Do other Aspie girls ask guys out?

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saraip
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05 Nov 2012, 2:51 am

I'll definitely give the book a read - but I couldn't read must of The Game because I found it too insulting personally (as a woman). None of the most popular tactics work on me - nor would I use any of them myself - and I see it mainly as proposing that you manipulate people into going out with you. Furthermore, the end-game seems to be to get as many women/people as possible to sleep with you! That's certainly not what I'm going for :D

I agree that being AS makes socialising seems more black and white, but I also think that it is important to realise that using NT tactics will only have limited success in the long term - cultivating and sustaining the relationship using NT tactics won't work because we're not NT, so even if I personally managed to "snag" a guy using NT tactics, my true character would no doubt come through once we started dating seriously and he would see me as a fraud. On the other hand, as you suggest, it does help to have some good guidelines and I definitely believe that reading from multiple sources is always a good idea. I guess it depends a lot on what your relationship goals are at the end of the day. I will definitely keep you posted though! :)



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05 Nov 2012, 12:13 pm

Yes The Game does seem to be more about 'the hunt' and 'scoring' than about actually cultivating a meaningful relationship.. however that doesn't mean the same tactics cannot be applied in that pursuit as well.
Really dating for the sake of 'getting laid' and dating for the sake of cultivating a true relationship might not be so different in the starting phases.
Trying to get laid you might push your luck a bit more and be more assertive (get her into bed as quickly as possible) but in the end it's the behaviour after you have accomplished this that either ends it as a one-night-stand or cultivates it into a relationship.

"my true character would no doubt come through once we started dating seriously and he would see me as a fraud"

You fail to realize here that this applies regardless of whether you are NT or AS and regardless of the dating methods used to 'snag' a partner.
In ANY relationship in the beginning it's all about euphoria, 'being in love' and head over heels crushes. You usually don't get to 'know' someone better until àfter this phase ends and that is when you both are confronted with the actual person instead of the idealized 'knight on white horse' or 'pure and innocent princess' you've deemed your partner to be. This period of disillusionment is often the phase where most relationships fall apart because you realize your partner isn't perfect and he/she does so too. Failure to come to terms with these flaws/quirks and failure to compromise and put effort into cultivation and growth which is needed to sustain a true loving relationship means most relationships don't last long beyond the euphoria of the 'in love' phase.

This is also the time (in my humble opinion) that it would be best to introduce your partner to the fact that you have AS. Before the disillusionment ends there's really no point as he/she will not be able to think about what this entails rationally as they are overcome with emotions and euphoria. Too much later on might be too late and they might feel cheated for not being informed timely.
Also if you introduce them to the fact just after the 'in love' phase has ended this means you won't be wasting much time on a relationship that would otherwise fail anyway due to your partners inability to cope.
It ALSO gives a good excuse to have a heart to heart regarding each other, your expectations, flaws, quirks and to make compromises and promises. In most relationships couples don't actually mark this period of time properly or treat it with the attention it deserves which can lead to problems later on but having AS gives you a good excuse to properly go over the 'relationship parameters' I think.

Suffice it to say you shouldn't feel like you are a fraud simply because you make yourself out to be more 'NT' or more 'ideal' during the dating phase and the 'in love' phase.. everyone does this and it is quite normal. I'd go so far as to say it's a biological safe-guard to ensure humans actually end up in relationships despite their individualistic and over-ambitious partner requirements. Having had a 1-3 month 'in love' period behind you before being confronted with an actual person in all his/her individualistic ideals and thoughts at least gives you somewhat of a buffer to cope and relativate.
That's just my theory though. :lol:


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05 Nov 2012, 3:56 pm

saraip wrote:
I'll definitely give the book a read - but I couldn't read must of The Game because I found it too insulting personally (as a woman). None of the most popular tactics work on me - nor would I use any of them myself - and I see it mainly as proposing that you manipulate people into going out with you. Furthermore, the end-game seems to be to get as many women/people as possible to sleep with you! That's certainly not what I'm going for :D

I agree that being AS makes socialising seems more black and white, but I also think that it is important to realise that using NT tactics will only have limited success in the long term - cultivating and sustaining the relationship using NT tactics won't work because we're not NT, so even if I personally managed to "snag" a guy using NT tactics, my true character would no doubt come through once we started dating seriously and he would see me as a fraud. On the other hand, as you suggest, it does help to have some good guidelines and I definitely believe that reading from multiple sources is always a good idea. I guess it depends a lot on what your relationship goals are at the end of the day. I will definitely keep you posted though! :)


yeah but i'm wondering since i have asperger syndrome, maybe "The Game" by Neil Strauss is only meant for NT men who are struggling



saraip
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05 Nov 2012, 11:05 pm

AyporosFM wrote:
Yes The Game does seem to be more about 'the hunt' and 'scoring' than about actually cultivating a meaningful relationship.. however that doesn't mean the same tactics cannot be applied in that pursuit as well.
Really dating for the sake of 'getting laid' and dating for the sake of cultivating a true relationship might not be so different in the starting phases.
Trying to get laid you might push your luck a bit more and be more assertive (get her into bed as quickly as possible) but in the end it's the behaviour after you have accomplished this that either ends it as a one-night-stand or cultivates it into a relationship.


I'm afraid I don't agree with this at all. Perhaps from a guy's point of view, that might be the case, but from a girl's point of view, that's certainly not the case. Women who are only in it for the chase by definition have to be more flirtatious, initiate and sustain more eye and physical contact and be more sexually aggressive from the outset, as well as dress more provocatively and care more about their appearance. Otherwise there is no illusion of being someone's fantasy shag. It's true that some relationships start out as one-night stands, but I am hard-pressed to find any of those relationships which have actually been successful (i.e. lasted and ended in long-term committment). I think the end goal of the relationship plays a big role in how you choose to start it.

AyporosFM wrote:
You fail to realize here that this applies regardless of whether you are NT or AS and regardless of the dating methods used to 'snag' a partner.
In ANY relationship in the beginning it's all about euphoria, 'being in love' and head over heels crushes. You usually don't get to 'know' someone better until àfter this phase ends and that is when you both are confronted with the actual person instead of the idealized 'knight on white horse' or 'pure and innocent princess' you've deemed your partner to be. This period of disillusionment is often the phase where most relationships fall apart because you realize your partner isn't perfect and he/she does so too. Failure to come to terms with these flaws/quirks and failure to compromise and put effort into cultivation and growth which is needed to sustain a true loving relationship means most relationships don't last long beyond the euphoria of the 'in love' phase.


Again, I don't think this is the case. It's certainly the case if the basis for the relationship is a mutual physical attraction - which I'm not criticising. When you like someone, however, and the other person doesn't yet like you or still needs time to get to know you, the start of a relationship is very different. I'm not saying there isn't an "in love" phase, but it certainly happens a bit later than right in the beginning. I think it is very different with Aspies as well because we tend to over-rationalise everything, making an "in love" phase very hard to sustain without constant pretence, which, let's face it, Aspies are less able to do.

Now, taking into account what I said about about women who are in it purely for sex - Aspie girls aren't like that. You could possibly pretend for a few hours, but the fact that eye and physical contact are unbearable would be the first giveaway. (On re-reading this, I realise that the fact that you aren't wearing the latest fashion, don't spend as much time on hair and make up and show no real body language might be the first giveaway). If you switched those behaviours on and then later switched them off, the person would interpret this as a lack of interest and that would be it. That's what I mean by being exposed as a fraud.

Personally, I like to get the AS out in the open even before dating comes onto the table, because I don't feel comfortable dating people I don't know. I tend to have crushes only on people I am already socially acquainted, and being approached by strangers makes me incredibly uncomfortable and I have never given out my number (bear in mind, I despise talking on the phone as well) to a guy who has asked for it. Does this limit my dating potential? Yes, it certainly does. On the other hand, it gives me a sufficient level of comfort that when there is dating potential, my Aspie traits aren't going to be what blows the deal. Well, granted, they may be at some point down the line.

AyporosFM wrote:
Suffice it to say you shouldn't feel like you are a fraud simply because you make yourself out to be more 'NT' or more 'ideal' during the dating phase and the 'in love' phase.. everyone does this and it is quite normal. I'd go so far as to say it's a biological safe-guard to ensure humans actually end up in relationships despite their individualistic and over-ambitious partner requirements. Having had a 1-3 month 'in love' period behind you before being confronted with an actual person in all his/her individualistic ideals and thoughts at least gives you somewhat of a buffer to cope and relativate.
That's just my theory though.


I shouldn't have said "feel like a fraud", I should have said "be a fraud", because I would have to do a lot of pretending, and that ultimately would not be honest. I personally wouldn't enjoy it, nor would I enjoy someone doing it to me. I believe in setting expectations upfront, but that's just my personal approach. At the end of the day, we each do what works best for us, and all I'm saying is, the NT approach doesn't work for me. I've had my experiences with it and find it to be incredibly unrewarding. I also think that my previous approaches with guys could use some work, but at the moment, I'm not socially active at all (for various reasons, one of which being I've moved to a smaller town so I can spend less money so I can save up to carry on studying new subjects). It is great to think about all of these things during the down-time from society.

By the way, most studies show that the "in love" phase usually lasts a few years, i.e. long enough for people to get married and stick together in a purposeful sense ;) If you're calling it at 1 - 3 months, chances are that it was infatuation and not being "in love". In that case, the person probably was a bit of a fraud.



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06 Nov 2012, 1:29 am

Oh, yes.. I was definitely referring to the 'infatuation' stage as you call it when I said 'in love'.

Reading your post I agree that The Game most probably isn't going to help you.

Regarding your disagreement:
You are probably right. What I wrote down is how I believe it to be possible based on my knowledge and (limited) experience and I agree your viewpoints sound very agreeable to me.
I've always tried to be as 'NT' as possible (not knowing I had AS) and have lead quite a 'normal' teenage life which has caused me to 'adopt' certain NT aspects when it comes to dating..


I agree that you shouldn't feel uncomfortable or a fraud during your dating process. If it makes you feel bad it probably isn't worth it.
I was just stating the fact that it is quite normal/common in case you thought it was undesirable from a social/community standpoint and not a personal dislike.

Good luck anyway in your dating endeavours! :)


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saraip
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06 Nov 2012, 1:43 am

Well, I've really enjoyed hearing your points of view - you have opened up a lot of new things for me to consider! It's been great to have someone openly share a lot of things that some AS sufferers try and avoid entirely, and I certainly think you'll be successful in the dating game!! I might not agree with all of your views (I do agree with some of them though), but I think it is also good for other followers to get an all round perspective - and yours was very well stated. Great chat.

On the other hand, I can't wait to check back with you once I've read "Asperger meets girl" to get some more new insights - and plus, my views may change when I actually start actively dating. It's all part of the fun :D

Good luck to you too!!



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06 Nov 2012, 2:21 am

I think part of the issue might be location. NTs might got to clubs, bars, and other social gathering places with the sole intention of meeting someone. The mere fact that the girls are there, dolled up, means that NT guys are likely to interact with them. I don't know whether it's all male aspies or just me, but I am no more, if not a little less likely, to converse with strangers in this setting. But even some NTs need the social lubricant.

What I'm saying is that there are places that are generally understood to be places where one might find a partner. In these places, people might even expect interaction. If you ask in the wrong place or at the wrong time, your chances of success are lower (I'm guessing purely statistically).

If a girl started talking to a guy at a coffee place, I think we all agree this is not outside the realms of the normal. If she did it at a cricket match or on the tube, she might get a less enthusiastic response.

These locational variables may not be considered by someone with AS, so they are literally looking for love in all the wrong places.



saraip
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06 Nov 2012, 2:27 am

LOL - trying to talk to a guy during a cricket game or during a football match = amusing mental image :)
Sorry for stereotyping, but you do make a good point!



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06 Nov 2012, 2:43 am

Funnily enough that precise sentiment is addressed in Asperger meets girl MisterSpock.

The writer of the book states that clubs/bars might not be the ideal places for aspies to meet new people as they are generally crowded/loud and, as you said, a certain form of social (NT) conduct is expected there.
I personally don't really have an opinion either way and believe 'love' can happen anywhere and any time but I dó believe it is true that people at a bar/club might be more in the mindset of 'meeting new people' than as you mentioned the tube or a cricket match. Whether this is true or not is debatable and in the worst case it just means there is an extra 'hurdle' to overcome; nothing dealbreaking per se.


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06 Nov 2012, 8:57 am

Go to a library, there's some inspiration of how you can meet like minded people most of the time.


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07 Nov 2012, 4:30 pm

if only more did so



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09 Nov 2012, 4:36 pm

AyporosFM wrote:
Relationship Space:
Whenever you are engaged in communication with someone there is a relationship space that is active between you which decides for the most part how the communication will progress.
This 'relationship space' can be summed up by 4 values. X1, X2, Y1, Y2.
1 stands for you, 2 stands for her.
X represents the role played by one person in the imagination of another. A larger role is represented by a higher
value for X. If she can’t stop thinking about you, then that’s
a very high value of X2.
Y represents the immediate presence of one person to
another’s attention. Y can increase as you stand closer to
someone. It can also be increased by what you say and the
way that you say it. For example, if you say something
important which demands a response then this increases Y2.
The same applies to X1 and Y1 but from her point of view.

So the courtship ritual (defined in the model of relationship spaces) involves nothing more than trying to increase both X2 and Y2.
The cravat however is that you do not want to increase Y2 too fast as to overwhelm your X2 value. If you get too close to her liking or ask a way too personal question (forcing Y2 way up) she WILL back off to lower her Y2 and this will probably have a negative effect on your X2! The skill is thus in firstly trying to ramp up your X2 value (get her to like you/think about you/concentrate on you) BEFORE you try ramping up your Y2 (getting closer to her, asking her more personal questions, imposing on her or telling her that story about your latest accomplishment at work)


Would you please rephrase the X1 X2 thing for me? I don't get what you mean by the Y values. Maybe it's just that my brain deals better with names. Thanks!



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10 Nov 2012, 3:24 am

smudge wrote:
AyporosFM wrote:
Relationship Space:
Whenever you are engaged in communication with someone there is a relationship space that is active between you which decides for the most part how the communication will progress.
This 'relationship space' can be summed up by 4 values. X1, X2, Y1, Y2.
1 stands for you, 2 stands for her.
X represents the role played by one person in the imagination of another. A larger role is represented by a higher
value for X. If she can’t stop thinking about you, then that’s
a very high value of X2.
Y represents the immediate presence of one person to
another’s attention. Y can increase as you stand closer to
someone. It can also be increased by what you say and the
way that you say it. For example, if you say something
important which demands a response then this increases Y2.
The same applies to X1 and Y1 but from her point of view.

So the courtship ritual (defined in the model of relationship spaces) involves nothing more than trying to increase both X2 and Y2.
The cravat however is that you do not want to increase Y2 too fast as to overwhelm your X2 value. If you get too close to her liking or ask a way too personal question (forcing Y2 way up) she WILL back off to lower her Y2 and this will probably have a negative effect on your X2! The skill is thus in firstly trying to ramp up your X2 value (get her to like you/think about you/concentrate on you) BEFORE you try ramping up your Y2 (getting closer to her, asking her more personal questions, imposing on her or telling her that story about your latest accomplishment at work)


Would you please rephrase the X1 X2 thing for me? I don't get what you mean by the Y values. Maybe it's just that my brain deals better with names. Thanks!



Sure. What I meant to say is that the relationship space is defined by 4 vectors, 2 for each participant (i.e. YOU and HER/HIM)
X1 = what you think of her (like/omghotttt/interested/sexy..etc); how much you are paying atttention to her
Y1 = how immediate she is to your attention (is she standing right in front of you/looking at you/waving at you)
X2 = what she thinks of you
Y2 = how immediate you are to her

It might seem like Y1 and Y2 come down to the same thing but that isn't true. You can have a higher Y2 than Y1 simply by you staring at her but her not staring at you/looking away (for instance).

As I mentioned earlier though to get a proper understanding I highly recommend you read the book Asperger meets girl.


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10 Nov 2012, 3:43 am

saraip wrote:
I was writing to a friend this morning and it occurred to me that I have always asked loads of guys out - only one ever said yes though! :)

The reason I ask is because most NT girls are horrified at the thought of asking a guy out. I'm not a pretty or a girly girl at all - I think I may come across as quite asexual, but when I have a crush on a guy, I have no problem telling him or asking him out. I wonder if this might be something that other Aspie girls do?

In any case, the response is usually very negative - in most cases, guys seem to get very uncomfortable and freaked out - mostly because they don't like me and I think they feel uncomfortable having to tell me that they don't like me - I don't actually know. On the other hand, I prefer to get what I'm thinking off my chest - I find it incredibly uncomfortable and unpleasant to have feelings for someone but have to keep them hidden - in fact, I find it ridiculous - I would rather be rejected and be able to get on with my life than pine for someone who does not reciprocate. In the case where the guy said yes, the relationship was pretty crap - I wonder if that had something to do with it? Who knows... thoughts, opnions, feedback?


Yes. I think a lot before doing it..as to if the guy is worth it and all. Usually I reject him already during this thought process itself. But I have done it once. Well the guy had issues committing/getting close to anyone. and he said no in a very nice way that made me like him more. But getting it off my chest was a HUGE relief!


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12 Nov 2012, 2:01 am

Yes I do ask guys out but rarely guys I know in person. Typically off of dating sites, I have more confidence. In person, my confidence drops drastically. I went through a phase where I was asking out tons of guys, most said yes. Well none worked out...err. I came stopped the online dating thing out of fustration. I've resumed the online dating thing however my approach is a lot less aggressive. I tried to tone it down. Once I figured out how to date. It was hard to not jump at things cause I'd rather be the one doing the chasing then being the one chased. Heres the thing, if a guy has to I guess "chase" me then normally I'm not that interested. When you run into those situations of being chased and the guy just thinks your playing hard to get, its annoying.