Is it easier for aspie women than aspie men?

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emlion
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05 Jan 2011, 1:18 pm

Erisad wrote:
emlion wrote:
I can't believe you're still all arguing this. :roll:
No-one can experience both sides of it. So you can't get an accurate representation.
It's amusing how everyone is trying to be the more hard-done-by side.


Lol, I know right? I picture this scenario in my head when I read through these types of threads. XD

"My love life sucks more than yours!"
"Hey, you're right. Yours is much worse than mine. Do you feel better about it now?"
"...no."

Why try to win this argument? There's no reward for it. :roll:


People just want a reason other than themselves for why dating is often hard. :roll:



Bethie
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05 Jan 2011, 1:22 pm

billsmithglendale wrote:
[quote="So counterpoint -- if fat women can still land guys that are better-looking than them, while several men here have complained about being in perfect shape, great job, yet all they can get is what they perceive to be the bottom third of women (fat, ugly, homely, otherwise unattractive), is that not a sign of asymmetry?


The one-third I referenced was those who are NOT either overweight or obese according to the CDC.

I've seen lots of fat guys with conventionally-attractive women.
Not that it matters-
my point was that when someone rejects two-thirds of the dating pool wholesale,
and then complains about not being able to find a mate,
they're going to elicit a few eyerolls.


As for the rest,
I have no idea what your personal perceptions of men's dating success versus women's on a forum have to do with anything.
I could essentially say "I notice the opposite", and be done with it.


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Last edited by Bethie on 05 Jan 2011, 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sallamandrina
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05 Jan 2011, 1:24 pm

This pissing contest is getting so old and vicious - what is the purpose? What kind of joy do you get from constantly keeping score and resenting everybody else's situation, even when you don't know or understand anything about it?

Fine, you convinced me - nobody has it so hard as an AS man who can't have sex, it is the biggest tragedy one can imagine - forget about starting children, terminal disease, homeless people, natural disasters, dictatorship and torture, people living their lives in terror and poverty. You are the most unfortunate, unlucky and mistreated people on earth.

People keep making these threads despite - wait, because - nothing positive comes out of them, while creating huge amounts of upset and distress to all involved. What they do is make it extremely clear why some people can't get either lovers or friends - nobody could breathe in such a dense atmosphere of self entitlement, hate and selfishness.

Enjoy, I need a breath of fresh air and something beautiful to look at to forget the ugliness and pettiness in here.


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05 Jan 2011, 1:31 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
Fine, you convinced me - nobody has it so hard as an AS man who can't have sex, it is the biggest tragedy one can imagine - forget about starting children, terminal disease, homeless people, natural disasters, dictatorship and torture, people living their lives in terror and poverty. You are the most unfortunate, unlucky and mistreated people on earth.



I've been told on this forum that a man being unable to find a willing sex partner is analogous to a woman being gang-raped.

We're obviously not dealing with sane people, or at least not rational ones.


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Kilroy
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05 Jan 2011, 1:41 pm

there's a lot of really stupid people who frequent the internet, this place is not exempt



billsmithglendale
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05 Jan 2011, 1:45 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
This pissing contest is getting so old and vicious - what is the purpose? What kind of joy do you get from constantly keeping score and resenting everybody else's situation, even when you don't know or understand anything about it?

Fine, you convinced me - nobody has it so hard as an AS man who can't have sex, it is the biggest tragedy one can imagine - forget about starting children, terminal disease, homeless people, natural disasters, dictatorship and torture, people living their lives in terror and poverty. You are the most unfortunate, unlucky and mistreated people on earth.

People keep making these threads despite - wait, because - nothing positive comes out of them, while creating huge amounts of upset and distress to all involved. What they do is make it extremely clear why some people can't get either lovers or friends - nobody could breathe in such a dense atmosphere of self entitlement, hate and selfishness.

Enjoy, I need a breath of fresh air and something beautiful to look at to forget the ugliness and pettiness in here.


Including your own post, I would imagine. But hey, this is all for fun and idle discussion (disturbing that so many of us seem to have the free time to talk about this stuff during the day). If you're not having fun, take a break!



Kilroy
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05 Jan 2011, 1:46 pm

nothing here is fun



emlion
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05 Jan 2011, 1:49 pm

If you think this discussion is 'fun' I think you've mis-interpretted the term.



Sallamandrina
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05 Jan 2011, 1:51 pm

billsmithglendale wrote:
Including your own post, I would imagine. But hey, this is all for fun and idle discussion (disturbing that so many of us seem to have the free time to talk about this stuff during the day). If you're not having fun, take a break!


Feel free to include my post if you want, I don't care any more. Just like I should stop caring about people concerned only with their petty issues while disregarding and apparently enjoying the distress and hurt they cause to others.

Are you really having fun? You couldn't have proved my point better.

Hi Kilroy can I use you as eye candy to cheer me up? :P


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emlion
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05 Jan 2011, 1:54 pm

Quote:
Hi Kilroy can I use you as eye candy to cheer me up?


I giggled. He is damn cute though. 8)



Sallamandrina
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05 Jan 2011, 1:58 pm

emlion wrote:
Quote:
Hi Kilroy can I use you as eye candy to cheer me up?


I giggled. He is damn cute though. 8)


He is :). You also make for great eye candy em!


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05 Jan 2011, 2:38 pm

billsmithglendale wrote:
Chronos wrote:
billsmithglendale wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
ow wow, it's easier for a woman to get sex! What a WONDERFUL life we must lead then! Wow! Because sex is the most important thing in the world (if you're pathetic)


...or just a living thing with a sex drive. Is it not the goal of most animals (and plants) to reproduce? Does this act not stimulate extreme emotions of pleasure in certain animals, like humans? Is there a reason why a human (a normal one with a normal sex drive for their gender) wouldn't want to experience those same emotions and feelings, especially with another person? (as opposed to "self service")

The fact is, there are a whole bunch of folks on L&D, mostly men, who have never gotten to experience that act and don't want to pay for it (for a myriad of reasons) The fact that if you did pay for it, it would be expensive, and that it also is so highly sought after (by one gender in particular) that people will sacrifice many things important to them shows that it isn't just pathetic people who crave sex.

We're animals -- we're wired to want sex, and more, at certain ages. Not getting sex is a pretty damn important issue to a lot of us, especially those who want to reproduce like everything else on this planet does. The person who asked the question, I presume, is male, so I answered in in a male-relevant way.

But, I did reread the original question, and the OP said "relation". Not sure if he meant "get into a relationship" or "have sexual relations." If it's the former, I would still say it is easier for women -- just keep them coming back for more and talk in the spaces in between -- you'll find that's a quick way to have a guy around you ALL THE TIME. If you want a QUALITY relationship, well, different matter, and in that case I would give it closer to even odds, though it is still easier for a woman to get "leads" vs. a guy, all things held equal.

And if it's the latter, I definitely stick with my original argument.


In terms of relationships.
Most men here will settle for just sex. You can pay for that.
Most women here want some deep, romantic connection. That, you can't buy.

Thus, you can get sex easier than a woman with AS can get her prince charming, so tell me again how women have it easier?


I have to admit that I like your logic and counterargument better than a lot of the other replies to my statement above.

Per my statement, it really comes down to what is important, and what we're talking about,

So -- if we're talking about sex with another human being as being what is important to that individual, male or female -- even with your "you can pay" argument, women still have it easier, hands down. Some significant portion of men literally (they've done studies) will have sex with a woman they've known for 5 minutes -- the minimum time for women in the same scenario is about one day to a week in most cases (we'll lump the one night stands under the "one day" category, since presumably you've chatted eachother up before you went home, investing some time in eachother). I don't think we really need to argue about who wants sex more, men or women - it's pretty obvious. So men want something more than women want, and at an earlier age -- women have the advantage here.

Romantic love -- yes, this is hard for everyone, and if all things were equal, it would be equally difficult. However -- women have a lot more men coming at them than men have women coming at them, so in terms of finding that person, women get a lot more opportunity to vet candidates.


This is not particularly true. If we assume most men just want someone to have sex with, and most women want a deep romantic relationship with someone they are mutually compatible with, and sex is not so casual for them, then most women, even attractive ones, are rarely approached by men who are suitable candidates for their purpose.

Women in general, are actually rarely approached outside of bars and night clubs (where most of the men want one night stands and are not suitable candidates).

Women are rarely approached outside of these places.

Here is an analogy. Imagine if women were supposed to approach men instead but all of the two or three women who approached you in 10 years were obese, had bad body odor, missing teeth, greasy hair, a bad complexion and didn't want to have sex with you at all, but wanted you to marry them, support them, cuddle them and romance them.

Women with AS get approached even less. In fact, women with AS tend to be ignored more than men with AS in general, which is one reason why less women are diagnosed. In the very rare situation that a women with AS does get approached, it's usually by someone who is not only NOT a candidate for what she wants, but someone who is potentially dangerous. When I was 17 I was approached by a man old enough to be my father who wanted me to get into his car. A while back, I had a man approach me unsolicited and and start talking to me, and then started saying sexually explicit things and follow me into what he thought was an alley after I told him to go away and leave me alone. Only when he realized it was an opening to a populated courtyard did he back off.

Did he serve as a viable candidate for a potential romance for me? No, he served as a viable candidate for a potential rapist.

The perceptions that many of the men here have that women just have to sit out in the open and look pretty, and she will be approached left and right, or even at all, by a man who fulfills her priorities is just plain wrong.



billsmithglendale
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05 Jan 2011, 3:14 pm

Chronos wrote:
billsmithglendale wrote:
Chronos wrote:
billsmithglendale wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
ow wow, it's easier for a woman to get sex! What a WONDERFUL life we must lead then! Wow! Because sex is the most important thing in the world (if you're pathetic)


...or just a living thing with a sex drive. Is it not the goal of most animals (and plants) to reproduce? Does this act not stimulate extreme emotions of pleasure in certain animals, like humans? Is there a reason why a human (a normal one with a normal sex drive for their gender) wouldn't want to experience those same emotions and feelings, especially with another person? (as opposed to "self service")

The fact is, there are a whole bunch of folks on L&D, mostly men, who have never gotten to experience that act and don't want to pay for it (for a myriad of reasons) The fact that if you did pay for it, it would be expensive, and that it also is so highly sought after (by one gender in particular) that people will sacrifice many things important to them shows that it isn't just pathetic people who crave sex.

We're animals -- we're wired to want sex, and more, at certain ages. Not getting sex is a pretty damn important issue to a lot of us, especially those who want to reproduce like everything else on this planet does. The person who asked the question, I presume, is male, so I answered in in a male-relevant way.

But, I did reread the original question, and the OP said "relation". Not sure if he meant "get into a relationship" or "have sexual relations." If it's the former, I would still say it is easier for women -- just keep them coming back for more and talk in the spaces in between -- you'll find that's a quick way to have a guy around you ALL THE TIME. If you want a QUALITY relationship, well, different matter, and in that case I would give it closer to even odds, though it is still easier for a woman to get "leads" vs. a guy, all things held equal.

And if it's the latter, I definitely stick with my original argument.


In terms of relationships.
Most men here will settle for just sex. You can pay for that.
Most women here want some deep, romantic connection. That, you can't buy.

Thus, you can get sex easier than a woman with AS can get her prince charming, so tell me again how women have it easier?


I have to admit that I like your logic and counterargument better than a lot of the other replies to my statement above.

Per my statement, it really comes down to what is important, and what we're talking about,

So -- if we're talking about sex with another human being as being what is important to that individual, male or female -- even with your "you can pay" argument, women still have it easier, hands down. Some significant portion of men literally (they've done studies) will have sex with a woman they've known for 5 minutes -- the minimum time for women in the same scenario is about one day to a week in most cases (we'll lump the one night stands under the "one day" category, since presumably you've chatted eachother up before you went home, investing some time in eachother). I don't think we really need to argue about who wants sex more, men or women - it's pretty obvious. So men want something more than women want, and at an earlier age -- women have the advantage here.

Romantic love -- yes, this is hard for everyone, and if all things were equal, it would be equally difficult. However -- women have a lot more men coming at them than men have women coming at them, so in terms of finding that person, women get a lot more opportunity to vet candidates.


This is not particularly true. If we assume most men just want someone to have sex with, and most women want a deep romantic relationship with someone they are mutually compatible with, and sex is not so casual for them, then most women, even attractive ones, are rarely approached by men who are suitable candidates for their purpose.

Women in general, are actually rarely approached outside of bars and night clubs (where most of the men want one night stands and are not suitable candidates).

Women are rarely approached outside of these places.

Here is an analogy. Imagine if women were supposed to approach men instead but all of the two or three women who approached you in 10 years were obese, had bad body odor, missing teeth, greasy hair, a bad complexion and didn't want to have sex with you at all, but wanted you to marry them, support them, cuddle them and romance them.

Women with AS get approached even less. In fact, women with AS tend to be ignored more than men with AS in general, which is one reason why less women are diagnosed. In the very rare situation that a women with AS does get approached, it's usually by someone who is not only NOT a candidate for what she wants, but someone who is potentially dangerous. When I was 17 I was approached by a man old enough to be my father who wanted me to get into his car. A while back, I had a man approach me unsolicited and and start talking to me, and then started saying sexually explicit things and follow me into what he thought was an alley after I told him to go away and leave me alone. Only when he realized it was an opening to a populated courtyard did he back off.

Did he serve as a viable candidate for a potential romance for me? No, he served as a viable candidate for a potential rapist.

The perceptions that many of the men here have that women just have to sit out in the open and look pretty, and she will be approached left and right, or even at all, by a man who fulfills her priorities is just plain wrong.


First off -- I can't tell you how happy it makes me that you actually use logic and argument to refute my points, rather than name-calling, insults, and taking your ball and going home when cornered in an argument. This is what keeps me on this forum, people who value discussion and can keep it civil. Thank you (and please don't make me regret saying this ;) )

To your points above --

--The quality of candidates for a particular purpose matter, but getting any leads at all is 100% better than getting nothing. We have people here, mostly men, who are getting no leads at all, and for whom (thinking of Grisha here) even leads that are hand-fed are turning out to be absolute disasters. And I have to tell you, as a man, I've gotten very few "I want to have sex with you and nothing else" leads from women, and I'm not a bad-looking guy. If that's my experience, what must it be for others? Most of the leads either gender gets realistically are going to try to adhere to social norms -- men will try to get sex earlier, and commit less, while women want more commitment with a person who has a real future -- the reality of the two meets in the middle. Both sexes have to discard leads that don't meet their needs -- my presumption is that women throw out more leads, because they get more leads.

--Women only or mostly only getting approached at bars and clubs -- I don't buy that for a second. I don't deny that a whole bunch of "approaching" goes on at those forums, but they by far are not the only places people meet each other and possibly approach each other. To be clear -- Not one of the women I ever dated did I meet at a bar, and same goes for anyone I slept with. Places I have met women I have dated, and/or ones I wanted to date: work, school, shopping, and just random places (like the elevator) I would say, in fact, that the kind of people that Aspies are most compatible with, you are not going to meet in bars, clubs, etc. You will meet them at work, school, hobby clubs you have in common, etc.

--Getting approached by creeps -- yes, this goes with the territory of being in demand, it is a "cost of doing business." Most women put up with these kinds of "approaches" in their lives (I have stories from pretty much any woman I've ever known), and don't think for a minute that men don't get approached by these same creeps either (I've been hit on plenty of times by men, and some of them fell in that "you're way too old for me, and probably a degenerate creep" category). If you are in demand, you're not just going to get the cream -- you're going to get the whole spectrum, including creeps. And where is this demand coming from? Men. Who do they mostly want? Women (maybe 10% of men want other men, I'm giving the gay male population a big margin here). So yeah, you're getting these creep approaches, and probably more than men do, because... you're getting more approaches!

--Do women with AS really get approached less, or do they just perceive it that way because they are so clueless about the signs, just like male Aspies? I ask because we've already seen that even the ugliest, homeliest of women seem to get approached and find husbands, yet we have some very suitable, beautiful, and intelligent women like my sister and some of our female members here who swear they don't get approached. There is something here that clashes with reality, and I've seen more than enough posts here on L&D where Aspie women seem as in the dark about the signs as men. Technically, even if you didn't know it, if you got approached, you got approached. This is the one point where I am willing to concede that it may very well be just as difficult for Aspie women vs. men.



BackToThePile
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05 Jan 2011, 5:52 pm

My uncle has AS, lives alone, has no friends, and no one but his mother for him.
My brother is not in much better shape. He married the only person that ever loved him out of desperation and will never leave her, even if she is heavily medicated bi-polar and verbally assaults and abuses everyone. They have no friends and have made enemies of their entire family on both sides.
My parents are divorced.
My aunt is divorced.
The only glimmer of happiness is my sister, but I believe that may only last until the kids go to college.

There is no question in my mind whether or not both sexes suffer from poor relationships in equal amounts. They do.

But when it comes to dating, women...all women have it much much easier. That doesn't mean they are any more likely to find their match.

A woman has only to be presentable, act decent, and show interest.

The man must bear the full brunt of rejection time and time again from strangers who simply do not wish to even know them. Fifty strangers and 49 rejections to get one date. Then rejected after one date. Without being given a chance, rejected after one meeting. I cannot fathom shutting someone out so quickly, and have never dated someone once who showed interest that I would not want to date again.

Be presentable, act decent, and show interest. Then turn down 49 out of 50 without so many words between you as to make 3 haikus.

Do not down play the importance of sex. It, like friendship, is one of the greatest things in life. When a person is denied of sex it is devastating.



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05 Jan 2011, 6:10 pm

BackToThePile wrote:
A woman has only to be presentable, act decent, and show interest.


Pretty sure that's the only thing required of a man, too. :?

And actually, a woman is less likely to reject a man based on his appearance alone, so obviously men have it easier than women. Obviously.

Quote:
The man must bear the full brunt of rejection time and time again from strangers who simply do not wish to even know them. Fifty strangers and 49 rejections to get one date. Then rejected after one date. Without being given a chance, rejected after one meeting. I cannot fathom shutting someone out so quickly, and have never dated someone once who showed interest that I would not want to date again.


Haven't you heard? A man isn't rejected unless he's told flat-out by a woman that she isn't interested in him, but a woman is rejected every time a man takes one look at her and doesn't think she's good enough for him to bother remember seeing. Given how easily it is for any female who doesn't conform to certain "standards" of attractiveness to be dismissed as fat, ugly, homely, or otherwise unattractive, that's a lot of women who you've rejected.

Talk about shutting someone out so quickly.



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05 Jan 2011, 7:37 pm

menintights wrote:
Haven't you heard? A man isn't rejected unless he's told flat-out by a woman that she isn't interested in him, but a woman is rejected every time a man takes one look at her and doesn't think she's good enough for him to bother remember seeing. Given how easily it is for any female who doesn't conform to certain "standards" of attractiveness to be dismissed as fat, ugly, homely, or otherwise unattractive, that's a lot of women who you've rejected.

Talk about shutting someone out so quickly.


LOL! See, it's all your fault, BacktothePile ;) :P

Honestly, menintights, how is that different than the same selection process women do when they see a bald guy, a fat guy, etc.? People who chose other people visually are going to do the same kinds of things.