Take on why males have more trouble.. in general

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HopeGrows
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10 Jan 2011, 9:04 pm

Craig28 wrote:
So woman being more complicated then men would legitimately and correctly state that they are to blame for all relationship breakups and other dysfunctions. After all, men don't have monthly mood swings, women do.


Who stipulated to that? You're just itching for an argument tonight, huh @Craig28?


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Craig28
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10 Jan 2011, 9:06 pm

HopeGrows wrote:
Craig28 wrote:
So woman being more complicated then men would legitimately and correctly state that they are to blame for all relationship breakups and other dysfunctions. After all, men don't have monthly mood swings, women do.


Who stipulated to that? You're just itching for an argument tonight, huh @Craig28?


No arguments here, just discussion. But hey, I have no experience with women or relationships, plus no guidance from anybody, so what I can you expect from somebody like me? Hmm?



Kilroy
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10 Jan 2011, 9:07 pm

Craig28 wrote:
HopeGrows wrote:
Craig28 wrote:
So woman being more complicated then men would legitimately and correctly state that they are to blame for all relationship breakups and other dysfunctions. After all, men don't have monthly mood swings, women do.


Who stipulated to that? You're just itching for an argument tonight, huh @Craig28?


No arguments here, just discussion. But hey, I have no experience with women or relationships, plus no guidance from anybody, so what I can you expect from somebody like me? Hmm?


understanding and a simple idea of human feelings and interaction



Craig28
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11 Jan 2011, 4:44 am

Kilroy wrote:
Craig28 wrote:
HopeGrows wrote:
Craig28 wrote:
So woman being more complicated then men would legitimately and correctly state that they are to blame for all relationship breakups and other dysfunctions. After all, men don't have monthly mood swings, women do.


Who stipulated to that? You're just itching for an argument tonight, huh @Craig28?


No arguments here, just discussion. But hey, I have no experience with women or relationships, plus no guidance from anybody, so what I can you expect from somebody like me? Hmm?


understanding and a simple idea of human feelings and interaction


From an Aspie such as myself! :lol:



Craig28
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11 Jan 2011, 4:47 am

Kilroy wrote:
Don't be surprised when you get rejected by the opposite sex


Too late, I've been rejected. By a woman that made assumptions. :twisted:



TallyMan
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11 Jan 2011, 5:24 am

Craig28 wrote:
So woman being more complicated then men would legitimately and correctly state that they are to blame for all relationship breakups and other dysfunctions. After all, men don't have monthly mood swings, women do.


Craig28 will no longer be taking part in any WP discussions. He has had repeated warnings about making misogynist posts and this will no longer be allowed to continue. He has now been banned.


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billsmithglendale
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11 Jan 2011, 1:08 pm

HopeGrows wrote:
billsmithglendale wrote:
HopeGrows wrote:
billsmithglendale wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
It was a blatent, turn your head 90 degrees perve.
I think it's pretty rude to do it right in front of someone you're supposed to be dating. I don't think being a "man" is an excuse. Also and I don't recall saying that I broke up with said person because of it.


I see -- that changes things dramatically then, sorry, I misread. It is acceptable, even given my argument, to chew him out for that -- he should be more subtle.

It wouldn't be ok to dump him for that unless it was like the final straw or something -- thanks for the clarification.


Of course it would be okay to dump him for that, @billsmithglendale. They weren't married; they didn't have children; they were dating. Dating is supposed to be the process of learning about each other...to figure out if you're compatible enough to have a future together. Either party can opt out - and should opt out - of a dating relationship if they encounter a deal-breaker. This clearly wasn't @hale_bopp's deal-breaker, but it would have been okay if it were.


Sorry -- let me rephrase. It wouldn't be ok for a normal woman who wants to have a long-term relationship with a normal man with typical male characteristics to dump him for that.

She can do whatever she wants that is a legal act. If she wants to do things that are compatible with staying in a relationship with men who aren't gay (though they would be leering, just at men instead), low-libido, or possibly mentally incapacitated, she might need to put up with a leer or two.

So yeah -- if a man doing a masculine thing really bothers her enough to flush a relationship down the toilet, I think it's probably doing both of them a favor to break it off. Men certainly do need to optimize their time as well, and that kind of uncertainty is a lot to put up with -- one look and you're gone? Who needs that sword hanging over their head?

EDIT

Btw, this is a little bit of a touchy topic for me -- My very first GF was a bit of a flirt, and really liked to play head games with me, constantly trying to make it look like I was lucky to have her, and that all kinds of guys were interested. She would constantly go "Ooh, look at him..." or say other things to make me feel small, or to mess with my head. So imagine my surprise when I did the same thing to her, leering at two women at a pool we were at, to show her exactly what she was doing to me -- and this was just light teasing. She instead goes ballistic, and I, only a few weeks into my very first relationship, and with a really fragile self-esteem (she had already had multiple relationships and been around the block), found myself almost dumped (she took me back after a week of making me sh** bricks and wallow in depression and failure).

Many months later, when I got tired of her, and dumped her, what particular events do you think she kept going over in her mind about how she mistreated me? Bingo, crap like the above, where what is good for the goose apparently isn't allowed by the gander (who wanted to gander). It was a pretty crummy thing to pull on anyone, but I put up with it -- I shouldn't have. Anyone who dumps someone for something so small is clearly not mentally balanced enough for me -- other's mileage may vary though ;)


You know, you have a tendency to externalize your behavior, @billsmithglendale. I'm around men all day, pretty much every single day - and I don't see them leer at women. These are men who I'm completely comfortable with, who are comfortable with me - so no one's putting on a facade. It just doesn't happen. So you may choose to leer at women, but that's not because your "masculine" - it's just the way you choose to behave.

I also find it curious that you suffered so greatly at the hands of your ex (a woman who sounds like she had her own share of problems), because she blatantly paid attention to other men when she was with you....yet somehow you believe it's behavior that's okay for you to engage in. Don't you think your wife might feel insulted or denigrated when you leer at women? I just don't get it - you know it bothered you when your ex did it - it made you feel jealous and insecure and uncomfortable, etc., - but your wife had better learn to live with it when you do it, cause you're just a guy? I don't get it.


I would agree with a blanket assertion that I have many issues, including regarding my past relationships -- it's one reason why I'm here, to compare experiences, chime in with what I think is good advice (but you know what they say about free advice ;) ), and debate points I think are worth debating, but without (hopefully) getting misogynistic like some folks we've heard from. I also do like to hear feedback and other's advice from time to time.

My first GF/ex was certainly a piece of work. I know her still now, half our lives later, and she has definitely settled down and gotten past some of her issues, as have I. We both had big issues when we dated, revolving around self-esteem, power in the relationship (she had the power in this one, the only time I let someone do this), and our high libidos. I'm sure I did more than my share of insensitive or clueless behavior (thus my gravitation to WP, where I can try to see how much might be attributable to AS vs. some other diagnosable issue, e.g. Narcissism or BPD), but she certainly wielded some hefty relationship weapons, like relational aggression (i.e. the silent treatment for days at a time), and a tendency to not really treat me like a person sometimes. That being said, she made up for it in other ways, and looking back, I have a much rosier picture of her and our relationship than I did in the immediate aftermath.

Getting dumped or raked over the coals for leering still sucks, and I think is overkill. You are right that I externalize -- I think a lot of people do, because at the end of the day, I can't be in your head, or some other guy's head -- I just know me. I don't, however, think that I am such a unique or unusual human man that somehow my hormones and behavior are so much different than other human men, so am I externalizing, or making a reasonable assumption?

Case in point -- you say you don't see your male coworkers leer. I don't know why that is. Are you a particularly observational in your habits? (not everyone is) Is it possible you just don't notice? I ask because we guys are not all so stupidly obvious as in the example above (though I am guilty of that often enough). Often, I'll be in a group of guys, and we'll shamelessly leer. A female friend or coworker comes around, and if she's not in on our joke, we totally clean up our acts, but still surreptitiously observe women around us. I've also seen women do the same, but using their peripheral vision more (and not doing it in groups as much, because for women there is a harsher social standard for this behavior, I think unfairly).

With regards to my wife and my leering -- she's used to it, I'm high libido, and we married early. I look but don't touch, and she accepts it, just as much as she accepts any adult material I might keep for my own uses, etc. She's not terribly pleased about it, but there are worse things in life.



Sallamandrina
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11 Jan 2011, 1:30 pm

@billsmithglendale

As a non-native English speaker, I have to ask - "leering" as per definition seems to have a somewhat unpleasant connotation - do you actually mean looking/glancing at someone with sexual interest while trying to exercise some discretion (in the sense that even if others see you doing it, it won't come across as aggressive or brazen) or you know, those obvious, long, lascivious stares? Because in my view, this "leering" issues is completely different depending on how it's done.


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billsmithglendale
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11 Jan 2011, 2:41 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
@billsmithglendale

As a non-native English speaker, I have to ask - "leering" as per definition seems to have a somewhat unpleasant connotation - do you actually mean looking/glancing at someone with sexual interest while trying to exercise some discretion (in the sense that even if others see you doing it, it won't come across as aggressive or brazen) or you know, those obvious, long, lascivious stares? Because in my view, this "leering" issues is completely different depending on how it's done.


Hi Sallamandrina --

It is a good question -- it really can mean both. Sometimes a guy is incentivized to be more discreet, either because his GF/wife is near, or he doesn't want to offend his female friends or coworkers, etc. Maybe he just doesn't want to tip his hand.

Or, it can be really obvious -- think guys at a strip club. No hiding there, they are there for the show, and the eyes are active.

But yeah, in either way, a leer is different than a normal glance or look because there is at least a subconscious, if not conscious, sexual instinct at work. And it's not meant necessarily to be personal (at least IMHO), which is kind of the genesis of this particular argument, can guys help it or not, and is it as disrespectful if it is the former?

Also, I have seen women leer, even in groups. You tell me -- when women leer at a guy ("ooh, look at him"), is it sexual or deeper than that? Think a group of women clustering by the office window to look at the firemen below as an example of this.



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11 Jan 2011, 3:02 pm

billsmithglendale wrote:
when women leer at a guy ("ooh, look at him"), is it sexual or deeper than that? Think a group of women clustering by the office window to look at the firemen below as an example of this.


That's because their office is on fire! 8O :wink:


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Sallamandrina
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11 Jan 2011, 3:03 pm

^That's what I thought. I see no harm in trying to be discreet about it in order to spare people's feelings (that would include the girlfriend/wife and the woman one's looking at, as staring makes many women uncomfortable)

Honestly, I never had the problem either way - strange as it seems my sexual attraction triggers have pretty much nothing to do with looks so I never stare/leer at people. I'm not the jealous type and reading this thread I suspect my husband must have unusual self-control, because we never had this issue.

But reading Hale's post the whole thing looks indeed more like a power game (as Hope mentioned) and in such cases I suspect people will get upset more because they feel humiliated, not jealous.

TallyMan wrote:
billsmithglendale wrote:
when women leer at a guy ("ooh, look at him"), is it sexual or deeper than that? Think a group of women clustering by the office window to look at the firemen below as an example of this.


That's because their office is on fire! 8O :wink:


LOL I've never understood the firemen thingy - but I'm a bit weird about these things.


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billsmithglendale
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11 Jan 2011, 3:29 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
^That's what I thought. I see no harm in trying to be discreet about it in order to spare people's feelings (that would include the girlfriend/wife and the woman one's looking at, as staring makes many women uncomfortable)

Honestly, I never had the problem either way - strange as it seems my sexual attraction triggers have pretty much nothing to do with looks so I never stare/leer at people. I'm not the jealous type and reading this thread I suspect my husband must have unusual self-control, because we never had this issue.

But reading Hale's post the whole thing looks indeed more like a power game (as Hope mentioned) and in such cases I suspect people will get upset more because they feel humiliated, not jealous.


Yeah, I've heard similar things from other women (and men) about never leering or not noticing others visually as much -- my wife says pretty much the same thing, which can be frustrating on the times when I do want her to notice something in our environment, but can't point it out without attracting attention. Later on, I'll be like "did you see this?" and she won't know what I'm talking about. One time we were directly behind two transwomen who were fairly obvious (bad breast jobs, huge brows, manfaces) and she had no idea until I told her later.

It also made me wonder if maybe Hope fell into the above category as well -- just because you don't detect something doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

With regards to a power game, there are two different ones we mentioned -- one would be leering intentionally so that your partner can notice -- not a very nice thing to do. The other would be to put relationship pressure or put a relationship in jeopardy over what might be an innocuous look -- just because I stare at that woman's chest for a few seconds doesn't mean that I don't want to stay with whom I'm with. Maybe I'm gazing with amazement at the natural wonders in front of me -- I don't deserve a big relationship fight over that. Asking her out, or continuing to stare -- yes.



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11 Jan 2011, 3:59 pm

billsmithglendale wrote:
Yeah, I've heard similar things from other women (and men) about never leering or not noticing others visually as much -- my wife says pretty much the same thing, which can be frustrating on the times when I do want her to notice something in our environment, but can't point it out without attracting attention. Later on, I'll be like "did you see this?" and she won't know what I'm talking about. One time we were directly behind two transwomen who were fairly obvious (bad breast jobs, huge brows, manfaces) and she had no idea until I told her later.


That got me thinking and I realised I do notice - I doubt I'd miss something like huge breast/manly face. I also notice original styles in people's appearance or tacky ones. The difference seem to be I'm probably more focused on the aesthetic instead of the sexual aspect of looks.

billsmithglendale wrote:
With regards to a power game, there are two different ones we mentioned -- one would be leering intentionally so that your partner can notice -- not a very nice thing to do. The other would be to put relationship pressure or put a relationship in jeopardy over what might be an innocuous look -- just because I stare at that woman's chest for a few seconds doesn't mean that I don't want to stay with whom I'm with. Maybe I'm gazing with amazement at the natural wonders in front of me -- I don't deserve a big relationship fight over that. Asking her out, or continuing to stare -- yes.


It's a very personal choice - normally I would say that whomever feels less discomfort or has to make the smallest effort should "give in". But sometimes that's very hard to determine and each relationship will find its own natural balance (or not). As far as I can do that in my marriage I'm not really concerned if others are unreasonable. After all, we make our own decisions (in this case to leer or to make a big deal out of it) and live with the consequences. Obviously, bad choices will often have bad consequences and hopefully at least some people will learn something from it (or not :lol: ). I know I have very high standards/expectations in some respects, while I'm totally indifferent about things that most people seem to consider very important. I guess I'm very lucky that I genuinely don't care what others think of me and the way I live and vice versa.


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11 Jan 2011, 4:32 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:

It's a very personal choice - normally I would say that whomever feels less discomfort or has to make the smallest effort should "give in". But sometimes that's very hard to determine and each relationship will find its own natural balance (or not). As far as I can do that in my marriage I'm not really concerned if others are unreasonable. After all, we make our own decisions (in this case to leer or to make a big deal out of it) and live with the consequences. Obviously, bad choices will often have bad consequences and hopefully at least some people will learn something from it (or not :lol: ). I know I have very high standards/expectations in some respects, while I'm totally indifferent about things that most people seem to consider very important. I guess I'm very lucky that I genuinely don't care what others think of me and the way I live and vice versa.


I totally agree -- some of us will put up with both of the examples I gave, and some won't -- it's all individual choice and circumstance.



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11 Jan 2011, 8:56 pm

nthach wrote:
The reason why I chose the Prius to represent the aspie guy is that a Prius is seen as odd, awkward, ugly(or cute), and it tries too hard at what it does. And the Civic Hybrid(you can tell by the wheels and mirrors) blends in, like most aspergirls. And just like how a Prius will show a dramatic drop in performance when its hybrid battery depletes, and it's a piss poor handing car, the aspie male is weak, timid and afraid to put his foot down.


Stop calling me a goddamn Prius! It's bad enough I the term aspie is applied to both me and people that can't use proper english and then you go and degrade me to being a car that good for nothing (yes, NOTHING!)

Also, I have put my foot down to you, nearly everyone on this board, and especially every person in real life that held no authority over me. I am not timid and weak YOU are timid and weak and you are projecting your own image onto other people, which seems to be all the self pitying aspies around here do.


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quesonrias
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11 Jan 2011, 9:00 pm

I'm gonna be honest. I think men are just as complicated, they just don't think they are, which makes things even worse.


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