Gaze Rules - Every Woman Thinks I Want Them!

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Please forgive me if something similar was posted to this -- I tried to search, but it was disabled. I know better than to post without searching first.

I have this problem where every time I meet a woman, she secretly tells her friends that she thought I was hitting on her. My father taught me to be nice to women and treat them with respect, but I certainly don't fawn over them -- at least, internally -- I must be somehow non-verbally or this wouldn't be a problem, of course. My friend admitted to me that a person who, when I first met I could not STAND, thought the same thing, and that is when I really got confused because, frankly, if she thought I was hitting on her, I had no chance with any other woman thinking otherwise. I remember specifically barely even looking at her and avoiding her because she offended me with her behavior (she doesn't any longer -- in fact, she's almost a friend, because she's figured me out and has a friend who is a social worker so adamantly asserts that I must have AS). On top of it, I basically have no interest in a relationship, so there is nothing in my head there to betray me. Also, because of this, I make a point not to limit my interaction with women unless I truly am interested in them romantically, but that hasn't even worked. Has anyone else experienced this?

I have a theory -- it is due to gaze avoidance. When I was little, I never looked at anyone in the eye. I learned that not looking people in the eye means I'm lying to them. So, as I always do with social rules, I "installed" a directive into my head to always look people in the eye (I also have other rules, like "Never cross your arms or put your hand to your face because it looks like you are being defensive"). I think women may be taking the fact that I look them in the eye and do not look away after a few seconds as I'm talking to them means I am somehow in infactuated with them. However, I have no sense or idea of when to do so, and would have to actually count the seconds if I did (which is unrealistic), so I just keep the interaction as simple as I can.

He also theorizes that, because I'm nice to them, unattractive, and single, that it is enough. However, that does not explain the women I could not stand. Is it because I'm not actively mean to them? He thought that could be the case -- that most men in America are mean to women and, because I'm an exception, and obviously a nerd and a bit overweight, that I must be in love with every woman I see like a sick puppy.

The irony is: I want nothing to do with any of them because I'm not attracted to any of them and, frankly, I have enough trouble interacting with men much less the insanity of the NT woman.

I also hate how they fidget with their open top, as if they are worried I'm staring at their cleavage. I've installed a directive and follow it as if my life depends on it (and it does -- it is something I can get fired over), so I know I'm not looking. My NT buddy figures it is because they are afraid I might become attracted to them and want to be sure I don't look. Cleavage is in an awkward place, though, because if you don't look them in the eye, it's the other natural place to look, and easy to look by accident (I did that the other night when trying to pick a random place to look so I can think about something else after we were done talking and caught myself, luckily in time). If I were handsome and charismatic, they'd probably point to it and open it further, but I'm not, so there it is. He's seen cases where this happens, actually. When the women interact with him, they keep pulling their top closed, but when there is a handsome man around, they will not touch their top and practically push it up into their face!

Sorry, this post feels disjointed, immature, and whiny. Writing isn't my thing tonight. It's a rant, I guess.

Ha! Well I'll be darned. I have just the opposite problem. I'm afraid to look women in the eye. I usually focus on an imaginary point just beside or above them, or I look at the ground or my hands. I have a very hard time convincing any of them to do anything with me, even if it's just dinner or a movie. Whether or not that's because I can't make eye contact, I don't know.
One thing is for sure: It's not mean behavior. I've never insulted them, or suggested anything degrading, or belittled them, or anything. (Tho it seems that most mean guys have no trouble finding a girlfriend, which is something I can't understand.) I always try to listen to what they have to say. Maybe they think I'm inattentive because I don't look at them while they talk.

Personally, I would rather be not trying to get a date and have women think I am, than be trying to get a date and not be able to, but that's just me. Anyway, I wouldn't worry about people's assumptions. If they get the wrong impression, it's not you're fault.

When I talk to people, I still do gaze avoidance, but my voice still comes through in its usual rather authoritative manner...

Nothing like sending a few mexed missages[sic] to confuse the hell out of people...

Eye contact and romance, ugh. Why are they directly connected? I get anxiety of course with eye contact. But I don't want to seem shift so I try to maintain it for about as long as they do, like normally in a conversation. Like people look off and stuff, when things are happening around you, you can't have a casual eye staring contest and carry on a normal conversation. So I try to pass off low eye contact stamina as that something is always catching my eye.

But what gives me even more anxiety is someone hitting on me and the best way I can tell is through the eye, but I don't want to look at the eyes, but I want to seem a bit normal so I have to look. And if I give in and look away it makes it seem like I could be playing coy but I don't want that. Is that a Catch 22? I am not sure, currently reading the book and I don't think that one qualifies. Anyway, when I notice that some guy is trying to maintain a longer eye contact than casual, on top of the eye contact anexiety I am paranoid that they like me or want me or anything like that. But you can't just ask people or at least I can't just ask point blank if they want to date me or something becaues it would seem that I want to go out with them but I just want to know so I can clairfy things.

Like there are a few people around me, a coworker who is huge and he tries to talk to me and once he had to reach down for something which made him eye level with me and as he was reaching into this hole he just stared at me straight in the eyes. Ahh! I don't understand. And at school there is this graduate student who gives alot of eye contact to me and always tries to talk with me alot. Even my boyfriend tries to give the long stare stuff. Nope. I usually like block it with a paper bag. At least he understands. But yeah

Gaze and romance not a good mix. What is the atmostphere you mostly meet these women in? Like if it is in a mostly female environment or even male to female ratio, they might take being nice and treating them different from the men as a clear sign that want them to recieve you well and that you want to date them. And they would probably wouldn't think that you are hitting on them if you treated them just like any other guy. So either tone down the niceness or treat everyone male and female the same way.

I wish I could think about my eye contact and talk at the same time like that. There are too many variables and I have to just set my eyes to automatically track theirs and talk. Unfortunately, it come off as that "casual eye staring contest" (great way to describe it!) from their point-of-view because they cannot do that. There is no connection from my side to theirs.



It truly is the eyes, then, that women use to decide if a person is interested? This is why I avoid relationships -- the only thing I can reasonably control are my words and actions. But, it seems like words and actions are the least important thing in the exchange somehow. If I met you, it sounds like you'd do the same thing as the other women -- secretly talk to you friends about your concern that I am madly in love with you.



*Head... hurting* So just looking you in the eye at all counts? But... the rule is, if you don't look people in the eye, then you're not to be trusted. Or, like you said, you're being coy. Or you don't trust them. How on earth does anyone keep this stuff straight? It all seems to conflict somehow. And he talks with you a lot -- maybe he is interested, but not interested romantically. Gender is just a circumstance. The human is what matters? Men and women are different, but they aren't different, but they are, but we're not supposed to always show that we know that.



Any atmosphere but an overtly romantic one. I was brought up to treat men different from women because men act different from women. Open a door for a woman, treat them with respect, cherish women, but certainly don't fawn over them. I'm supposed to do that -- yet, I'm not, so I'm supposed to treat women like men. However, men don't act like women. Men won't take a stare into their eyes as romantic interest, they'll take it as honesty. The thing is, I am finding most people have sex on their mind practically all the time, men and women both. I actually don't -- in fact, it is one of the last things that occur to me. How people react to me says a lot more about them.

None of that matters, though. So, your advice is to treat men and women the same. That is impossible. Turn down the niceness -- that one woman I ignored. My buddy agrees with you on this: the only route to solving this problem is to treat women with disrespect. I can get away with this on some women, but certainly not on ones with power over me in the workplace. So, possibly breaking even (which is usually the goal) means ignoring them and not looking them in the eye? I keep searching for the rules, but they just don't make any sense to me.

Thank you for the insight!

Yeah it all makes my head hurt too and me to mini freakouts when no one is watching. I guess I would have to see how you treat women different from men exactly to see everything of course. Personally for me, I personally like working with guys much better because socially they aren't as complex as women. I have worked in a hardware store and currently a cafe which is equivalent to a henhouse full of clucking baristas. If a guy just treated me like everyone else he worked with with no special treatment I would be just fine because I don't think I would be required to talk as much or encourage to confide in them or something. Also I have heard the man talk about women, and that is something I don't want to happen to me. So I don't want to be in that realm for them to think of me like that. And them treating me the same is an indication that they don't think of me like that.

But with women, if the women treat me like the rest of the women that would include them being much more talkative to me and requiring me to reciprocate which I can't do well at all.

So I am obviously different from most NT girls.

I think the misconception is a combination of eye contact and behavior. Like if someone is looking into my eyes and NOT talking, big alert sirens go off in my head. But if they are talking I think there could be a chance they just make good eye contact, but I am paranoid so everything is uncertain.

But yeah, it does speak alot about them and their priorites. Unfortunately sex is on alot of NT's minds. Because I know that is what makes me paranoid that they could of me with that in mind. But girls I think that they can define their status to how attractive they are to others. Secretely they want a guy to hit on them and treat them a certain way so that they can feel good or secure about themselves. And the moment a real gentleman, with no alterior motives for being so, comes along they just assume because that is what they want, and they assume that you also have sex in mind. I worked with a girl who was sixteen, who just let this thirty year old guy hit on her, watching it was disgusting, and the moment the guy left the first thing she did was tell someone, acting as if she didn't know or something.

But yeah, I guess to a certain extend with your upbring and personalities this misconception may happen often, but I think the women will soon realize that you just treat all women like that and that you don't pursue anything more than just being nice. And they will come to the conlusion that that is just you and no alterior motives. And if your interaction with them is limited and you never see that woman again, you proabably just made her day.

Great points! You're right -- the women I'm friends with have figured me out. The danger is at work. We had a training video that had a person walk in and not say "hi" to everyone, but sit down at his desk. The people were offended that he did not say hi. According to the video, he was in LEGAL peril because of this. "Perception is Reality", they say, and so long as a person perceives something a way, it is "LEGALLY" that way. I'm not making up words -- that the word "LEGAL" was up often. Such a video is confusing because, first, perception is not reality, but it can affect the future. Second, that gives anyone power to hurt you for no reason. If a woman thinks I am hitting on me, they can file a complaint and I'd get fired. In fact, it happened to a friend of mine and he is having trouble finding a job now because of it.

Frankly, and I don't mean this in a bad way, I wish there were no women around me, ever, to interact with. Maybe this is why, in the computer programming field, there are so few women? Computer programmers tend to be like me and have enough trouble AS IT IS.

this is why I love computer scientists. They are the only men out there who don't try to get into my pants, who treat me like a human being, who are just genuinely friendly, kind, and affectionate. I personally think that the problem is with the women, not you. I am an affectionate person, and so I understand that you can be nice and personable to someone (a man or a woman) without any alterior motives; however, this is not how our society works. Anyway, I think the issue is with the duration of the gaze. Even though socially we're told to look into people's eyes, most people avoid DIRECT eye contact. They look at your face, and occasionally you might be making a very brief direct eye contact, but that's it. Another issue is the expression in your eyes. Since you are a gentleman, you probably have a kind, sweet expression in your eyes, and as I said, people in our society don't understand that you can be nice to people just because they're your fellow human beings--not because you want to have sex with them. Uh, all I can say is--good luck. And if it's any consolation to you, not all women are like the ones you had problems with.

LonelyLady, thank you so much for your insight! My NT buddy echoes those insights as well. I will try to install a new rule into my social programming to make 1 second eye contact and then look elsewhere at their face and try to come back 1 second throughout the next minute. I have to have a rules like that (me without rules gets me in a LOT of trouble because my mind seems to work entirely different than most I talk to).

Also, I hate to say it, but I think I'm going to avoid talking to women if possible. I did that once for this reason, though, and I was criticized for it. A woman came in and sat down that was my NT buddy's friend at work. I said, "Hi," in an amiable fashion, and went back to working on the computer. I wasn't involved in any conversations with her and it didn't feel awkward at all. When she left, I said goodbye, and figured, "Well, here's one that can't go wrong!" Sure enough, two other women (who already knew me well enough not to be offended by me) remarked about how I ignored her the whole time. I... did, and, well, what was I SUPPOSED to do? I obviously wasn't there being "set up" with her or anything and didn't know her and had nothing in common with her, so I defaulted to the standard rules of being amiable, without being stand-offish by involving myself in things that didn't concern me. The very definition of normal, right?

I figure that one was because of a baseline behavior change. What is "right" socially is often defined by our established baseline behaviors and what is "wrong" at any given time is deviation from that baseline behavior. So, because I didn't profess my undying love by looking her in the eye too long and talking to her, I deviated from MY norm, which is technically "right" by society's standards, but wrong because it was a deviation.

It all gets so confusing. I really hate socializing and I just can't figure out how anyone can do it at all. Although, I think my problem is caring too much about whether any given behavior is "right" or "wrong" -- that there is no right and wrong and that it is just behaving and fluid. Such things terrify me, though. There must be a "right" and "wrong" or I will, as history shows, always do the "wrong" somehow.

I don't think that your co-workers were criticizing you, they were just commenting on how you deviated from your norm (as you said you were). Similar to how us aspies get stuck in routines and what have you, NT's seem to get stuck in how a certain person will react in a certain situation, and when someone doesn't, it's a cause for comment or concern...


I can sum this all up in one word: word. (and I never use the word "word" in that conext for anything, so that's saying quite alot...)

That is one of the most clever things I've read in a long time. Thank you, ToadOfSteel!

You must like my username then! It's quite interesting what you said about people looking at a person's face rather than directly into their eyes. It gave me a flashback to an instance when an old coworker said I have the most intense stare they have ever seen. She wasn't referring to me staring at a distance (I don't do that), but how I look directly into a person's eyes when we are talking. I didn't really understand at the time. Your comment has cleared things up for me a little, I thought you were supposed to be looking at people when in conversation. Apparently I do that a little too much. But I have to because it's how I record conversations in my head. If I'm not looking directly at the person, I lose focus and then I don't remember every word precisely as it was said. Also I can't analyze their facial expressions (which I probably always misinterpret).

I work on many apects of my personality but I refuse to change that one! I see nothing wrong with it. It shows I'm giving you my full attention. If you are intimidated and feel the need to look away, that's fine with me.

Someone really needs to start a coffee shop, or better yet a vacation resort, and stock it with women like you!! ! AS men like me would come from 1000's of miles away. I'd be willing to fork over a few grand for a vacation where I could meet what I consider to be normal women!! ! (And NO I'm not talking about a brothel, for those of you with minds in the gutter!! !) Someone should send an email to the people who run Carnvial Cruises!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! The idea gets more brilliant with each passing second. An Aspies-only Cruise!! ! Brilliant!! !!

I have this problem a lot. Like many Aspies, I don't know how to time my eye contact. I seem to either do way too little or way too much. I learned about the "too much" by noticing the eye contact feedback I get back from people, mainly women. I'm a deep person, and I look people directly in the eyes just because -- not because I'm trying to communicate. That's just how I look at people. If I think a woman is attractive, I often find myself staring into her eyes. That simply means I find her attractive, not that I'm seriously interested in her. But I think most guys don't have an inner distinction being the thoughts: 1) "She's pretty", and 2) "I want to take her out." With most, the first leads to the second as if by reflex. But with me, there's A LOT I need to consider about her before I can decide whether I'd like to take a girl out on whom I've just laid eyes.

I may believe in love at first sight -- I'm not sure.
But I don't believe in discretion at first sight.