My issues with the manosphere and red-pill-ism.
MRAs/PUAs/the "manosphere" or whatever one wants to call it is patently ridiculous. It mostly consists of bitter, mysteriously almost always white men who seem to be insistent that women as a general group are evil, manipulative people who are screwing men/the world over. The other day I had a bit of a debate with one on Twitter. This included justifying some other guy claiming he would find a man accused of rape not guilty even if the evidence showed he was guilty because "the court system fakes evidence."
SeigiCitadel24
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Joined: 1 Oct 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 15
Location: Australia (Goukoku)
Precisely why I think the whole 'manosphere' is utter bollocks. If a man wants to be a man, do what feels right for you (I do NOT endorse criminality, however), learn from your mistakes and don't end up being indoctrinated by someone who claims to know what being a man is all about. Makes me laugh at how they blame women for their own problems. Of course some women are responsible, but there are always more than one side to every story.
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luanqibazao
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Here I was thinking that a "manosphere" must be some kind of complex variation on a circle jerk ? and dang, looks like I was about right. The above is funnier though.
I never heard of any of this before. None of it sounds even remotely connected to Objectivism to me.
My view on this changed quite a bit over the past couple years with experience and reflection.
The truth is, women don't want to be treated like men. Men go out there in the dating world and they haven't learned anything at all about women and are basically floundering instead of developing good boundaries and emotional insight.
Redpill/PUA/Manosphere etc. are all the same to me, its catering to men who didn't know what to do with women and followed some lame stereotypical advice like 'buy her flowers' and just generally tried to treat them as they would want to be treated. The problem here is that women don't think like that at all.
This misunderstanding is not sexist, its just because men are failing to look at the reality in front of their eyes and learn to take care of their women.
I am now certain that I merely didn't know what I was doing around girls. I was just trying to be nice and hoping the sex would just happen at some point.
This is wrong. As men, we need to learn how to read women and stand up for ourselves or suffer because we assume we understand something from the outset.
Its because its not challenged in society that few people are aware of this. If you want to be good at golf, you go to a golf trainer and practice. If you want to be good at women, you gotta get trained and get your experience with them.
Otherwise, you're doomed to become a MRA type to regain your power. And @OP 'discovering' things for yourself is great for emotions and such, but this is a difficult technical skill and knowledge based subject that is not well promoted.
I suggest you start listening to beigephillip podcasts, he's very entertaining and you're welcome to disagree but the guy has more experience with women than any of us here and is well spoken.
SeigiCitadel24
Butterfly
Joined: 1 Oct 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 15
Location: Australia (Goukoku)
The truth is, women don't want to be treated like men. Men go out there in the dating world and they haven't learned anything at all about women and are basically floundering instead of developing good boundaries and emotional insight.
Truth: a term that is twisted by the realities of those who claim to know what they are doing.
This misunderstanding is not sexist, its just because men are failing to look at the reality in front of their eyes and learn to take care of their women.
Yet judging by this message you seem to talk just like one from the PUA community by quoting 'Beige Phillips'. No matter how hard we try we are all going to misunderstand women.
This is wrong. As men, we need to learn how to read women and stand up for ourselves or suffer because we assume we understand something from the outset.
Its because its not challenged in society that few people are aware of this. If you want to be good at golf, you go to a golf trainer and practice. If you want to be good at women, you gotta get trained and get your experience with them.
So in other words women are basically objects. Bad analogy, dude. You need to understand that there are women who prefer hanging out with men and sometimes they DO want to be treated like men. So not all women are the same, that means not all are going to be taken by pick-up lines.
Dude, I am not an MRA and from my experiences from my exes I know where I stand. Also, don't insult my intelligence that by discovering things for myself is great for emotions and such. If it is difficult, so what? Nothing ain't easy in this world and I prefer to discover things myself than to be treated like a baby from someone claiming to 'know all about women'. Better to be stupid than to act like an arrogant ass.
PUA propaganda, and not buying into it.
You see, Desurage, I am a critical thinker and I think for myself than to be gullible. Call me a troll if you like, but I assure you I do NOT stand for any of the manosphere stuff. To be frank I would be more focused on what I am into and on the welfare of my family and friends; the opposite sex should be the least of my worries. Sure we need confidence and all but the harsh reality is that life goes on. The truth that you hold is your truth and ONLY your truth.
I love women and I know what kind of woman I am looking for, but I do not make such a big deal out of it. So what if I make a wrong move, I just pick myself up and move on. Picking up women is not my thing and I rather be approached than to approach. That's me and if that's a problem, well that's just tough.
So thanks for the advice but I would rather be a skeptical man than a gullible man. If life as a man is all just about women then life is not worth living at all! Society is to blame for the confidence issues and all.
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All Under Scrutiny! Assume Nothing, Question Everything!
Desurage: Actual woman speaking. Your leader is a great entrepreneur making skin off a lot of frustrated, confused, inexperienced guys. But holy s**t, is he peddling a load of crap to you guys. Granted, it's a load that makes you feel good. But this stuff is...nothing to do with reality. I'm sorry.
Women are people. That's all. If there's a major difference, it's that we don't have a world of threatening men around telling us that we have to behave in particular ways or we're p*****s and thus great targets for beatings and ostracization. (We do have threatening men around, but that's not the message we get from them.)
I would suggest you tell the threatening men to piss off and go live your own life, by your own values. But there is no "women want". Because we're people. Like you.
A lot of guys are just sick of being insulted.
Take the 'consent' meme going around on campuses. As a guy, I love explicit verbal consent, but a lot of girls don't. A frustrating proportion will do this: http://oglaf.com/submission/
You'd never know that from feminist PR. When I worked at a nonprofit, one of the other NORGs in our building was a women's group. They had a poster outside their office with a picture of a pushy looking guy with a thought-bubble that said "She didn't say no," and an apprehensive looking woman with a bubble that read "I didn't say yes." I found that pretty insulting. I worked hard to give the girls that I'd dated every chance to be responsible for their end of the relationship, and only about half of them were willing.
Coincidentally, it was an MRA site where I first encountered advice on how to pick women who wouldn't do that. Love 'em or hate 'em, MRAs filled a vacuum.
The dating guides that feminists promote are full of ways of building relationships that women want, as though men are worth nothing and we have to grovel our way to a relationship to be complete. No thanks.
SeigiCitadel24
Butterfly
Joined: 1 Oct 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 15
Location: Australia (Goukoku)
Dude, we are ALL sick of being insulted but that's life. Either put up or shut up and ignore the diatribe.
You'd never know that from feminist PR. When I worked at a nonprofit, one of the other NORGs in our building was a women's group. They had a poster outside their office with a picture of a pushy looking guy with a thought-bubble that said "She didn't say no," and an apprehensive looking woman with a bubble that read "I didn't say yes." I found that pretty insulting. I worked hard to give the girls that I'd dated every chance to be responsible for their end of the relationship, and only about half of them were willing.
Ah yes, the feminist dribble. Seriously, I am not for or against feminism, nor am I for or against the MRA. So what if you found it insulting? Of course there are going to be problems between sexes, but again that's life. There are two sides to every story, so don't just go assuming that your side of the story is the more credible one.
Good for you, however that is biased on the fact that it filled YOUR vacuum. Sure it may help you understand women in western cultures, but do not paint the women of other cultures under the same brush.
And you think I am one of those people being indoctrinated by these 'feminist' sites? Right...
It didn't take me dating advice and a bunch of patronising websites, but in fact past relationships that shaped my views on women.... in the Western world. I strongly doubt, thanks to the diversity of cultures all around the globe, that men and women fully understand each other. The whole PUA/MRA rhetoric is purely western-centric and nothing more.
It makes me laugh at how things are pointed as 'feminist', it sounds exactly like fundamentalist/evangelical christians pointing at things as 'Satanic'. We are no better than women when it comes to what we want in a relationship, and that is why I do not reading dating guides or advice from ANYONE, be they coaches/feminists/MRAs/whatever as I consider them to be nothing more than anecdotal evidence (a logical fallacy)
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All Under Scrutiny! Assume Nothing, Question Everything!
Last edited by SeigiCitadel24 on 24 Jun 2014, 3:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
Take the 'consent' meme going around on campuses. As a guy, I love explicit verbal consent, but a lot of girls don't. A frustrating proportion will do this: http://oglaf.com/submission/
You'd never know that from feminist PR. When I worked at a nonprofit, one of the other NORGs in our building was a women's group. They had a poster outside their office with a picture of a pushy looking guy with a thought-bubble that said "She didn't say no," and an apprehensive looking woman with a bubble that read "I didn't say yes." I found that pretty insulting. I worked hard to give the girls that I'd dated every chance to be responsible for their end of the relationship, and only about half of them were willing.
Coincidentally, it was an MRA site where I first encountered advice on how to pick women who wouldn't do that. Love 'em or hate 'em, MRAs filled a vacuum.
The dating guides that feminists promote are full of ways of building relationships that women want, as though men are worth nothing and we have to grovel our way to a relationship to be complete. No thanks.
This is easy, then, if a girl won't say what she wants. You end the date and go home. Just like you don't make a deal with someone who won't say what he wants. All you get out of dealing with someone like that is trouble.
I don't think the feminist angle is about how "men are worth nothing". It's just a matter of saying that some things aren't negotiable -- which I think a lot of guys take as a personal insult, and that in itself raises, for me, the question of what they're expecting to take for granted. If you're not going to treat me like I'm a person, then we're done, thank you, goodnight. You want me to mother you, I'm sorry, no, I've got an actual kid. You want me to give you a pass on yelling at me and slamming things around in the place where I live because you're frustrated -- no, sorry, you have to go, no, we aren't going out again. You want me to pick up after you and pretend you're doing your share, no. I'll do that for an eight-year-old, not for an adult.
A lot of things changed for me, when it came to what kind of treatment I'll take from other people, when I had a kid and became responsible for teaching that kid how to behave, how to contribute, how to treat other people (including me), and what kind of treatment she ought to expect from others. When I started dating again, I realized that I'd just been used to letting guys treat me terribly. In ways I'd never accept from my own kid. Disrespectful, petulant, selfish, waiting for me to wait on them. I used to just hang around tolerating their being morose, blaming the world for their unhappiness. Again, nothing I'd let pass in my own house, because it's important for a kid to learn how not to do that -- if you're unhappy, figure out the problem -- help is okay, so long as the object is actually to get somewhere -- and do something about it, and if you're bored, fix it. And grabbing! Yeah, one guy tried to just grab. It's amazing how well that doesn't play after you've spent a year teaching a preschooler that the thing to do if Caleb is grabbing her isn't to sit and howl, it's to tell Caleb to stop it, and go tell the teacher if he won't.
I found I was getting a lot of other complaints from the guys, too, though most of them seemed to have more to do with the guys' own discomfort in the world at midlife than with me. I didn't make them feel needed. I wouldn't let go of my own work and income and let them prove what heroes they were. I was too energetic, I wouldn't just sit and watch TV with them. You know, none of these things were my problem. It's not my job to make a guy feel needed or masculine or adequate; that's up to him. I don't invite him over for the purpose of fluffing my ego; that's not why I'm there for him, either. And for crying out loud, I'm responsible financially for myself and a child, of course I'm not going to drop that responsibility just so he can feel virile. I'm very sorry they've washed up in midlife with these crises of masculinity, but it's really not my problem to solve. I've got plenty to take care of on my own, thanks.
Anyway -- I don't put up with all that kind of behavior anymore, which has shocked a few guys since. I'm not mean about it, I just say, "Here's what I see and it's not something you can do with me." I'm not interested in the justifications and excuses and the "meet me halfway"s. The one guy who I gave a lot of passes on the behavior -- I knew he had AS and wasn't aware of a lot of what he was doing, but in the end, when he wanted to come live with us, I told him no, I'm sorry, this can't happen. That's not "making a guy grovel for a relationship" -- that's just being unwilling to be treated badly. If a guy doesn't want a relationship with me because of it, that's fine. And if he's looking for a woman who'll just...do for him, I guess, and put up with all the crap, then good luck? Because I don't see where the payoff is, unless it's something you enjoy doing.
SeigiCitadel24
Butterfly
Joined: 1 Oct 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 15
Location: Australia (Goukoku)
Well I may not be able to close threads here, but despite my constructive criticism and all as an OP I have made my decision.
Being as skeptical of things that claim to know about something, I am going to dismiss the MRA/PUA/manosphere as... unnecessary. Sure it may have helped some men here but I prefer to carve my own path without the advice of dating coaches and con artists. To me the MGTOWs sound like lazy, apathetic and closed-minded man-children by how they view the world as if it were all B&W. That's not me by any means and no matter how 'deluded' I may be as perceived by some, I consider them just as deluded. I am neither a feminist nor a masculinist; I don't play these nonsensical games.
So to those who are in favour of MRAs and MGTOWs and the like, thanks but no thanks. For tarantella, thanks for pointing out that not all women are alike. This conversation has been funny and informative. Thanks everyone.
All Under Scrutiny!
Dude, we are ALL sick of being insulted but that's life. Either put up or shut up and ignore the diatribe.
Wow, what a classy comeback.
You'd never know that from feminist PR. When I worked at a nonprofit, one of the other NORGs in our building was a women's group. They had a poster outside their office with a picture of a pushy looking guy with a thought-bubble that said "She didn't say no," and an apprehensive looking woman with a bubble that read "I didn't say yes." I found that pretty insulting. I worked hard to give the girls that I'd dated every chance to be responsible for their end of the relationship, and only about half of them were willing.
Ah yes, the feminist dribble. Seriously, I am not for or against feminism, nor am I for or against the MRA. So what if you found it insulting? Of course there are going to be problems between sexes, but again that's life.
You should go over to this thread and tell them that, just as bluntly: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt259526.html
Good for you, however that is biased on the fact that it filled YOUR vacuum. Sure it may help you understand women in western cultures, but do not paint the women of other cultures under the same brush.
You missed the point of most of it. It's not there to tell guys what a specific woman is going to do. Even she may not know that. It's there to give guys some ideas of what women *might* be thinking so that they don't step into something completely unprepared. It's still your job to decide whether any of those patterns fit a specific person's behavior.
And you think I am one of those people being indoctrinated by these 'feminist' sites? Right...
Well, you did tell me to "put up or shut up," and I haven't seen you write anything like that in response to WRAs, so it does seem that you're beholden to them.
As I've said before, the MRAs that I've met know a lot more about feminism than vice versa. They've read feminist authors like Dwarkin. They do outreach at campus events and take critical questions from women's studies majors. They tolerate lots of abuse from people who've never bothered to hear them out (and who still implausibly claim to be liberal).
Last edited by NobodyKnows on 24 Jun 2014, 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Truth: a term that is twisted by the realities of those who claim to know what they are doing"
I disagree. Truth is wrung from dealing with that reality. There are perceptions of course, but I'm advocating learning how to deal with women as a skill, like basketball. I believe beige phillip does this in his podcast as he admits that it requires attention, work, and standing up for yourself. I believe its hard to argue that doing something difficult in the real world is the easy way out.
"No matter how hard we try we are all going to misunderstand women."
Sounds more like just giving up to me. Of course you'll misunderstand them, that doesn't mean you can't try to understand their motivations.
"So in other words women are basically objects"
I disagree. I'm advocating learning how to be with them and not get pulled around by them. I don't want to date a pencil/
"there are women who prefer hanging out with men and sometimes they DO want to be treated like men. So not all women are the same, that means not all are going to be taken by pick-up lines"
Correct, but can you tell the difference of what they want when? That is what the mentioned podcast is about.
"don't insult my intelligence that by discovering things for myself is great for emotions and such"
I was trying to imply that working with and learning how to talk and act with women is a skill.
"someone claiming to 'know all about women'. Better to be stupid than to act like an arrogant ass"
I didn't say that you must listen to me. I'm not the one with the knowledge. I believe you are mistaken in thinking that because you've had experience that you are an expert, and that somehow you can not benefit from considering changing your tactics or learning practical skills to make yourself better.
I am trying to express that I am not to force you to believe as I do, but I know it beneficial to those with low social skills to approach a situation differently.
"To be frank I would be more focused on what I am into and on the welfare of my family and friends; the opposite sex should be the least of my worries. Sure we need confidence and all but the harsh reality is that life goes on. The truth that you hold is your truth and ONLY your truth"
I disagree. You have already had experience so you must remember the mistakes you've made if any. Or maybe things just worked out fine for you. If the truth I hold is only mine, then isn't yours only yours? You wouldn't hire someone based on that. I am discussing practical knowledge and application, I don't desire to lord over anyone by forcing them to accept opinions. I want the guys here to look at reality and better themselves to get what they want out of life, which is why I love that podcast. Before that, women scared me. It helped me alot.
"So what if I make a wrong move, I just pick myself up and move on. Picking up women is not my thing and I rather be approached than to approach. That's me and if that's a problem, well that's just tough."
Being a better person and advancing yourself and asking 'why' is a very personal thing. I have no business telling you what to do.
"So thanks for the advice but I would rather be a skeptical man than a gullible man. If life as a man is all just about women then life is not worth living at all! Society is to blame for the confidence issues and all."
I'm a skeptical person as well. I don't care all about women, thats not the point, its learning how to be with them instead of just winging it and not knowing what you're doing. Even if society is 100% to blame as people we have the responsibility to fend for ourselves and find our own way in the world.
As to tarantell64:
"Desurage: Actual woman speaking. Your leader is a great entrepreneur making skin off a lot of frustrated, confused, inexperienced guys. But holy sh**, is he peddling a load of crap to you guys. Granted, it's a load that makes you feel good. But this stuff is...nothing to do with reality. I'm sorry."
I disagree. I do not know if you have listened to his podcasts, or you have misunderstood, but the commentary he has is based on his countless years of experience with women. He predicts them to a T constantly.
"Women are people. That's all."
Yes. Of course.
"If there's a major difference, it's that we don't have a world of threatening men around telling us that we have to behave in particular ways or we're p*****s and thus great targets for beatings and ostracization. (We do have threatening men around, but that's not the message we get from them.)"
There are differences genetically, culturally, and environmentally. Are you telling me these do not exist? I understand that the common thought is men and women are and must be entirely equal in mind and spirit, but I cannot accept this as the case. If I were to act the same way I do to men to women then things will not go as I want them to.
"I would suggest you tell the threatening men to piss off and go live your own life, by your own values. But there is no "women want". Because we're people. Like you."
Of course. Thats not the point. Men want things too, in general. I look to your 2nd post and there is plenty there that you want. You want a decent guy who is at least as responsible and grown up as you, if not more.
Beigephillip advocates men to not be losers. You are doing right by yourself by not accepting men who merely want a woman around. As men, we need to act better if we want womens respect and love. That is my entire point. MRA/manosphere/redpill are not what I am advocating. Those are extremes where the person blames a group in general for their faults instead of accepting reality and dealing with it logically.
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