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Zokk
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27 Jul 2011, 10:04 pm

Tica wrote:
What happened to the men opening our door

I've always done that for people, both men and women. If I get to a door first with someone right behind me, I step out of the way and hold it open, and let them go first.
Tica wrote:
pulling out our chair

I don't necessarily pull out chairs, but I very often wait for the woman to choose a seat and sit down before I do the same.
Tica wrote:
or even using manners?

My parents ingrained all the basic manners and etiquette into me by the time I was a little kid. I rarely forget to say please, thank you, and you're welcome, even for the smallest favors.
Tica wrote:
pick me up at my house

If I had a car and could drive, I'd do that for anyone I'd date, unless they had a different scenario in mind.
Tica wrote:
and meet my parents.

I'd feel like a creep if I didn't meet my date's parents at least once, early on.
Tica wrote:
paying for my meal

I'd pay for the woman's meal on a date, unless told otherwise.

In short: My parents instilled manners and even chivalry in me at a very young age, and I haven't forgotten them; I use them quite often, actually.


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Ancalagon
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27 Jul 2011, 10:33 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
Someone discovered that women could actually do those things themselves.

No, they already knew that. It's not like people back then really thought women became helpless, but only in the presence of a man she was dating.

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What's wrong with a woman opening a door for a man if she gets there first?

Absolutely nothing.

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That tradition came from the days when women were greatly limited in their ability to earn money.

Given the position of dominance that men had at that time, showing deference to a woman as if she were superior really meant something.

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Now that we can support ourselves, it's pointless and infantilising.

Nowadays, it's just a gesture of politeness that some people do and some don't. It is pointless, just like all other polite gestures, like saying 'please' and 'thank you', but I can't see how it could possibly be 'infantilising'.


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27 Jul 2011, 10:55 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:

Now that we can support ourselves, it's pointless and infantilising.

Nowadays, it's just a gesture of politeness that some people do and some don't. It is pointless, just like all other polite gestures, like saying 'please' and 'thank you', but I can't see how it could possibly be 'infantilising'.


Because "please" and "thank you" are not de-facto societal expectations which are said by one person to another by virtue of the former being one sex and the latter being the other. The presumption that a man pay for a woman's food (versus -gasp- each paying for their own) is indeed infantilizing, as it occurs solely because she is a woman as opposed to a man, and casts her as dependent on his paternalizing charity.

"Thank you, fellow human being, for X act of kindness or courage" is a world away from, in essence, "Here, let me pay for your meal/open your car door/aid you in putting on your coat seeing as how you have a vagina".


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27 Jul 2011, 11:21 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
"Here, let me pay for your meal/open your car door/aid you in putting on your coat seeing as how you have a vagina".

That's not how it is at all. I really can't see how you could think that it is.


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ValentineWiggin
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28 Jul 2011, 12:31 am

Ancalagon wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
"Here, let me pay for your meal/open your car door/aid you in putting on your coat seeing as how you have a vagina".

That's not how it is at all. I really can't see how you could think that it is.


Because the offer would not occur if the word "vagina" was replaced with "penis".

Is that really difficult?

A dynamic where sex is the sole differentiating factor determining whether those things are offered or expected to be offered cannot be said to be one of common "courtesy", "manners", or "politeness",
but of something else.


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Ancalagon
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28 Jul 2011, 1:06 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
A dynamic where sex is the sole differentiating factor determining whether those things are offered or expected to be offered cannot be said to be one of common "courtesy", "manners", or "politeness",
but of something else.

I'll grant you the meal-paying thing (which, interestingly enough, seems to be the only one that *hasn't* gone out of fashion) being iffy, but the rest can hardly be called things that are 'offered or expected to be offered'.


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mcg
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28 Jul 2011, 1:12 am

It is just tradition. Most women will not hold it against you, nor will they think that something so trivial is an implication that they are incapable of taking care of themselves.



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28 Jul 2011, 3:50 am

Wow, I didn't know showing good manners could make people so angry!

I don't think that offering to help a woman put her coat on is sexist. Men maybe don't realise this, but women will help other women put their coats on, especially in winter if it is a big bulky coat (I live in a cold country). It is practical and it's also an act of showing the other person that you are helpful, kind and considerate - qualities I look for in a boyfriend and also in friends in general.



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28 Jul 2011, 7:54 pm

hurtloam wrote:
Wow, I didn't know showing good manners could make people so angry!

I don't think that offering to help a woman put her coat on is sexist. Men maybe don't realise this, but women will help other women put their coats on, especially in winter if it is a big bulky coat (I live in a cold country). It is practical and it's also an act of showing the other person that you are helpful, kind and considerate - qualities I look for in a boyfriend and also in friends in general.


It's only sexist if it's only men doing these things for women and not vice versa. Courtesy should be applied to all humans, not just one sex.


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29 Jul 2011, 1:38 am

"Why treat the sexes differently?"
"Herp derp it's just courtesy!"
"...huh?"
"Manners!"
"...but why treat people differently based on their sex?"
"Gawd, who carez anyway? Get a life."

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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30 Jul 2011, 7:57 am

Who_Am_I wrote:
Tica wrote:
I have been searching for a good man that is a gentlemen. What happened to the men opening our door, pulling out our chair or even using manners?


Someone discovered that women could actually do those things themselves.
Courtesy is nice, by why should it just be men who are courteous? What's wrong with a woman opening a door for a man if she gets there first?

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It seems nobody wants to act respectful and pick me up at my house and meet my parents. I may be somewhat old-fashioned but if a man can do all that he can definitely take me out on a date. Even if a man is not like that at least paying for my meal and picking me up at the house is less old-fashioned.


Why? Do you not have a job that allows you to feed yourself? Or were you perhaps planning on reciprocating at a later date? That tradition came from the days when women were greatly limited in their ability to earn money. Now that we can support ourselves, it's pointless and infantilising.
I've heard the argument that the man pays for the meal in return for the pleasure of the woman's company, which either way you look at it is bullshit: if taken literally, well, she gets the pleasure of his company, and if not: if she dislikes him, then why go on a date FFS? If you look at "company" as a euphemism for sex, well, women can and do enjoy sex, and if they don't and are just doing it for a free meal, that seems an awful lot like prostitution to me.


There is also the point that someone will probably gain very little by doing this and is more likely to be walked over by others wanting a free meal, free drinks if you will. Users.



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30 Jul 2011, 7:59 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
"...but why treat people differently based on their sex?"


OK then, so it's perfectly OK to talk to women like they're men at a bar, say? I'd love to see your reaction when that happens. Because at the end of the day, we're not treating you any different. Equality and all that.

Men use 'sexist' language; women use 'sexist' language; men and women talk together and separately. It all works out in the end.



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30 Jul 2011, 8:14 am

More or less.



The_Face_of_Boo
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30 Jul 2011, 8:57 am

I'll open the door for you if you do the laundry.


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30 Jul 2011, 9:50 am

:shameonyou: No, it's not enough.
The exchange has to be equally valuable for each party.