The biggest struggle I see on WP L&D

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Right, and I don't think its really either of these myself. Learned helplessness I think can come on for a lot of different reasons but mostly it seems like lack of workable/usable knowledge seems to fuel that. When you think about it, if someone doesn't know the rules, they're not just criticizing their own bad behaviors - they're criticizing everything they do that even seems to get one reaction or another. IMO knowing the difference and then being able to take your own traits and behaviors from being perhaps under 80% negative scrutiny down to maybe 5, 10, or even 20% even is a huge dose of freedom and self-confidence in and of itself, as it also helps these guys turn their own eyes away from themselves and focuses them on what they need to do in order to get what they want.

Hmm... since you mentioned the whiners in your previous post, there are at least two possibilities that may describe their situations:

1) They don't know what they're doing wrong, so they end up blaming themselves.
2) They do know what they're doing wrong, but they blame themselves anyway instead of doing anything about it.

And surely there are examples of both among whiners in L&D. For #1, I agree with you that they do need to learn what they're doing wrong, and hence I mentioned that they need to go back and learn the fundamentals of social interaction, then revisit the dating scene and see if they still have the same problems. This is in line with what you said, I think.

For #2, it's harder because it's not really knowledge that's going to help them out of their problems, it's confidence. It's reassurance. It's security. It's emotional support. Many of those people who fall in this category are passive aggressive; they are tired of the helplessness, so the whiny posts gives them a sense of empowerment. It's ok in the short-term, as it prevents someone's mind from utterly shattering, but it's harmful in the long-term because it does absolutely nothing to solve the underlying problems, and it consumes time that could otherwise have been used to embark on actually solving these problems.

I agree with this very, very much. I see way more good advice being given than bad, and the people who asked for advice just disregard it. And I'll see the same posters come back a month later asking about the same thing, get the same advice, etc (repeat).



I don't know everything about your life, but from what I understand you've only had one girlfriend/serious relationship, correct? And from what I've seen you say about her (not just in this thread) it sounds like you two just weren't compatible. It seems that you were more invested in this relationship than her. Yes you should keep long speeches about interests to yourself, but you should be able to have conversations with your partner about interests and show each other things that you enjoy. And you said somewhere that she dumped you because she thought you were "boring"? She obviously wasn't too invested in the relationship. It's always possible that you didn't do anything wrong in the relationship, that she was just didn't care all that much.

But back on topic, I think this is a good thread.

I think there may be a third possibility: They don't believe they're doing anything wrong - it's the paradigm of our society that has to change. I've seen this so many times in the "what's wrong with me" threads and in the "railing against women/men" threads and in the "why won't she/he give me a chance" threads. That's kind of what I meant by learned helplessness....a sense of not being able to figure out what the problem is - or refusing to accept what the problem is - and instead resort to insisting that the problem isn't them, but that the rules of society aren't fair and should be changed.

IMO, the rules of society aren't fair - not even a little bit - but it's a much straighter path to success if there's a willingness to effect some kind of change that might result in meeting those societal rules halfway. I have seen people wear themselves out giving advice to posters in this category, and only very, very rarely does the OP budge off their original perspective. I don't say any of this without compassion - I know it's an extraordinarily difficult situation to be in. But refusing to accept the possibility that the problem may lie within is just so self-defeating. It practically guarantees persistent isolation. That's an awfully high price to pay in order to be "right."

That's way too true, HG, thank you for mentioning it. In some ways, this third possibility overlaps slightly with #2 in that it's possible that they do blame themselves on some level, but rather than internalizing that blame and becoming eternally "woe is me" passive aggressive, they turn to denial and externalize that frustration as a "the world is wrong" type of behavior. Both are essentially coping mechanisms. In both cases, it's so terribly difficult, not just for the person involved but for the people around him or her.

I don't think that's fair to say either. Lots of people here including myself have enough social skills to do great at making same gender friendships and understanding the rules of normal socialization. Dating and particularly LTRs draw on a completely different set of resources over and above, lots of things will not have any logical intuition, its as if you really have to know the caveats of the human condition internally and how the opposite sex is wired generally speaking.

For a lot of people, just on how their minds and emotions work (not faulty, I just mean their own particular styles and upbringings) - they can have great social skills in the general sense and relationships can still turn out to be rocket science for them.


Its also a type of reassurance that they're effectively shredding their man-cards to get. Gender role is still alive and well in many forms and masculinity still doesn't really include that kind of behavior.

In that case, I think they'd need to be convinced that there is an answer, that someone can give them information that works or add to what they know. Where they could still be stuck is if they're at war with their own unrealistic standards and can't get in to change things - that's difficult and I know things like that can create nearly unmendable gaps for people. I would think in general though, once any excuse is taken away for hopelessness though its typically a matter of time before their own minds would realize their defense mechanisms are killing them and that their wasting their lives. Not too many people truly obstinate against hope IMO or would willingly do so.

I think, if and when that happens, it may be partly them but also partly what society seems to demand, ie. if you notice when you look around IRL the people who are self aware and altruistic are a bit lower on the ladder than those who think they're God's gift, take up as much space as they can, and are never wrong. Ego seems to generally set a lot of things in motion, for better or worse. Parents, guy friends, etc. will also feed guys this I'm sure that they're not supposed to examine themselves or question how they do things as its a sign of weakness (and, unfortunately to an extent their right). You also notice this - politically, with people either extremely liberal or conservative - their values are it, the world needs to change for them, in some instances they have a point but I agree that its irrelevant, you can be single and be right for as long as you like - if that bothers you, perhaps its time to rethink your approach.

Well, you indicate that you are great at making same gender friendships, but what about opposite gender friendships? I am wondering whether some of these "completely different set of resources over and above" that you're referring to may be referring to skills involved with dealing with the opposite gender in general, and not necessarily skills specific to dating and LTRs.

Dating and LTRs do draw upon skills above and beyond what's required for normal platonic relationships, but those skills are still ultimately based on the same fundamental principles upon which platonic relationships are built. In both platonic and romantic relationships, there are still concepts of personal space, the individual vs. the group, and powersharing. One reason it's better to practice with normal friendships instead of jumping to romantic relationships, is that you invest less in a normal friendship, and you correspondingly have less at stake in a normal friendship.

As for your using yourself as an example in this discussion: for whatever reason I don't regard you as one of the "whiners of L&D". I've always believed (and still believe) you had your sh*t together.


Definitely agree, and what society demands is rather imbalanced because society itself is imbalanced. However how would we fix this problem? The best I can do personally, is to believe that specific facets and standards set by a society or culture should be different, and to let my personal beliefs be manifested in my actions and dealings with other people so as to try not to perpetuate what I think is wrong. Basically, talk the talk and walk the walk, and don't be a hypocrite.

I'm reporting now from an internet cafe in Gold Coast Australia, still wanted to chime in because I was thinking about some parallel things earlier today.

That also depends how the opposite sex is toward you. For instance if you are highly attractive or have a certain vibe about all you'll have for opposite sex friendships are your friend's SO's, the rest will tend to either field you in or shut you down as a prospect - for people in that situation a good solid 'friend zone' isn't really there with much of anyone. That's not to say some guys/girls may lack fundamental social skills - that of course needs to be handled but to let you know I do believe there are a lot more obstacles in male/female friendships quite often and I am one of those who believes that most of the time, unless its two rather rare people, its typically one likes the other but it isn't returned so they take second best.


Yes, but, they also need a lot more. Its partly knowing as well how to turn the other person on, keep them interested, the rest I'd suppose is like things you'd do for close friends of several years plus but - as I'm sure you know - it gets maybe a tad more intimate.




I try . When I mentioned thinking about this thread earlier, I was at one of the malls shopping around and thinking about how this all works. I'm at that point where I am tired of being cynical and have for a long time, still find myself genuinely moved when I see women who seem to be there as well, out here it seems like it's a *little* better than the states on average but then again I have to admit that there are likely places in the states with similar culture.

I think the other thing - looking for a master and essentially that I'm looking for someone to give my greatest gift to, my heart and freedom, and that I'm shopping around for someone who's worthy of both those things - that's been big IMO.


I think people fielded in quite easily to the notion that they're wrong - core and all - and that the only way they'll ever have things work is if they 'correct' themselves (and in the emotional sense its a bit like correction in the Shining sense). Its a sell-out, its a gamble, I think though most people try to be savvy about it and simply reshape their outward behavior or how they manifest their emotions rather than trying to shut large portions of their identity off.

Another thing though - there was an author who someone highlighted in an earlier thread, a guy who wrote a book called 'The Myth of Male Power', he was an old 70's feminist who pushed for that movement and now hopes that guys can have an organized dialog. Inm abstract he made a point that I agree with - both genders seem to cut the specs for how the others behave. If nice guys for example can't get dates as easily, often times its because women perhaps have a harder time believing its legit just on account of what other guys do so - there are guys who blatanly chase and want sex and then there are guys who try to be sneaky and underhanded about it, not reality but I can only imagine that if bad behavior is that wide spread that's what it looks like. Similarly guys perhaps might think of women as egotistical control-freaks who might perhaps leave at the drop of a hat, some are, some aren't, and it ultimately makes the world more difficult for those who aren't because they have then to deal with the assumptions that guys may perhaps without knowing them, cynicism of course is almost never good for chemistry and a lot of times the more people have to cut through and prove themselves the more they're off put/turned off by the experience.