so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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starvingartist
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14 Jul 2014, 7:38 pm

Eureka13 wrote:

Stargazer43 wrote:

I may get some flak for this, but I would argue that men have to be just as safe as women when out and about alone. If someone puts a gun to your head to rob you, it doesn't really matter what gender you are or how much self defense training you have. I've been mugged before, and had family members who were beaten up by people after their wallets.

I don't disagree with this at all. Gun to head >> my wallet or any other of my belongings. I'd be much less inclined to fight back, however, over them wanting my wallet than I would be them attempting to rape me.

i agree as well in that i think it's reasonable for men to be concerned about their safety when out alone, i certainly wouldn't argue against it.

onewithstrange
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14 Jul 2014, 8:08 pm

starvingartist wrote:

so what you're saying is, so far you haven't been wrong. good thing you're willing to risk being wrong and making someone uncomfortable for the sake of "romance." :roll:

I do what makes me happy. You do what makes you happy.

starvingartist wrote:

the guy who wrote that other thread really did think that his friend was sending him signals that she wanted him to kiss her, so he kissed he because he was convinced she wanted him to. he was wrong.

So, what, I'm Brianruns10 now? You do know the male gender is made up of individuals, right? Just checking. Let's talk about Brianruns10, shall we? He met a woman friend of his for a walk. When they were bidding each other farewell, they hugged. Brianruns10 misinterpreted her body language during the hug and thought it meant she wanted more, so he kissed her. He kissed her on the basis of nothing else besides her body language. I'm not denigrating Brianruns10, because he simply didn't have the social experiences to know better, and that's okay. But let me be clear: I would never try to kiss a friend who I invited out for just a walk on the basis of only her body language. I know better; that falls so far below my personal threshold for certainty. Kindly stop assuming I don't want to be caught in an awkward situation like that.

starvingartist wrote:

this is what you risk when you don't ask and just assume you are right and that she wants it. you risk being wrong and kissing someone who doesn't want you to. it's very simple to avoid that risk by saying something first like "i'd really like to kiss you right now".

Risk isn't either 1 or 0. (In some cases, probability can take on an infinite number of values.) Likewise, risk can be avoided many ways. Even if you ask permission first, you're still not completely negating the risk. What if she turns around and claims assault anyway? What if she claims she was confused, or emotionally vulnerable, and you took advantage of her? You want to avoid risk, you best stay home. All we're able to do is minimize risk. You (I presume) minimize risk by explicitly asking someone if you may kiss them. That's fine. I have my own value system by which I minimize risk when making a move. I've never been wrong. If I ever am, I may change it, but as it is, I'm comfortable with the space I give women in dating and my levels of respect towards them. If it doesn't please you, a feminist who doesn't believe men can intelligently read non-verbal signals, then... well that's no big loss, right?

starvingartist wrote:

and my suggesting this is making you see red and get enraged?

This is how tarantella implied I am: I'm in an elevator. The doors slide open and a girl is standing there, waiting to get on. I say: "Oh, hello there. You may want to wait for the next one because if you get in now, I just don't know what I'm going to do to you! I have so little self-control and so little respect for you as a human being that I may as well be raping you right now!" Are you seriously defending tarantella for saying what she did?

Neither me nor the male gender as a whole is being given any credit, either by you or tarantella, for being able to correctly interpret body language or situations. You can spout off however many examples to the contrary, but making that sweeping statement against all males is sexism. It's sexism, and you're guilty of it. You, a feminist supposedly opposed to gender inequality. You may want to read a bit less about misogyny and start catching up on this thing called misandry.

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KB8CWB
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14 Jul 2014, 8:26 pm

Looking back, one of the main reasons I married (2x) was to "fit in" with my peers. Yes it can be nice having a partner to do things with but never really worked out that well for me. Seems between my poor communication skills, shyness, and being a bad judge of character led me into rather poor relationships. Both I had married had their issues, as well as I have issues. They fell apart mainly due to my poor communication skills, and hating the general social life. I kept getting drug off to family events and basically being shunned because I evidently come across as odd. After so long putting up with the looks, glances, and whispers I just stopped attending them and stayed at home. Made things even worse but I don't deal with crowds well and the noise and over stimulation that comes with them. To be honest, there were many other issues however they don't apply here at WP and probably nothing unusual about them anyway.

Initially both my partners and I got along well. I am a very thoughtful romantic and they loved the attention. I was a thoughtful lover as well making sure they were pleased. But to be honest, sex did NOTHING for me. No, I am not gay I am very hetro just the sex thing never did anything for me. I like shared activities, cuddling, sharing time together, etc. But after awhile they put 2 + 2 together and noticed I really didn't desire them in a sexual way. That put some real strains on the relationships as well. They took my lack of interest as something personal, not just due to my lack of desire for anyone. At the time I didn't realize there was a label as such for it however now I know I am an asexual hetro romantic. Also I was undiagnosed at the time so my seemingly odd behaviour just added fuel to the fire I suppose.

Am I opposed to another relationship? NO as long as knowing what I do now would be acceptable to the lady (doubtful). I plan on traveling extensively in the near future being what is called a full-timer bumming about the country in a motor home. Find a nice place and stay awhile until I became bored with it or the weather got such that I wanted a warmer clime. Then too, not many would put up with my hobbies and I don't plan on giving them up. I like my alone time to pursue what interests me and to be happy I require this alone time. When you start adding all of this up, it is pretty clear I am best being alone.

Worse yet, being a poor judge of character I doubt I would do any better today choosing a suitable partner as I did them. Don't get me wrong, the companionship would be nice I just don't see it happening. My best bet is just to get another dog I suppose as my last two passed 3+ years ago. And NO, I am not trying to compare a lady to a dog. Just in my case I think it would be a wiser choice.

em_tsuj
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14 Jul 2014, 8:42 pm

tarantella64 wrote:

em_tsuj wrote:

tarantella64 wrote:

okay, so, em_tsuj, you see it as an envy/keeping-up thing, not a social-pressure/social-judgement thing?

Right. I think the pressure is internal. I think it comes from comparing oneself with ones peers. I recognize that there is social pressure, but I think that young women feel the exact same pressure. I am not convinced that males experience it more than females.

On Wrongplanet, things are skewed because males outnumber females.

I see women talk about some of the same frustrations (not being able to get a relationship off the ground) but not as many because there are not as many female posters.

I see frustration, but not anger, and not the chronic "s/he shot me down".

I also see a lot of undergrads at an okay-but-not-great university. (Midwest, btw, not CA.) It just doesn't seem to me that the girls are all that anxious to get into relationships. To an extent that surprises me, because this was much more important when I was in college. But many of the girls I talk to are quite content to wait - they're busy with activities and school and competing for grad-school spots, and somewhere off in the hazy future, when they've got themselves established somewhere, family. There's almost a sense of irritation about it, like the boys will just waste their time. These are science girls, and they've got very rigorous coursework, but...yeah, even the arts girls seem very "well, I don't see the point, boyfriend's off to Europe for the semester so we might as well break up". Couples are very much the exception, which totally wasn't true when I was in college. Even though we thought we were pretty serious people.

I see how you could come to that conclusion (that men put more pressure on each other than women). All I can say is I am very proud of those young ladies.

starvingartist
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14 Jul 2014, 8:54 pm

onewithstrange wrote:

Neither me nor the male gender as a whole is being given any credit, either by you or tarantella, for being able to correctly interpret body language or situations. You can spout off however many examples to the contrary, but making that sweeping statement against all males is sexism. It's sexism, and you're guilty of it. You, a feminist supposedly opposed to gender inequality. You may want to read a bit less about misogyny and start catching up on this thing called misandry.

you do remember that we're having this discussion on a forum for people on the autistic spectrum, who tend to sometimes have difficulty with things like non-verbal communication and reading body language, facial expressions, and other such things, right?

it's not about all males--it's about the fact that a lot of males here asking for advice have these issues of having trouble with non-verbal communication, and therefore i think it's a bad idea to present kissing before asking as a good idea. but if you want to keep on thinking i hate men and getting enraged about it, that is your prerogative.

em_tsuj
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14 Jul 2014, 8:58 pm

Laddo wrote:

onewithstrange wrote:

Tarantella once implied I was a rapist because I tend not to explicitly ask before going in for a kiss. Sure, Alex, that's some real amusing sh** right there.

Oh my... That's not cool. People shouldn't make implications like that without realising the potential consequences. So spontaneous passion is now another reason why men are all piles of sh**, is it? Right. Tarantella just hates men. It's not even thinly disguised.

That's not cool. I've seen her post a lot of stuff but none of it implied that she hates men. What's your beef with Tarantella?

em_tsuj
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14 Jul 2014, 9:01 pm

Laddo wrote:

Oh I see. Yeah, I agree with her on that then if the woman in question was unaware he was going to do it and unwilling. I have a bit of a bad habit of taking forum posts a little too literally sometimes and going in all guns blazing without checking my corners first. That's a bit of a mixed metaphor, but oh well. It's really not my intention to alienate people on this forum because I really am not a sexist

Nevermind the previous post. It seems you have thought about it and calmed down a bit.

em_tsuj
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14 Jul 2014, 9:09 pm

KB8CWB wrote:

Thanks for sharing your experience.

onewithstrange
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14 Jul 2014, 9:49 pm

starvingartist wrote:

I've been very clear that I don't have this problem. I know where I am, I know what I've said. But thanks for trying to remind me.

starvingartist wrote:

it's not about all males--it's about the fact that a lot of males here asking for advice have these issues of having trouble with non-verbal communication, and therefore i think it's a bad idea to present kissing before asking as a good idea. but if you want to keep on thinking i hate men and getting enraged about it, that is your prerogative.

I'm enraged that you're defending what tarantella said. Suggesting a guy who makes moves based on non-verbal communication can't do so without having some sort of impulse control or mental health problems or no respect for women is appalling and undercuts the male gender. And.... surprise! Denigrating the male gender denigrates all males. If we had a Venn diagram with one circle being the male gender and the other circle being all males and indicated the intersection of them... well, you get the picture. Whether you hate men or not, you've been portraying sexism without either knowing it or not caring. I still haven't heard any acknowledgement from you that some guys can successfully pull off reading non-verbal cues and know what they're doing.

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Eureka13
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14 Jul 2014, 10:05 pm

Of course some men can read nonverbal cues. Of course some AS men can read nonverbal cues. However, many of the men posting in this forum have acknowledged that they cannot. Is it wise of them to base their "moves" on nonverbal cues that they, self-admittedly, are not good at reading?

That's why "ask first" is a good rule of thumb for men who know they have difficulty reading nonverbal cues, or for those men who are not sure if they're good at it or not.

Also, it totally a non-issue when it comes to established relationships. Of course the couple is going to work out between them what cues, verbal and nonverbal, work for them.

Still, what's so hard about leading up to a kiss on a first date with a touch on the arm or shoulder, maybe a little hand holding, before going for the kiss? All that's being objected to here is either: a) kissing someone when you are not in a "designated romantic opportunity," i.e., a date; or b) planting a kiss on a first date without SOME obvious (and I do mean REALLY obvious) lead-in.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the sexiest thing any man has ever said to me on a first date was "I'd really like to kiss you." Points for both being a gentleman, AND a touch of romance.

sly279
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14 Jul 2014, 10:18 pm

Eureka13 wrote:

CommanderKeen wrote:

The biggest issue I see on this site is that sexism towards males on the site is largely ignored. As soon as a male makes a comment that is sexist, mildly sexist, or just a factual statement about his own preferences, for example I could say "I don't like big girls." and I'd probably be called sexiest or judged. The original poster's statement could come across alittle sexist, but I don't think she intended it that way. Someone pointed that out and another female member defended her. If it were the other way around and the OP were a male and posted something similar, he would probably be attacked by a lot of the female members of the site. Another thing I have noticed is that, male members will point out where female members have been sexiest, they will make a lot of good points, but then they themselves will make a sexiest remark towards women; thus defeating their whole point of making their argument to begin with. The hypocrisy on this site is astounding.

I have noticed this last bit as well. I think it may very well have to do with Aspies' tendency towards black-and-white thinking. The "trigger" words jump out, and the rest of a post is just skimmed because, obviously, if someone is using any of those kinds of words, then they must be <fill in the blank.> Every single thread that has blown up into genders wars starts the same way.

I've worked in male-dominated fields since I was in my early 20s, and have been subjected to sexism almost constantly. Still am. It's still way worse on here than anywhere else I've seen or heard. If no one here could potentially benefit from the "this is what sexist language is" examples, those of us who keep posting them would probably shut up about it.

Here are a couple of interesting Google finds:

In the UK: https://fullfact.org/articles/bad_and_d ... rime-28939

In the US: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/wo.txt

98% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by men. Where, exactly, is the so-called "equality" now?

but how many men report their attacks. I didn't. We aren't suppose to. we are suppose to man up and move on. not go running to the police cause some woman touched us sexually without asking.

onewithstrange
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14 Jul 2014, 10:30 pm

Eureka13 wrote:

Of course some men can read nonverbal cues

I know it. You know it. Let's hear it from starvingartist or tarantella.

Eureka13 wrote:

Still, what's so hard about leading up to a kiss on a first date with a touch on the arm or shoulder, maybe a little hand holding, before going for the kiss? All that's being objected to here is either: a) kissing someone when you are not in a "designated romantic opportunity," i.e., a date; or b) planting a kiss on a first date without SOME obvious (and I do mean REALLY obvious) lead-in.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with leading up to a kiss with some sort of light touch that indicates what the man intends. I'm past all this. I remember one time, when I was in her car and we were listening to her favorite band, I tucked her hair behind her hair and gauged her reaction before making any move. Other times, I've asked her (different her) status after I reached for her hand in a movie theater. My threshold really does lean towards obvious signals, but there's no such thing as an obvious signal to tarantella or apparently starvingartist. That's my issue. The lack of acknowledgement on their part that men can distinguish between different kinds of signals.

Eureka13 wrote:

Also, it totally a non-issue when it comes to established relationships...

But you see, that's still an issue for tarantella. Go back and read http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf261300-0-120.html if you don't believe me. Men must ask at all times lest they be accused of having no respect, etc. etc.

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Last edited by onewithstrange on 14 Jul 2014, 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheGoggles
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14 Jul 2014, 10:31 pm

You know, I've always kind of trended towards being sympathetic to social justicy things, but I've literally never heard anyone ask permission to kiss. Every time I've kissed someone, we just mashed our faces together and went for it. Depending on where Brianruns is on the spectrum, asking him to read non-verbal cues is like asking a blind guy to pilot a jet.

Ann2011
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15 Jul 2014, 12:09 am

The most romantic and passionate kiss I've ever had was when my partner was courting me and we were walking together. He grabbed my upper arm and stopped me, then pulled me towards him to kiss me. It was the best. If he had asked it would have not been as memorable or enjoyable.

CommanderKeen
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15 Jul 2014, 12:29 am

tarantella64 wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Eureka13 wrote:

By the time I pull my concealed-carry weapon out of wherever it might be concealed, it's probably too late. A knee to the groin or an elbow to the solar plexus is much quicker and easier to enact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser

Boo, as a woman who's actually been attacked violently -- while in excellent physical condition, in fact on my way home from the gym where I was working -- I can tell you that what you're advocating is complete BS. The best way to protect yourself, if you are a woman trying to defend yourself from violent men, is to live in a safe, well-policed area.

Because the police are always around no matter what and everyone has the luxury to be protected. No one lives out in the country, or royal areas. Everyone lives in expensive houses in expensive areas, around nothing but nice people and if they don't it is not hard to move at all, or expensive. Also everyone has no trouble finding a job these days, so working in a nice expensive area is pretty easy to do also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC-cTBmrdeo

Jono
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15 Jul 2014, 4:00 am

tarantella64 wrote:

So I'm reading all these threads about the pain of rejection and anger/bewilderment about having to go find women and make the first move, and suddenly it hits me: jesus, if I believed my value in the world had to do with having a man, and that it was imperative that I get me one, any acceptable one, so that I was forever on the prowl, I'd feel horrible too. Because of course men would reject me left and right.

I get horniness (I'm a middle-aged woman, believe me, we know), and I get loneliness (you want lonely? Have a toddler as your lone dinner companion for two years solid, you have to be lonely and responsible simultaneously), but I feel no social pressure to find a man. There isn't any imperative directing me to go learn the game and game the women till I win. So I wonder, if that were removed from young men's set of beliefs -- get women or be loser, be rated on quality of woman you can get -- how much fear of women, and anger at women, would evaporate?

If the ability to get dates/attract women played no role at all in your perceived social standing, guys, how do you think this would affect how you feel about women?

You've got it wrong. I don't want to "get a girl" because of social pressure, which I actually couldn't give a flying eff about, I want one because of the loneliness and because I don't want the emotional support I want only coming from my parents and family the whole time, as well as for love and companionship. Especially when absolutely everyone around me at my age is now already married and gat it from their spouses. You're only making assumptions that we want girlfriends because of social pressure, well you're wrong so you can take your stupid assumptions and go and stick them up your backside. Thank you.

Last edited by Jono on 15 Jul 2014, 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl.... Post Reply New Topic

so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....