period of months. It's not reasonable to repeatedly attempt to force someone to answer a question they clearly don't want to answer. It doesn't matter if answering the question would have been nice or kind or reasonable or ethical or moral or all of the above.

IMO, the lesson for the OP (and Kate), is to learn to accept that relationships aren't logical, reasonable, or controllable. There will always be risk and uncertainty and unanswered questions. The only solution is to learn to cope with that uncertainty, learn the lessons that can be learned, and let the rest go. If you can't let it go, they'll let you go - guaranteed.

As far as my name goes, I'm all about hope - just not delusion.


The way you think things should go puts *all* the control in the hands of *one* person and *none* in the hands of the other. How ethical, just, fair, or right is that? These questions need to be asked because of this prevailing attitude that abandoning a relationship without explanation is okay to do and if someone says "hey wait a minute you owe me an explanation" people start jumping in and saying "s/he owes you NOTHING". Why SHOULD one person be granted ALL the control and the other NONE, such that s/he just has to lie down and take it?

~Kate


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Sallamandrina
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29 Dec 2010, 2:13 pm

Meow101 wrote:
The way you think things should go puts *all* the control in the hands of *one* person and *none* in the hands of the other. How ethical, just, fair, or right is that? These questions need to be asked because of this prevailing attitude that abandoning a relationship without explanation is okay to do and if someone says "hey wait a minute you owe me an explanation" people start jumping in and saying "s/he owes you NOTHING". Why SHOULD one person be granted ALL the control and the other NONE, such that s/he just has to lie down and take it?


I disagree with that - people's opinions and words cannot give or take control from you - only you can do that. It doesn't matter what others think, even if they are a majority. You do what you have to do because you're the one who will live with the consequences. Some merely tried to warn you what the consequences might be if you persist. I agree that it's unfair to dump someone like that, but human nature being what it is, trying to "force" someone to do the right thing will only make then hostile. You should also take into consideration that ethical values are not universal and not everybody acknowledges them the same way you do.


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Meow101
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29 Dec 2010, 2:40 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
I disagree with that - people's opinions and words cannot give or take control from you - only you can do that. It doesn't matter what others think, even if they are a majority.


When the one who is abandoned and has a need to make some sense out of what happened is expected by society to "just take it" and "just move on" with no explanation, you bet there is a loss of control there. We are effectively being told that there's nothing we can do about it, just suck it up buttercup, s/he doesn't owe you anything, while the abandonER is being told by the masses that what they're doing is peachy-keen, no prob there, just hop on the bus, Gus, make a new plan, Stan, etc etc etc. What do you think that does to them? Of course it emboldens them to keep doing it. Changes can only happen by discussion and awareness that hey, maybe this isn't such a good way to do things. It hurts people. It DOES matter when people are so vocal about supporting unequivocally the abandoner and labeling the one seeking the explanation as "having the problem" even if they're not doing anything illegal or unethical in their quest for answers.

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You do what you have to do because you're the one who will live with the consequences. Some merely tried to warn you what the consequences might be if you persist. I agree that it's unfair to dump someone like that, but human nature being what it is, trying to "force" someone to do the right thing will only make then hostile. You should also take into consideration that ethical values are not universal and not everybody acknowledges them the same way you do.


No, they don't. Serial killers don't acknowledge that murder is wrong either (yeah, extreme example, hyperbole to make a point, not a comparison). Again, if one does not act outside of the law or in a way that is unethical and extremely obtrusive, if someone gets hostile that is their "issues" at work. Occasional requests for information are in no way comparable to constant hassles and not being left alone.

~Kate


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Meow101
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29 Dec 2010, 3:26 pm

nemorosa wrote:
Well surely the name didn't just fall out of the sky. I would assume that it was chosen as being indicative of a character trait. I didn't mean to be nasty, nor was I implying that she should give hope to the OP as that is clearly a lost cause. I was referring to hope in the aspirational sense. Some have been dismissive of the very thought that someone could ever offer an explanation. I'm not surprised that it doesn't happen very often and I'm well aware of what a cruel and unfair world it is, but I hope for more.


So do I, and the way I put that hope into action is by discussion of what that better world might look like. Hanging on to the cruelty as if it is an ideal is not the way to effect change to a kinder world. Funny, and ironic, that both people who did this to me said one of the things they liked best about me was my kind heart. Maybe I should take that as a red flag... :cry:

~Kate


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TheWeirdPig
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29 Dec 2010, 5:03 pm

Where do I begin . . .

The majority of posters seem to be saying that the dumper has unilateral freedom to dump at anytime for any reason. And although and explanation would be nice, there really is no obligation to give one.

I think in part Kate and I, and maybe some of the rest of you, are saying that if a person is mature enough to start a relationship, then they should be mature enough to end the relationship ethically giving the other person as much dignity as possible. This means being truthful even if the truth is painful. It means admitting to mistakes. It means addressing obligations and promises, keeping any that can be kept (returning personal belongings, etc.) or apologizing for not being able to keep the ones that can't. If you agree to keep in touch, agree if that means daily emails, once a year Christmas cards, or anything in between. Be clear about boundaries. Once again, I say this is the mature thing to do.

Now the question may be asked, "What if the dumper is mature enough to do all that and the dumpee continues hounding?" It really is a good question. My hope is that once again if the person is mature enough start a relationship, then they should be mature enough to accept the dumper's ethical exit. This, of course, is when the dumper is truthful, sincerely apologetic, and trustworthy.

The problem is that it's hard to find two people in a relationship both with that kind of maturity. My suggestion: we as a society should look at what we can do to encourage people to be a bit more mature when entering relationships. There is too much pressure to "couple-up" and not enough to "grow-up".

Next, I want to give two examples:

For a while, I was hanging out with this girl. I could never really read how much she was into me, but I do know she enjoyed my company. Of course, I developed feelings for her. When I told her, the response was not what I was hoping for, rather blunt, but very honest. She told me that she liked the very athletic, tall, muscular, and extroverted kind of guys. Although I am athletic, I play with more heart than talent. She told me that she thought of me as a friend and wanted to remain that way. after she said that, our friendship did wain, I still hurt, but I was able to respect it. Yes, it was a bit superficial, but at least I knew the reason. We have kept in touch (she found me on Facebook), even though she now lives abroad.

Later, I was a member of a group where I found myself sharing rides with another member. She was single at first, but then I heard rumor that she had met someone. I asked her out, but she rejected me stating that she was just starting another relationship. I persisted, but she finally told me that she needed someone who was more stable (I only had a part-time job at the time). I realized that was her main deal-breaker, and I accepted it. I asked if we were friends. She replied with, "Of course we are, but in a casual sense and as members of the group." Although I wished she had given me more of a chance, I realized she wasn't all that open minded and felt it was her loss. I avoided the group and it kinda fell apart over the next year. I've seen her a few times, but not with anything more than a hello.

In both of these cases, I got an idea of what happened and they were honest.

I'm still trying to figure out what makes the girl I originally posted about so different, and why I don't just let go like I did with these others. It can be debated about their reasons being mature, but their honesty definitely was mature. This current girl is just so inconsistent. If nothing else, I want her to be honest with herself. I want to see her be able to confidently take responsibility. I want to see her grow up a bit, to blossom.

Meow101, I think you are owed some answers. Our world seems to allow running away way too easily. In both of our cases, this running is not about freedom; it's about fear.

And when one runs from fear, is that really freedom at all?



Kilroy
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29 Dec 2010, 5:08 pm

we can't force people to be mature, and yes, as people with free will we should be allowed to break up with someone if we want
some people, for whatever reason, don't want to go into all the reasons
and you can't just force someone to think the way you do because you think its right
humans have been doing that for a long, long time



Sallamandrina
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29 Dec 2010, 5:11 pm

Meow101 wrote:
When the one who is abandoned and has a need to make some sense out of what happened is expected by society to "just take it" and "just move on" with no explanation, you bet there is a loss of control there. We are effectively being told that there's nothing we can do about it, just suck it up buttercup, s/he doesn't owe you anything, while the abandonER is being told by the masses that what they're doing is peachy-keen, no prob there, just hop on the bus, Gus, make a new plan, Stan, etc etc etc. What do you think that does to them? Of course it emboldens them to keep doing it. Changes can only happen by discussion and awareness that hey, maybe this isn't such a good way to do things. It hurts people. It DOES matter when people are so vocal about supporting unequivocally the abandoner and labeling the one seeking the explanation as "having the problem" even if they're not doing anything illegal or unethical in their quest for answers.


That is probably where the miscommunication happens, it might be the infamous lack of Theory of Mind at work. Since I never looked at society or the masses for validation and I ignore by default what the majority thinks or does, I probably don't understand what kind of pressure such things have on others. Since it's something so irrelevant and alien for me, it's really hard to understand how it works - but thanks for pointing it out, I'll try to take it into consideration in the future.

I'd just like to add that at no point in this thread was I "supporting the abandoner", nor did I accused you of hassling or harassing anyone.


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TheWeirdPig
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29 Dec 2010, 5:16 pm

There are a lot of people with free wills who are very lonely.



Kilroy
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29 Dec 2010, 5:17 pm

okay, not my fault
all threw time there has been single and or lonely people
you can't change that, every species on this earth experiences that



Sallamandrina
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29 Dec 2010, 5:19 pm

Kilroy wrote:
we can't force people to be mature, and yes, as people with free will we should be allowed to break up with someone if we want
some people, for whatever reason, don't want to go into all the reasons
and you can't just force someone to think the way you do because you think its right
humans have been doing that for a long, long time


That's a very realistic and mature attitude.


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29 Dec 2010, 5:24 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
Meow101 wrote:
When the one who is abandoned and has a need to make some sense out of what happened is expected by society to "just take it" and "just move on" with no explanation, you bet there is a loss of control there. We are effectively being told that there's nothing we can do about it, just suck it up buttercup, s/he doesn't owe you anything, while the abandonER is being told by the masses that what they're doing is peachy-keen, no prob there, just hop on the bus, Gus, make a new plan, Stan, etc etc etc. What do you think that does to them? Of course it emboldens them to keep doing it. Changes can only happen by discussion and awareness that hey, maybe this isn't such a good way to do things. It hurts people. It DOES matter when people are so vocal about supporting unequivocally the abandoner and labeling the one seeking the explanation as "having the problem" even if they're not doing anything illegal or unethical in their quest for answers.


That is probably where the miscommunication happens, it might be the infamous lack of Theory of Mind at work. Since I never looked at society or the masses for validation and I ignore by default what the majority thinks or does, I probably don't understand what kind of pressure such things have on others. Since it's something so irrelevant and alien for me, it's really hard to understand how it works - but thanks for pointing it out, I'll try to take it into consideration in the future.

I'd just like to add that at no point in this thread was I "supporting the abandoner", nor did I accused you of hassling or harassing anyone.


"Miscommunication". Or misunderstanding. How easily it happens. Just read Shakespeare.



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29 Dec 2010, 5:29 pm

Kate, he should have given you an explanation and you were well in your rights to ask for an explanation, but unfortunately your ex-partner is unwilling to tell you why he broke up with you and you just need to accept that. it really is his problem and not yours, so just accept he didn't want to be with you and move on to new endeavours.

A break up is not an issue of right, wrong, just, ethical, moral, etc., it is a matter of personal free will and although there is a right and wrong way to break up you cannot force a person to do it in a mature way, and if they break up with someone in an immature way you just need ot look at it as their problem and move on. That is all you can do. You have the power to move on yourself and the person doing the break up cannot hold you back; only you can hold yourself back by refusing to move on and only you can move on yourself, on one can do that for you.



Last edited by Mojave on 29 Dec 2010, 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sallamandrina
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29 Dec 2010, 5:34 pm

TheWeirdPig wrote:
"Miscommunication". Or misunderstanding. How easily it happens. Just read Shakespeare.


Camus has a play called "The Misunderstanding" that shows very well what disasters can stem from it. I often have the same feeling here - that communication without projection and hostility is impossible, too many think you're taking sides or have something against them.

I only tried to offer my view, TheWeirdPig, because I'm afraid that you'll suffer a lot more if you can't move on, but in the end it's none of my business.


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29 Dec 2010, 5:42 pm

I'm sorry. I do want to be mature here. There are may different points of view here and common ground seems so far away. It would hardly be mature on my part to be personally attacking anyone. I am starting to feel myself going that way, and I am sorry.

Maybe it would help if everyone understood one of my core values, and something I've come to believe. It is a concept that was very foreign to me when I was younger, and it might be a lot for me to expect people to adopt the same idea without looking deeply within themselves. I will put the concept into terms that fit with what's being said here.

"You have to give up some freedom in order to truly be responsible."



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29 Dec 2010, 6:09 pm

Mojave wrote:
Kate, he should have given you an explanation and you were well in your rights to ask for an explanation, but unfortunately your ex-partner is unwilling to tell you why he broke up with you and you just need to accept that. it really is his problem and not yours, so just accept he didn't want to be with you and move on to new endeavours.

A break up is not an issue of right, wrong, just, ethical, moral, etc., it is a matter of personal free will and although there is a right and wrong way to break up you cannot force a person to do it in a mature way, and if they break up with someone in an immature way you just need ot look at it as their problem and move on. That is all you can do. You have the power to move on yourself and the person doing the break up cannot hold you back; only you can hold yourself back by refusing to move on and only you can move on yourself, on one can do that for you.


Sorry, I believe how we treat each other is the very essence of right and wrong, so I believe it is an issue of right and wrong. We can use our free will to help one another, to hurt one another, or to do neutral actions. I believe this is a hurtful, destructive action.

I really wish I could just get angry and think he's an ass and move on. That would be so much easier on me. People keep asking me why I don't just get mad because what he did was just so wrong, and it's because I don't know all the reasons. As long as I don't know, I can't draw conclusions. As long as I can't draw conclusions, I think to myself it is unfair to "call it his problem" and be done with it. Then I start wondering what *I* did. I also don't think running from fear is about freedom at all. It's about indulging one's own desire not to be uncomfortable at the HUGE expense of someone else.

~Kate


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Kilroy
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29 Dec 2010, 6:11 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
Kilroy wrote:
we can't force people to be mature, and yes, as people with free will we should be allowed to break up with someone if we want
some people, for whatever reason, don't want to go into all the reasons
and you can't just force someone to think the way you do because you think its right
humans have been doing that for a long, long time


That's a very realistic and mature attitude.


well thank you
some here feel we should just force people to be mature and such, but often times people don't realize they are immature
or people's opinions are clouded by personal experience
would it be nice if everyone gave exact reasons why they're breaking up if they broke up-sure
but its not like that, it will never be like that because people act and think differently
and see situations in different light
they don't always synch up with how the other person thinks and feels