I MAY BE OLD-FASHIONED

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Ancalagon
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31 Jul 2011, 6:13 pm

blondieamc wrote:

Magnus_Rex wrote:

As I said: pointless. Conversations and doing things together are means of social bonding. I do have manners (when I'm not too distracted to pay attention to the other person), but pulling chairs and opening doors are ridiculously over the top for me.

Are you single? You would be shocked at how appreciative a woman is when she encounters a man who knows the difference between being polite and having manners.

What is the difference?

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AsteroidNap
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31 Jul 2011, 10:53 pm

The whole notion of being 'old-fashioned' is rather trite. What is 'old-fashioned' to us now, is not the same as being 'old-fashioned' when one lived in the 1800's...or the 1100's. These notions are not only time dependent, but geographically dependent.

But being respectful is timeless, and border-less. Opening doors? What will you do when all doors are automatic? Step in front of the sensor for women? haha. Pulling a chair out? Do you think ancient Greek males pulled out chairs for females?

All of these 'chivalrous' conventions that men were supposed to do for women are just ridiculous. My manners, politeness, and respect are not altered based on a person's gender.

DW_a_mom
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31 Jul 2011, 11:04 pm

Tica wrote:

I have been searching for a good man that is a gentlemen. What happened to the men opening our door, pulling out our chair or even using manners? It seems nobody wants to act respectful and pick me up at my house and meet my parents. I may be somewhat old-fashioned but if a man can do all that he can definitely take me out on a date. Even if a man is not like that at least paying for my meal and picking me up at the house is less old-fashioned.

Families don't train their boys to do those things anymore. Kind of simple. Not the social norm.

But it doesn't mean guys will be incapable IF they know it is want you want.

If that sort of thing appeals to you, I'd take the bull by the horns, so to speak, and tell men that show interest in you. If they are really into you, they'll try.

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AngelRho
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31 Jul 2011, 11:09 pm

Tequila wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Men and women are just plain different. That's all there is to it. I don't see the point of acting otherwise.

That's it. Trying to pretend otherwise would just make an environment far more sterile and humourless than it is even now. Only the far-left Millie Tant faction would get anything out of it, and their role is to divide and conquer.

The best that one can do is to behave as well as one can from people, following basic protocol (i.e. don't make sexist remarks, don't cat-call and women: don't make sexist jokes or go on about how useless men are) and then go from there.

QFT

norwegianman1972
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31 Jul 2011, 11:52 pm

Tica wrote:

Paying for your meal? Do you not have self-respect enough to pay for your meal yourself?

ValentineWiggin
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04 Aug 2011, 2:33 pm

Tequila wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

Men are people. Women are people. Thus treating men like men and women like women *is* treating men and women as people.

Indeed - the advice she seems to be giving is to be utterly sexless when dealing with women - whilst treating them as people - and not taking account of their differences and needs. What a sad, grey world that would be.

I see no differences between the sexes which require different treatment on a day to day basis,
nor see any "sadness" in treating individuals as exactly that, as opposed to archaic stereotypes based on their squishy bits.

Whereas you seem incredulous at the notion of treating women in an "utterly sexless" way, my mind is likewise-boggled at the notion of viewing fellow human beings in terms of archetypal dichotomies.

And Ancal, men and women's shared nature as people is exactly the issue, as opposed to their treatment as men vs women, as distinct from simply people. :wink:

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Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 04 Aug 2011, 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ValentineWiggin
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04 Aug 2011, 2:38 pm

Tequila wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Men and women are just plain different. That's all there is to it. I don't see the point of acting otherwise.

There are more differences among the sexes than between them, but declaring that men and women are different as if that's ever been in dispute is either deliberate straw-manning or a true and fundamental misunderstanding of what exactly the discussion is about, that being differential cultural modes of treatment of the sexes based on nothing more substantial than extremely-outdated notions of female ineptitude.

The issue's hardly one of humor, or a lack thereof, but of some wanting a rational explanation for the continuing prevalence of certain traditional acts, and being told to lighten up when those who flatly-proclaim them practical or reasonable, devoid of supporting reasons, find themselves unable to provide said rational explanation and thus initiate wild chucking of herrings left and right.

AngelRho
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04 Aug 2011, 3:04 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Declaring that men and women are different as if that's ever been in dispute is either deliberate strawmanning or a true and fundamental misunderstanding of what exactly the discussion is about, that being differential cultural treatment of the sexes based on nothing more substantial than extremely-outdated notions of female ineptitude.

Ah HA! So there MIGHT be a possible reason why differential treatment might actually be preferable? The assumption here is that the reason, if any be found, has to be a GOOD one. Is there a real need, for instance, for sex segregation of restrooms?

ValentineWiggin wrote:

The issue's hardly one of humor, or a lack thereof, but of some wanting a rational explanation for the continuing prevalence of certain traditional acts, and being told to lighten up when those who boldly-proclaim them practical or reasonable, devoid of supporting reasons, find themselves unable to provide said rational explanation.

Well, in practice, just about anything can be "rationalized." I do certain things because I just want to be nice. I don't see women as being inferior at all, and no action of mine, or at least I hope, would ever be willfully condescending.

Now, are men and women naturally good at certain skills/abilities, and do certain areas of critical thinking seem to favor one over the other? I've often heard in psych classes that women (in general) tend to be more nurturers/comforters, whereas men (in general) care less about validating your feelings and more about solving the problem. This is, of course, a generalization that by no means can't be devoid of exceptions.

On a fundamental level, and I also realize I'm stating the obvious, women are naturally equipped for child-bearing/nursing while men are, well, little else than sperm donors. Does it not also follow that these fundamental natural gender roles could extend to other areas of life? It's nothing to do with one being inferior as a whole to the other, just optimally equipped to naturally handle certain tasks.

Lastly, I'm not meaning to strawman anything here. Your response seems to indicate at the very least a partial recognition that there are some differences that probably shouldn't be ignored. There does, on the other hand, seem to be a degree of hypersensitivity among feminazi types whenever differences are even so much as hinted at. I'm curious of your thoughts here.

ValentineWiggin
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04 Aug 2011, 3:27 pm

AngelRho wrote:

The only assumption is that when asked why men and women should be treated so differently, people have as-yet come up with no better response on this thread than to continuously-assert that the sexes aren't identical. That's the "reason" provided, I called it irrelevant, and in so-doing pretty much did the opposite of what you just asserted I implied.

AngelRho wrote:

If it was an issue of "being nice" to people, wholesale, there would not be a gendered component, no? That's the entire crux of discussion.

AngelRho wrote:

On a fundamental level, and I also realize I'm stating the obvious, women are naturally equipped for child-bearing/nursing while men are, well, little else than sperm donors. Does it not also follow that these fundamental natural gender roles could extend to other areas of life? It's nothing to do with one being inferior as a whole to the other, just optimally equipped to naturally handle certain tasks.

Like...opening doors and paying for dinner and putting-on of coats, no doubt. :roll:

AngelRho wrote:

Lastly, I'm not meaning to strawman anything here. Your response seems to indicate at the very least a partial recognition that there are some differences that probably shouldn't be ignored.

No. Actually, I see no differences between the sexes prescribing different definitions of what is "nice" or "polite" or "courteous", and in truth no differences between them substantial enough to prescribe different means of treatment in things even beyond the superficial. If men naturally evolved to be better providers and women to be better nurturers (and that's a big "if") what, exactly has that to do with the irrationality of cultural pigeonholing of the individual into either of those roles? Not a damned thing.

AngelRho wrote:

There does, on the other hand, seem to be a degree of hypersensitivity among feminazi types whenever differences are even so much as hinted at. I'm curious of your thoughts here.

Aside from the fact that the Nazis were and are blatantly anti-feminist both philosophically and politically,
my thoughts on the subject remain on the continuing penchant it would appear that some have for defensively-deflecting onto others with accusations of hypersensitivity and humorlessness for the mere crime of asking for rational justification for this-or-that practice. Ironically, it would thus appear that said asker is less the one without humor, and certainly not the more hypersensitive, and said irony amuses me. :lol:

parrow
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04 Aug 2011, 4:03 pm

You must realize the context of what women were when manners still existed.

The Good Wife’s Guide. Extract from Housekeeping Monthly, 1955.
■Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before to have a delicious meal ready, on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have been thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.
■ Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.
■ Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first – remember his topics of conversation are more important that yours.
■ Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner, or other places of entertainment without you. Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax.
Don’t complain if he’s late home for dinner or even if he stays out all night. count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through that day.
■ Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.
■ Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember he is the master of the house and as such will always excercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.
■ A good wife always knows her place.

If I met a lady who followed these rules, I'd be happy to treat her properly as gentleman should.

hale_bopp
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04 Aug 2011, 4:08 pm

Paying for meals is a nice gesture I do it for people and they me - not boyfriends though. Just anyone.

The door opening coat grabbing screams "self proclaimed nice guy looking to get laid" to me, and I would treat that sort of behaviour suspiciously especially if it was someone I hardly knew.

Manners to me:

Saying please and thank you
Respecting others property
Respecting others
Greeting people when you meet them/see them
Not chewing with your mouth open.
Opening doors if the person is old, diasbled or carrying a lot of things
picking up something someone drops if they are elderly, have their hands full or disabled

Taking someone's coat is just pointless. So is opening a car door for a free handed fully able person, same with the other things.

Ancalagon
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06 Aug 2011, 7:00 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

I don't think the traditional 'take coat, open door' stuff is treating people particularly differently. It consists of doing entirely trivial things.

I also think the 'why' question is entirely answered by the word 'tradition'. Tradition isn't something that can't ever change, but if all you're asking is why people do (or used to do) things that way, it's tradition.

Quote:

If it was an issue of "being nice" to people, wholesale, there would not be a gendered component, no?

I don't see why not.

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Tequila
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06 Aug 2011, 7:48 pm

hale_bopp wrote:

The door opening coat grabbing screams "self proclaimed nice guy looking to get laid" to me.

The slag can take her own effing coat off and can shut her own door behind her too.

InsomniacDreams
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06 Aug 2011, 9:58 pm

Great job scaring the OP away.

Tica wrote:

You haven't posted in here since you started the thread, but maybe you have been lurking and watching, or will notice you were quoted. Hopefully you will also notice that some of the guys still believe in it and practice it.

Ancalagon wrote:

... Short answer: Feminism happened to them...

/\/\ This I tend to agree with this to a point.

Who_Am_I wrote:

...Now that we can support ourselves, it's pointless and infantilising...

This just made me laugh and made me think back to the days I used to run fetish events and to all the individuals I knew that were into infantilism. Then I had to go and look for something on it... but found an interesting post, by what I believe may be a feminist...

Quote:

Infantilizing Men
>Recently, I read a very interesting post by Hugo Schwyzer that made me think about how often men are expected to pay a role of infantilized, immature and helpless little creatures in a relationship. Hugo’s description of how he used to feel in his relationships is very telling in this respect:
“In my past marriages and relationships, I found myself– like so many men — taking on the part of the “naughty boy” and the “helpless child.” Time and again, I turned wives and girlfriends into mother-figures, and the result was inevitably disastrous. I’m not going to pretend to have all the answers as to why we do what we do, or even why I did what I did. I do know that I’m not the only man who found “courtship” easier than “relationship.” Over and over again, I devoted time and energy to “getting the girl”, and when I succeeded, soon felt vaguely let down and confused about my role. It was all too easy for me to become increasingly childlike...

Hugo Schwyzer tells us honestly why men agree to play the part of a helpless child within a relationship: it seems easier. Of course, as he also recognizes, this stunts your emotional growh and robs you of power to decide what actually goes on both inside the relationship and inside your own house. For my part, I’m more interested in why women agree to take on this model of behavior.
The answer, I believe, is manifold. On the one hand, there is that feeling of being indispensable that I discussed in my post on gender and housework. There is also a need to conform to the patriarchal standard that presents all women as more emotional as men, better at communication than men, and more capable of resolving emotional issues than men.

And then, of course, there is this whole issue of empowerment and control. As women, we often feel disempowered in view of continued gender inequality within society...

Our society offers us the romantic and emotional sphere as pretty much the only space where we can be completely in control. If you are infantilized by men at work, in a classroom, in the public sphere, it often seems like the only solution is to infantilize them in return in the personal sphere.

What we get as a result, is an unhealthy and unequal balance of power both in the public and in the private sphere...

More can be read about it here
http://clarissasblog.com/2009/10/17/infantilizing-men/

LadySera
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06 Aug 2011, 10:38 pm

I think chivalry is nice sometimes. I'm not big on socialization but not long ago I went to a bar for a few drinks. An older man started buying them for me. It was pleasantly out of the ordinary. Conversely I like to dress up for that type of thing. I guess I'm sort of old school in that reserve. The guy was complimenting me on lots of stuff I just like to do naturally when I go out, such as perfume, makeup and having my nails done. I realized it was sort of like we were unicorns to each other. I am used to dressing like that from where I used to live and people got ready to go out. Here I looked around and the other girls in my age range were all wearing cut off shorts and flip flops.

InsomniacDreams
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07 Aug 2011, 2:08 am

LadySera wrote:

I think chivalry is nice sometimes ...Conversely I like to dress up for that type of thing. I guess I'm sort of old school in that reserve. The guy was complimenting me on lots of stuff I just like to do naturally when I go out, such as perfume, makeup and having my nails done. I realized it was sort of like we were unicorns to each other. I am used to dressing like that from where I used to live and people got ready to go out. Here I looked around and the other girls in my age range were all wearing cut off shorts and flip flops.

Are your nails real? I ask because mine have finally in the last couple months grown back from freezing off some time ago, and I keep them polished and shaped nicely and people seem fascinated by them. The cut-off shorts and flip flops are everywhere. Sadly, I was disappointed to find-out that wearing pj bottoms seems to be as well.

*Off Topic, Anais Nin, very interesting individual, not one I see many have avatars of either, cool*

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