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AngelRho
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30 Jul 2011, 10:03 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
"Why treat the sexes differently?"
"Herp derp it's just courtesy!"
"...huh?"
"Manners!"
"...but why treat people differently based on their sex?"
"Gawd, who carez anyway? Get a life."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I think Valentine makes some excellent points here.

My thoughts: There's nothing really wrong with old-fashioned manners. Why do I open the door for my wife? Because she is the Queen of my household and deserves to be treated like royalty. It's just plain NICE to do things for people you respect, and I don't believe that she as a lady has any similar reciprocal obligation to me.

I am, of course, the King of the household, and as such I enjoy a certain amount of executive privilege. I'm the tie-breaker and veto power of the house. But, if you really want to be a good domestic politician, it does one well to recognize that tie-breaking and veto power are best used sparingly. I'm not a tyrant, after all. My wife is the "chief breadwinner," so she hold considerable power in her own right that, more often than not, I defer to her when it comes to decision-making. I recognize, also, her brilliance in all things economic and domestic. To go against my wife on something means I have strong convictions on something. These are the rare times that I'm right and I KNOW I'm right. It might make her angry if I "pull rank," but she also recognizes that I'm also 50% of this relationship and my opinions count for something, too.

The erosion of traditional rules of politeness between men and woman, I think, is mostly due to hardline feminism and postmodern confusion and ambiguity as to exactly what gender roles are or are supposed to be. If a woman is genuinely offended by a guy opening a door for her or feels her independence is threatened by such an action, she may simply say so and the guy never has to open a door again. "Just being nice" means respecting the wishes of a woman either way--it would be impolite to do those things if it bothers her. So, for me, holding a door becomes something that is helpful or a convenience to anybody walking through that door. I might open a door for my wife and my children, and if someone is behind me, I'll hold it open at least long enough for them to catch it. One thing I really HATE is when someone sees me coming just a step or two behind them and closes the door in my face. It's not merely socially coarse. It's flat-out inconsiderate. People in general tend to like and respect you more when you're helpful and, at the least, recognize and validate their presence.

And so if a man enjoys the presence of a woman, if thinks of her as being special and wants her to feel that she is special to and respected by someone, what is really wrong with being nice and treating her like royalty? We aren't able to lavish food and luxury on women 24/7/365. But it costs a man absolutely nothing to open a car door and offer a hand so she's not inconvenienced by having to CLIMB out of the car. If it's a problem, I won't do it. But I don't see why it's necessary that such niceties in the context of current culture and society are really just actualizations of an old-fashioned view of one sex being "weaker" than another. I think a lot of people just want to be nice.

This may be a stretch, but in the context of current culture/society, there may be some practical applications here as well. When entering a building, a woman and/or children are at their most vulnerable. A man, typically having more muscle mass and thus more brute strength, is an effective rear guard and less likely a target for kidnapping or rape. An attacker at least has to think twice about it when a man is involved. So rather than being an oppressive institution, it's an instrument of security. Maybe/maybe not. The point being I can see at least one possible good reason for keeping.



The_Face_of_Boo
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30 Jul 2011, 10:37 am

zena4 wrote:
:shameonyou: No, it's not enough.
The exchange has to be equally valuable for each party.


Being traditionally old-fashioned also means being unequal :P.


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zena4
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30 Jul 2011, 11:05 am

Well :roll:

Well, well, well.
If you're (or anybody) is young and strong enough to do for me all the things that I can't or never could do anymore, it's ok: I'll put for you your laundry in the washing-machine - as long as it still works.

... But maybe you're capable of fixing it as well when it'll break down for good?



The_Face_of_Boo
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30 Jul 2011, 11:37 am

zena4 wrote:
Well :roll:

Well, well, well.
If you're (or anybody) is young and strong enough to do for me all the things that I can't or never could do anymore, it's ok: I'll put for you your laundry in the washing-machine - as long as it still works.

... But maybe you're capable of fixing it as well when it'll break down for good?


I would just buy a new one, isn't the man just a walking ATM in the old-fashion traditional sense? :P


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30 Jul 2011, 12:13 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
Someone discovered that women could actually do those things themselves.
Courtesy is nice, by why should it just be men who are courteous? What's wrong with a woman opening a door for a man if she gets there first? Do you not have a job that allows you to feed yourself? Or were you perhaps planning on reciprocating at a later date? That tradition came from the days when women were greatly limited in their ability to earn money. Now that we can support ourselves, it's pointless and infantilising. I've heard the argument that the man pays for the meal in return for the pleasure of the woman's company, which either way you look at it is bullshit: if taken literally, well, she gets the pleasure of his company, and if not: if she dislikes him, then why go on a date FFS? If you look at "company" as a euphemism for sex, well, women can and do enjoy sex, and if they don't and are just doing it for a free meal, that seems an awful lot like prostitution to me.


^ this. All kinds of awesome.


QFT

Where I come from, most guys do open doors for women and allow them first- it can make for quite an awkward dance when you're walking in a group, but it's no big deal.

Wanting him to pay for your date though is a bit rich as most women have jobs (more than men even). I'd be a bit uneasy if a guy insisted on the first date unless he was earning waaay out of my league. After you've been dating for a while it's ok because you can just buy the next one...



ValentineWiggin
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30 Jul 2011, 1:01 pm

Tequila wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
"...but why treat people differently based on their sex?"


OK then, so it's perfectly OK to talk to women like they're men at a bar, say?

Oh, I forgot to mention, it's also a good idea to treat people with respect.
So unless you disrespect men and not women, of course it's perfectly OK to treat them the same way. Although I admit I can't at all empathize with the notion of treating people as men and women as opposed to...people, in the first place.
Tequila wrote:
I'd love to see your reaction when that happens.

I've never been in a bar, don't plan to, and, regardless, would take no qualms with being treated as a human being as opposed to a gender.
Tequila wrote:
Because at the end of the day, we're not treating you any different. Equality and all that.

Wait. First different treatment because of sex is so common you incredulously demand to know my reaction if treated as the same in an anomalous situation, and then you (you...I don't know the "we" you refer to) assert there is no such difference in treatment?
Tequila wrote:
Men use 'sexist' language; women use 'sexist' language; men and women talk together and separately.

...who said they didn't? :?
And who said anything of sexist language?
Tequila wrote:
It all works out in the end.

If you're content with status quo cultural practices, so be it.
Applying your opinion to any one example of them and declaring them objectively-acceptable is, however..interesting.


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Adam82
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30 Jul 2011, 5:25 pm

I'm a gentleman. I pull out chairs, open doors, etc. Yet I've never had a girlfriend in my life. SO I have been wondering the opposite: 'Where are the women that appreciate nice men, rather than some tattoed bikie bad boy'?



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30 Jul 2011, 5:25 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Although I admit I can't at all empathize with the notion of treating people as men and women as opposed to...people, in the first place.

Men are people. Women are people. Thus treating men like men and women like women *is* treating men and women as people.

I don't understand your objection.


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Tequila
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30 Jul 2011, 5:27 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Men are people. Women are people. Thus treating men like men and women like women *is* treating men and women as people.


Indeed - the advice she seems to be giving is to be utterly sexless when dealing with women - whilst treating them as people - and not taking account of their differences and needs. What a sad, grey world that would be.



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30 Jul 2011, 9:40 pm

Tequila wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Men are people. Women are people. Thus treating men like men and women like women *is* treating men and women as people.


Indeed - the advice she seems to be giving is to be utterly sexless when dealing with women - whilst treating them as people - and not taking account of their differences and needs. What a sad, grey world that would be.


Treating people in a completely gender-neutral way is unrealistic anyway. Our society is the result of hundreds of thousands of years of social and psychological evolution.



TurreticStorm
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31 Jul 2011, 5:19 am

chivalry is not dead yet my fellow knights in shining armor are just outnumbered by retards in tinfoil



The_Face_of_Boo
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31 Jul 2011, 7:46 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Tequila wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
"...but why treat people differently based on their sex?"


OK then, so it's perfectly OK to talk to women like they're men at a bar, say?

Oh, I forgot to mention, it's also a good idea to treat people with respect.
So unless you disrespect men and not women, of course it's perfectly OK to treat them the same way. Although I admit I can't at all empathize with the notion of treating people as men and women as opposed to...people, in the first place.
Tequila wrote:
I'd love to see your reaction when that happens.

I've never been in a bar, don't plan to, and, regardless, would take no qualms with being treated as a human being as opposed to a gender.
Tequila wrote:
Because at the end of the day, we're not treating you any different. Equality and all that.

Wait. First different treatment because of sex is so common you incredulously demand to know my reaction if treated as the same in an anomalous situation, and then you (you...I don't know the "we" you refer to) assert there is no such difference in treatment?
Tequila wrote:
Men use 'sexist' language; women use 'sexist' language; men and women talk together and separately.

...who said they didn't? :?
And who said anything of sexist language?
Tequila wrote:
It all works out in the end.

If you're content with status quo cultural practices, so be it.
Applying your opinion to any one example of them and declaring them objectively-acceptable is, however..interesting.



**Buuurp**

Wanna some ale mate? Let's have a drink and talk about video games and babes.


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anna-banana
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31 Jul 2011, 9:07 am

I work in a big office building full of middle-aged suits. they always want me to step into the elevator first.

I want them to step into the elevator first because I consider them "elderly" and anyway they carry those big briefcases and their foreheads sweat and make them look like they're constantly on the verge of a heart attack. I feel sorry for them and since I'm young I feel like they are higher in the hierarchy of respect.

I also step out of the elevator on the ground floor and not on -1 like most of them who drive to work and park their cars below the building. so there really is no reason for me to go into the back of the elevator. then when the doors open on ground floor and I want to step out of the elevator the poor men all suck their bellies in to let me through but they just *wouldn't step out* because in their minds, the woman has to be let through first. this always ends with a nightmarish exit wherein I practice my acrobatics in order to avoid getting myself rubbed by middle-aged beer guts.

I sometimes try to gesture them into the elevator first but they gesture back to me the "please, madam, after you" and just stand still. this could easily turn into an endless loop of awkwardness and gesturing so usually I just give in.

I'd happily see chivalry go extinct just so I could avoid those elevator rides.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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31 Jul 2011, 9:16 am

^Maybe they do that so they can watch your ass. :lol:

Or maybe because they don't want to be criticized for not being chivalrous enough? I do this for that reason.Even here, guys who step first are usually criticized and angrily stared by the girls . However, In Muslim and Druze rural areas it's quite the opposite, men step in and out first there, so maybe you'd love to move to some village there.


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Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 31 Jul 2011, 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

mcg
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31 Jul 2011, 10:08 am

Or take the stairs.