WTF is up with this "entitled to sex" meme?

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CommanderKeen
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10 Jun 2014, 6:21 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
OP, you're totally wrong. The world's full of guys who want sex but know they're not entitled, so here's what they don't do:

-whine about it
-needle their girlfriends about it
-get angry when it doesn't show up as an option today despite ____________
-make dates that are all about the "big finish"
-keep score
-develop inane and offensive "evolutionary theories" to explain why the girl's not putting out.

They just keep it in their pants and if the girl shows interest they show some back and let her lead a bit, and ask questions about what she wants and whether this is all right etc., and if she wants to stop, they stop. And he jerks off a lot. Wanna know a secret? Women do the same thing.

You are coming off very mean. Why wouldn't he be upset? Whine? Everyone has to vent now and again, I'm sure you've "Whined" about things as well. This isn't really something you tell someone who has low self esteem, it just comes off mean and insensitive.



NobodyKnows
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10 Jun 2014, 6:26 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
OP, you're totally wrong. The world's full of guys who want sex but know they're not entitled, so here's what they don't do:

-whine about it


They're no more infantile than the princesses who've been surly ever since the economy stopped spewing free loot. Here's a reality check: When a retired surveyor or a preschool teachder can still afford to spend $1,000 every year on cable television, buy the newest iPad and drive a new car, there is no economic disaster. If somebody wants more than that, they can make it themselves.



starvingartist
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10 Jun 2014, 6:38 pm

CommanderKeen wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
OP, you're totally wrong. The world's full of guys who want sex but know they're not entitled, so here's what they don't do:

-whine about it
-needle their girlfriends about it
-get angry when it doesn't show up as an option today despite ____________
-make dates that are all about the "big finish"
-keep score
-develop inane and offensive "evolutionary theories" to explain why the girl's not putting out.

They just keep it in their pants and if the girl shows interest they show some back and let her lead a bit, and ask questions about what she wants and whether this is all right etc., and if she wants to stop, they stop. And he jerks off a lot. Wanna know a secret? Women do the same thing.

You are coming off very mean. Why wouldn't he be upset? Whine? Everyone has to vent now and again, I'm sure you've "Whined" about things as well. This isn't really something you tell someone who has low self esteem, it just comes off mean and insensitive.


i can tell you, from personal experience with my ex-fiancé, that whining for sex is pretty much the least sexy thing a person can do. if you are looking for a guaranteed way to turn your wife/girlfriend off, tell them in a whiny voice that you want more sex. begging your woman/man for sex in the same voice that a 6 year old begs for a candy bar is just not hot-making at all. tone is very very important in such discussions in a relationship.



CommanderKeen
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10 Jun 2014, 6:47 pm

starvingartist wrote:
CommanderKeen wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
OP, you're totally wrong. The world's full of guys who want sex but know they're not entitled, so here's what they don't do:

-whine about it
-needle their girlfriends about it
-get angry when it doesn't show up as an option today despite ____________
-make dates that are all about the "big finish"
-keep score
-develop inane and offensive "evolutionary theories" to explain why the girl's not putting out.

They just keep it in their pants and if the girl shows interest they show some back and let her lead a bit, and ask questions about what she wants and whether this is all right etc., and if she wants to stop, they stop. And he jerks off a lot. Wanna know a secret? Women do the same thing.

You are coming off very mean. Why wouldn't he be upset? Whine? Everyone has to vent now and again, I'm sure you've "Whined" about things as well. This isn't really something you tell someone who has low self esteem, it just comes off mean and insensitive.


i can tell you, from personal experience with my ex-fiancé, that whining for sex is pretty much the least sexy thing a person can do. if you are looking for a guaranteed way to turn your wife/girlfriend off, tell them in a whiny voice that you want more sex. begging your woman/man for sex in the same voice that a 6 year old begs for a candy bar is just not hot-making at all. tone is very very important in such discussions in a relationship.

Did I say it wasn't? No I didn't. You keep assuming things. The way she phrased it was mean. She could of wrote something like "Well girls get turned off by that sort of thing.", not oh don't whine. The guy is obviously upset.



CommanderKeen
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10 Jun 2014, 7:18 pm

starvingartist wrote:
CommanderKeen wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
CommanderKeen wrote:
If we're going to go this route, we can argue that women feel entitled to a free dinner. If women feel that men who take them out aren't entitled to sex, that's fine, but they themselves shouldn't feel entitled for the man to pay their way on a date, atleast not until they are actually dating.


the 1950s called--they want their ridiculously outdated sexist gender roles and expectations back, as well as all unsubstantiated generalisations about the ladies. :roll:

edit* --go dutch or go home. :lol:

Uh huh, apparently you haven't met the type of girls I have. Did I say all women are like this? Of course they're not, but I've met enough girls that feel they are self entitled. It's not just men that can feel self entitled.


could it be you're choosing the women you go out on dates with based on the wrong criteria? --because the ones who are like how you describe usually look and act a certain way and are easy enough to avoid, unless you like the way they look but not the way they act. then you have yourself a dilemma.....and i think it's a dilemma that many people share. pretty on the outside does not always translate to pretty on the inside; looks can be very deceptive. try going out with girls that are more suited to your personality and values--girls that want to be partners, not pets, and want to work and pay their own way in life, if that is what is important to you.

Well I have aspergers like many others on this forum, so over time I had to learn to read women and avoid the bad ones. Also, the area I live in is really bad the women, as well as the men are very rude and very selfish. Of course I know a pretty face isn't everything, that's just common sense. I don't look for women who are just pretty.



starvingartist
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10 Jun 2014, 8:12 pm

CommanderKeen wrote:
Well I have aspergers like many others on this forum.....


no way, me too! what a coincidence.

CommanderKeen wrote:
Of course I know a pretty face isn't everything, that's just common sense. I don't look for women who are just pretty.


the problem is that a lot of people, men and women, think that a pretty face isn't everything--but it is the most important thing, often indispensible when other traits like honesty or integrity are optional. i personally am tired of meeting men who are extremely concerned about the looks of the women they date, but don't wish to be judged by said women (or any other women) by the same criteria because that's "unfair" somehow. it's a tired double standard.



CommanderKeen
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10 Jun 2014, 8:36 pm

starvingartist wrote:
CommanderKeen wrote:
Well I have aspergers like many others on this forum.....


no way, me too! what a coincidence.

CommanderKeen wrote:
Of course I know a pretty face isn't everything, that's just common sense. I don't look for women who are just pretty.


the problem is that a lot of people, men and women, think that a pretty face isn't everything--but it is the most important thing, often indispensible when other traits like honesty or integrity are optional. i personally am tired of meeting men who are extremely concerned about the looks of the women they date, but don't wish to be judged by said women (or any other women) by the same criteria because that's "unfair" somehow. it's a tired double standard.

The reason I stated I have aspergers is because, you implied that identifying a certain type of woman comes naturally. Obviously it wouldn't for somebody with aspergers. Over time like many others, I have learned how to identify women whom I would not want to be with and it doesn't matter how good they look. Also there is nothing wrong with not being attracted to a woman because of her appearance. Just as it's alright for a woman not to be attracted to a man because of the same thing. It might not be the most important quality, but it is a factor.



Last edited by CommanderKeen on 10 Jun 2014, 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

foodeater
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10 Jun 2014, 8:41 pm

the "entitled to sex" "meme" is the flip side / response to the "she was asking for it" "meme", i think. if you look at the statistics on rape, entitlement is unfortunately alive and well. i feel people are justified in being wary of what they perceive to be expressions of entitlement because entitlement is one of the main justifications people have of doing bad stuff to other people.

it's sick to think about how many people express want of money, but how few people commit crimes to get it in comparison.

without knowing what you actually said i dunno though. maybe ask the person who called you entitled? i'm curious what you thought telling other people you want sex or dates would accomplish? what response were you expecting?

in the case of sex or dating you actually are dependent on another person, so expressing wishes for something from someone else for the sole reason that you want it is inherently dehumanizing because you aren't recognizing another person's agency in the matter. if you recognize that you are having a fantasy i don't know, i only imagine things that couldn't be objective reality because that's what makes them interesting to me. seems like in imagining a "better" reality you are making a negative comparison to your current situation and that would depress me unless i knew what to do to make that real and if i knew how to make it real i would be doing it not fantasizing about it. 8O but a lot of people do seem to blur reality to match their fantasies.

in a lot of ways i think people use "entitlement" as shorthand for saying you're thinking in a manner that makes you out to be helpless in the matter. when people perceive themselves as helpless they don't give themselves a lot of healthy options to address their feelings. when people feel helpless they generally continue to do nothing, increasing their own self perception of helplessness and worst case take extreme measures in order to regain a feeling of control or agency.

if a baby is helpless and if it's tired, hungry or bored, they eventually throw a tantrum. if you aren't demonstrating higher level problem solving than that people are going to express concern, i think. or for instance, if a person was seriously expressing a desire that they want old men never go around shirtless when it's hot out and potentially expressing agitation that it wasn't becoming reality? i would avoid that person because it's crazy talk.

something i notice is that a lot of people who say they want sex, or dates actually want emotional support, maybe external validation or they're just lonely. it doesn't mean they don't exist, but i've personally never met anyone that was happy in other areas of their life that complained about these things in a serious manner. (i don't think it's self sustaining to look for emotional support without being able to offer it yourself. it's not really a dating or sex thing at that point)

or maybe they're just horny. :lol: (tbh, i think being horny is a choice, that is if you aren't capable of solving this problem yourself you should practice more! :roll: if you can't blow your own mind how's that going to work out with another person?)

or maybe they want to meet interesting, fun, stimulating people? (again i see a lot of people express this without being so themselves.)

i've found that people that are capable of expressing those feelings in a contextually socially appropriate way are generally more likely to be able to address those feelings. if you address those feelings you'll probably end up with dates and/or sex. because they're feelings that everyone has, at different levels at different times. it's about putting yourself in situations where it's easier to be what you're feeling in the open and thus interacting with like minded people, without wanting something from someone, i think. which yeah is a turn off. there's enough of that in the world without choosing to let someone into your life that seems like they just want something from you.

if you make the effort to be what you want then you actually learn what that might look like in another person, i think.

feeling sorry for yourself is a choice and as long as you continue to make that choice it's likely you will continue to put yourself in situations make it easy for yourself to justify feeling that way. i've met people while i was feeling bad for myself and it was horrible! :lol: because felt bad for themselves too.

i've had friends that were sad sacks get into relationships where the other person was trying to be caring or nurturing like with a baby bird that fell out it's nest and they break up because the "nurturing" person didn't feel comfortable with them actually feeling better. they wanted to continue to care for them, it wasn't an evil thing it was just a role they felt comfortable and safe in. i had another friend that killed himself in part because he finally got a "hot" girlfriend and it didn't make his life magically better.

or some very sad people can get very angry. i've been on the receiving end of a sad person that starts feeling better about themselves, without putting in the work, and they just project that anger outward. it sucks. i think those extreme feelings are closely related. i suspect your "average person" probably recognizes this without having to experience it. so it's not "unfair" that they are cautious around a person that is expressing what seems like a lot of sadness with an inability to cope on their own, because it might turn on them.



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10 Jun 2014, 9:04 pm

starvingartist wrote:
CommanderKeen wrote:
If we're going to go this route, we can argue that women feel entitled to a free dinner. If women feel that men who take them out aren't entitled to sex, that's fine, but they themselves shouldn't feel entitled for the man to pay their way on a date, atleast not until they are actually dating.


the 1950s called--they want their ridiculously outdated sexist gender roles and expectations back, as well as all unsubstantiated generalisations about the ladies. :roll:

edit* --go dutch or go home. :lol:


I remember a long time ago when I was about 21 this woman and I were friends or at least I thought we were friends. She expected me to pay for her to go out to eat when we went out. I started questioning if she was just taking advantage of me. I felt like I was being taken advantage of. I asked her if we could go Dutch and I pay for my own food and she pay for her own food.

Wow oh Wow! She had a meltdown with me and was yelling at me. I was called an as*hole and was on the receiving end of a verbal assault. I felt like I did something and felt bad. Suffice it to say she quit talking to me.

I didn't believe I did anything wrong. Did I? If I did, what would've been a better way to approach it? Or was she wrong for believing that she felt entitled for me to pay for her to eat?



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10 Jun 2014, 9:04 pm

foodeater wrote:
it's sick to think about how many people express want of money, but how few people commit crimes to get it in comparison.


8O ?????! !! !! Where on Earth did you get that "fact?"



CommanderKeen
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10 Jun 2014, 9:12 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
CommanderKeen wrote:
If we're going to go this route, we can argue that women feel entitled to a free dinner. If women feel that men who take them out aren't entitled to sex, that's fine, but they themselves shouldn't feel entitled for the man to pay their way on a date, atleast not until they are actually dating.


the 1950s called--they want their ridiculously outdated sexist gender roles and expectations back, as well as all unsubstantiated generalisations about the ladies. :roll:

edit* --go dutch or go home. :lol:


I remember a long time ago when I was about 21 this woman and I were friends or at least I thought we were friends. She expected me to pay for her to go out to eat when we went out. I started questioning if she was just taking advantage of me. I felt like I was being taken advantage of. I asked her if we could go Dutch and I pay for my own food and she pay for her own food.

Wow oh Wow! She had a meltdown with me and was yelling at me. I was called an as*hole and was on the receiving end of a verbal assault. I felt like I did something and felt bad. Suffice it to say she quit talking to me.

I didn't believe I did anything wrong. Did I? If I did, what would've been a better way to approach it? Or was she wrong for believing that she felt entitled for me to pay for her to eat?

She was out of line. Personally I would have just left and found a place to eat by myself.



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10 Jun 2014, 9:19 pm

NobodyKnows wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
OP, you're totally wrong. The world's full of guys who want sex but know they're not entitled, so here's what they don't do:

-whine about it


They're no more infantile than the princesses who've been surly ever since the economy stopped spewing free loot. Here's a reality check: When a retired surveyor or a preschool teachder can still afford to spend $1,000 every year on cable television, buy the newest iPad and drive a new car, there is no economic disaster. If somebody wants more than that, they can make it themselves.


Um...and this makes things better how?
Neither should go on. (Also, why suddenly attack women preferentially for "being surly ever since the economy stopped spewing free loot"? Last I heard, men overspend, too.)

Also, all that spending goes on because of insane credit rules, not because the economy's in dandy shape. Turn back the clock on banking laws, and the rot's suddenly much more visible.

Oh, I get it. There was criticism of some men's behavior, so it's important to suddenly get nasty and slam some women, because it's a battle to the death against...something. And the thread had nothing to do with outlining what "feels entitled to sex" looks like.



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10 Jun 2014, 9:22 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
CommanderKeen wrote:
If we're going to go this route, we can argue that women feel entitled to a free dinner. If women feel that men who take them out aren't entitled to sex, that's fine, but they themselves shouldn't feel entitled for the man to pay their way on a date, atleast not until they are actually dating.


the 1950s called--they want their ridiculously outdated sexist gender roles and expectations back, as well as all unsubstantiated generalisations about the ladies. :roll:

edit* --go dutch or go home. :lol:


I remember a long time ago when I was about 21 this woman and I were friends or at least I thought we were friends. She expected me to pay for her to go out to eat when we went out. I started questioning if she was just taking advantage of me. I felt like I was being taken advantage of. I asked her if we could go Dutch and I pay for my own food and she pay for her own food.

Wow oh Wow! She had a meltdown with me and was yelling at me. I was called an as*hole and was on the receiving end of a verbal assault. I felt like I did something and felt bad. Suffice it to say she quit talking to me.

I didn't believe I did anything wrong. Did I? If I did, what would've been a better way to approach it? Or was she wrong for believing that she felt entitled for me to pay for her to eat?


She was wrong. If you were both that young, though, she may just have been taught that the man always pays and that she's entitled to free eats by virtue of lucky genitalia, and not been swift enough to question why a vagina gets you a hamburger.



tarantella64
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10 Jun 2014, 9:41 pm

CommanderKeen wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
OP, you're totally wrong. The world's full of guys who want sex but know they're not entitled, so here's what they don't do:

-whine about it
-needle their girlfriends about it
-get angry when it doesn't show up as an option today despite ____________
-make dates that are all about the "big finish"
-keep score
-develop inane and offensive "evolutionary theories" to explain why the girl's not putting out.

They just keep it in their pants and if the girl shows interest they show some back and let her lead a bit, and ask questions about what she wants and whether this is all right etc., and if she wants to stop, they stop. And he jerks off a lot. Wanna know a secret? Women do the same thing.

You are coming off very mean. Why wouldn't he be upset? Whine? Everyone has to vent now and again, I'm sure you've "Whined" about things as well. This isn't really something you tell someone who has low self esteem, it just comes off mean and insensitive.


Because unless it's just a "damn, I am just so horny" sort of thing, the implication is that some chick belongs to turn up and give them sex. That it's reasonable to demand sex from the universe. Can I tell you? I would *adore* it if someone would show up and drive my daughter to camp. I hate driving, I'm scared of highways, I get the whole F=ma thing. I have trouble sleeping for a week before I have to do something like that. Having to do things like this makes my life very difficult. But I don't have the money to pay someone else to do it, and besides I ought to be the one to kiss her goodbye there, so okay, I'll do it. Until this very moment, when I was casting about for things to whine about, it had *never occurred to me* that the universe owes me a chauffeur. But the tenor of the sex-whining is "it's not fair", as though "fair" would mean the universe turns up with a porkable babe. Meaning really that some woman should unzip for him. The wheedling that goes into it is really not good.



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10 Jun 2014, 11:24 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
NobodyKnows wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
OP, you're totally wrong. The world's full of guys who want sex but know they're not entitled, so here's what they don't do:

-whine about it


They're no more infantile than the princesses who've been surly ever since the economy stopped spewing free loot. Here's a reality check: When a retired surveyor or a preschool teachder can still afford to spend $1,000 every year on cable television, buy the newest iPad and drive a new car, there is no economic disaster. If somebody wants more than that, they can make it themselves.


Um...and this makes things better how?
Neither should go on. (Also, why suddenly attack women preferentially for "being surly ever since the economy stopped spewing free loot"?


Why attack men preferentially for needling their SOs or being angry when they don't get what they want? Would you like some examples of women doing exactly the same thing? I have many.

Quote:
Last I heard, men overspend, too.)


Women in the US actually spend almost three times what men do. IIRC, the fraction of spending decisions controlled by women is =>70%. You can counter (as some on WP have) that some of that spending shouldn't count because it's for household expenses, but the stereotype of the housewife running all of the errands doesn't work when both partners work full time, when they shop by hitting all-in-one stores like Target and Walmart on the way home, and when they buy essentials online using their work computers. Besides that, a lot of feminists arguments discount what husbands spend on their families on the grounds that the women don't control it. The fact that a purchase is non-elective and non-recreational no matter who swipes the card doesn't stop them from claiming that the man "controlled" it. Why give women a free pass?

That last point is also a good example of "keeping score." When you expect a guy to do something (like supporting a family), then pick it apart for little flaws that could make it seem less valuable, why shouldn't he keep his own tally?